FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: FirstEliminator on March 03, 2016, 01:43:02 AM
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Hey guys,
Some of you may have seen that I've been looking for a 428 for my 68 Colony Park wagon. I've been kicking around the idea of a stroker with a new 427 block. It would be a mild engine, need to have a smooth idle, run quiet. If I were to go with something in the 480 ci range, what would be the most appropriate cast iron cylinder heads to go with? Would 428 CJ heads be the best for this? Is there a cast iron alternative to the CJ that comes close? My desire is the wagon would be a cruiser that will idle with the A/C on in traffic while having some surprising pep.
thanks,
Mark
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You can do that with any cylinder head, as the idle/sound/vacuum/etc. is more of a function of the camshaft.
My next question is how much horsepower do you want? If you don't have high goals there, a CJ head would work fine, C4AE-G, C6AE-R, etc. If you want some horsepower with a cast iron head, then any of the above could be ported, or you could go with a MR head, HR, TP, etc.
Lots of options there.
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Hi Brent,
Thanks for the reply. I thought I remembered reading that the iron CJ head had about the same flow as unported Edelbrocks. The CJ head seems a bit sought after, harder to find and maybe pricier. Bare castings that need work on e-bay seem to start around 850. Not sure what the going rate is.
The horse power goals are 2nd to drivability. The bigger cubes should help with keeping it tame. I'd suspect cam duration at .050 between 210-225 with a 112 lobe separation. Is it possible to get over 400 hp without compromising the idle? In another thread guys were talking about "truck engines". I guess I am looking for a good truck engine.
Any power speculation on an engine that consists of:
480 cubes
unported or mildly ported cast iron heads
cam to idle relatively smooth--is hyd roller going to help?
later cast iron headers (if they fit)
not sure which intake
pump gas...cheap me likes 87 octane, but I'd go with 93 if the combo requires it.
hi 9 sec 1/4 mile----just kidding, mid 13's would be cool
guessing the wagon weighs near 4000
wide ratio C-6, stock convertor
2.80 gear
thanks,
Mark
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A 400 hp 480 inch engine would idle like a Honda Civic.
Depending on the cylinder head, you could potentially make 500 hp and meet all your requirements. A smooth idle to me may be radical to you.
The CJ heads with a good valve job will have similar performance to an out-of-the-box Edelbrock. With that being said, if you're looking for iron heads because you think it's going to be cheaper, you're probably going to have less money in a set of Edelbrocks than you will with the iron heads by the time you pay for them, have guide work done, new valves, valve job, cut for modern valve seals, decks cut, magnafluxed, etc.
The smoothness of the idle doesn't depend on whether the cam is a flat tappet or roller. You can get whatever you want out of each.
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Probably the main reason for cast iron heads is because I'd like to hang those heavy long tube cast iron headers. I fear the expansion and contraction of the aluminum to the CI manifolds might be too different causing leaks or stripped bolt holes. If I were running tubular headers I'd go with the Edelbrocks. I know there'd be a lot of money tied up in restoring iron heads. I guess my financial concern is spending money on CJ heads to find that there are non CJ heads that work as well or almost as well for way less money....or maybe something I already have.
Was wondering if hydraulic roller would have a more aggressive lobe, providing more torque without sacrificing the valve closed time to keep the smoother idle.
The other aspect of this engine is to do it once. Have an engine that may last 100,000 miles. The car will probably never see that in my lifetime. But, longevity is also important.
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At that power level, I don't think you'd tell any difference between a hydraulic roller and a hydraulic flat tappet.
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FirstEliminator,
On behalf of 482 cube truck engine owners (albeit a minority group), I urge you to set your hp goal a little higher than 400. The right engine combo will get you 500+hp and have a freaking strong idle with just a hint of rumble. My 482 makes over 90% of its torque between 2500 and 5000 rpm. Peak hp is at 5250. BTW, I didn't have a stop watch but hit 90mph in a 4500 lb truck in the 1/4 mile and I was no where near "balls out"...never passed 4500 rpm and had throttle to spare.
One thought about hanging cast iron headers on aluminum heads...Would 8 bolts and cast headers put more strain on the heads than what's on an aluminum intake while lifting the whole engine using a lift plate and 4 tiny carb studs? Seeing that gives me the willies but guys do it all the time.
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There's more of us truck engine guys out here than you might think.
Here's the dyno slip from my 4.125x 4.125 with D2 heads and a HR270 Comp.
Plenty strong for anything I need.
(Pay no attention to A/F ratios. My headers no sensors)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/turbohunter1/74%20engine%20build/Image-11.jpg)
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Hey, that sounds like pretty favorable info for my Colony Park build. 500 horse would move that car pretty darned well.
TJ, can you give me a run-down on your engine combo? Strong idle with a hint of rumble and peak hp at 5200 sounds like what I am looking for.
thanks,
Mark
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See if this link works...if not, just check the "FE engine dyno results" page on this forum. It's about the 4th one down.
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=2809.0
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A set of early iron heads can be done really good for under 1k. I've done this recently. They will out flow an out of the box Ed but you give up a little with the old combustion chambers. A pair of C1AE-A or C4AE-G castings are what I would start with. They're plentiful and cheap. Alexsparts.com has stainless 427 LR valves for $159.95 shipped. That's intake and exhaust. They have to be turned down to 2.15 intake and 1.65 exhaust so they don't kiss each other. A competent machine shop can easily handle the rest.
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A set of early iron heads can be done really good for under 1k. I've done this recently. They will out flow an out of the box Ed but you give up a little with the old combustion chambers. A pair of C1AE-A or C4AE-G castings are what I would start with. They're plentiful and cheap. Alexsparts.com has stainless 427 LR valves for $159.95 shipped. That's intake and exhaust. They have to be turned down to 2.15 intake and 1.65 exhaust so they don't kiss each other. A competent machine shop can easily handle the rest.
Sorry to butt-in on this thread. :)
Kevin, I'll be doing up a set of C6AE-R (14 bolt), do you recommend 40/45 deg intake valves in the size you show? Going on a stroked out 428 (462+). Also, I think I've read and understand the best areas to clean and open the ports on these but any recommendation are appreciated.
482? So are you taking a 428 block .055 over to achieve that? Is that safe on a stock block with such thin walls?
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482? So are you taking a 428 block .055 over to achieve that? Is that safe on a stock block with such thin walls?
No, it would be a new 427 block with a 4.25 crank. Although, if I found a 428 block I would do the 462.
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A set of early iron heads can be done really good for under 1k. I've done this recently. They will out flow an out of the box Ed but you give up a little with the old combustion chambers. A pair of C1AE-A or C4AE-G castings are what I would start with. They're plentiful and cheap. Alexsparts.com has stainless 427 LR valves for $159.95 shipped. That's intake and exhaust. They have to be turned down to 2.15 intake and 1.65 exhaust so they don't kiss each other. A competent machine shop can easily handle the rest.
Sorry to butt-in on this thread. :)
Kevin, I'll be doing up a set of C6AE-R (14 bolt), do you recommend 40/45 deg intake valves in the size you show? Going on a stroked out 428 (462+). Also, I think I've read and understand the best areas to clean and open the ports on these but any recommendation are appreciated.
677- I've never messed with a C6AE-R casting. But I have had several sets in my hands over the years. They always looked starved for port cross section to me. I wouldn't try to put such a big intake valve in that port. I'd go with CJ size valves with a 45.
Sorry for skankin' up your thread Mark.
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Sorry for skankin' up your thread Mark.
No worries at all. I'm learning. I think your post fits with the topic----cast iron heads---good and bad. Thanks for posting.
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If you are thinking cast iron heads and leaning to CJ's there is no reason not to just use common C4AE-G heads. You don't need the 14/16 bolt exhaust pattern for your full size, and if you upgrade the valves they are very similar to the CJ heads without the expensive cores. With a good valve job and a little bowl work I think you would be in them quite a bit cheaper than new Ed heads if you can find someone reasonable to do the work.
What area of the country are you in?
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Good to know, I think I might have a couple sets of those heads. I live in North Adams, Massachusetts. It's in the nortwest corner of Mass, near the Vermont and New York boarders. There isn't anyone local to me that I'd trust to properly prep an FE head. I'd rather just send out a set of core heads and an intake to an experienced FE builder. Along with the head porting and valve work, I'd think hardened exhaust seats would be needed. Then to balance the port flow on the intake.
thanks,
Mark
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A set of early iron heads can be done really good for under 1k. I've done this recently. They will out flow an out of the box Ed but you give up a little with the old combustion chambers. A pair of C1AE-A or C4AE-G castings are what I would start with. They're plentiful and cheap. Alexsparts.com has stainless 427 LR valves for $159.95 shipped. That's intake and exhaust. They have to be turned down to 2.15 intake and 1.65 exhaust so they don't kiss each other. A competent machine shop can easily handle the rest.
Sorry to butt-in on this thread. :)
Kevin, I'll be doing up a set of C6AE-R (14 bolt), do you recommend 40/45 deg intake valves in the size you show? Going on a stroked out 428 (462+). Also, I think I've read and understand the best areas to clean and open the ports on these but any recommendation are appreciated.
677- I've never messed with a C6AE-R casting. But I have had several sets in my hands over the years. They always looked starved for port cross section to me. I wouldn't try to put such a big intake valve in that port. I'd go with CJ size valves with a 45.
Sorry for skankin' up your thread Mark.
Thanks, I just brought it up because Mark was inquiring about CJ heads and I've always been told the C6AE-Rs were the poor man's CJ head. I can see why after looking at both, the Rs just require the so called "Fairlane lip" in the exhaust to be removed (very little work) to be almost identical to the CJs if the CJ valves are installed. The R's seem to be more readily available and less expensive than the CJs.
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I think your 4000lb estimate for a 68 Colony Park wagon might be half a ton shy of what it weighs. My ramp truck was 5400 and with a mild 428 went OK so 13's out of that beast should be easy with those parts.