FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: bn69stang on January 30, 2016, 11:39:06 AM
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Is a windage tray still needed with a moroso t pan , it has an oil control baffle built in ? ..Bud
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In my opinion, a good tray is still worthwhile on a good build. The Moroso pan baffle is more designed to stop oil from splashing back at the crank and to maybe catch a little of the oil being slung off the crank. But a good tray will help catch the majority of that oil and stop it from being slung around the crankcase. Probably not really worth it on your typical street build, but for a race engine I think the benefit is certainly there.
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Thanks for then feedback Doug , motor is out of car and back together with all my changes and just have a stock pan , front suspension is of as well . will get my new suspension on and car back on the ground and motor back in . thought of doing the t pan , and will have to trim my milodon windage tray .. Bud
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Windage tray is not necessary and you will have to weigh the risks/benefits of it for a street application. They may add a few ponies (but more than likely not) but they require two gaskets (double the chance for leaks) and some require some grinding/fitting.
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thank you for clearing that up , for us less educated , I have read a lot about this , but it is hard to get real world truth , thanks
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Thanks Brent , appreciate the input for sure .
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While we gotcha here Brent.
Aside from an extra quart of oil and the baffle, is there any real benefit to this pan over a stock pan?
I am considering taking an old stock pan and welding in some baffles in lieu of buying a new pan. Kinda on the fence about it.
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There are two versions of that T-sump Moroso pan. The more expensive one has trap doors in it for oil control while cornering/accelerating/decelerating.
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the part number for the first pan at $ 225.00 ish , is 20607 and just has the rear baffle and the 20608 is $ 305.00 ish and has the side and front baffling ..
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I have wondered if a windage tray kept some splash from getting to the cam
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the part number for the first pan at $ 225.00 ish , is 20607 and just has the rear baffle and the 20608 is $ 305.00 ish and has the side and front baffling ..
This is true, but you also need to use their oil pump pickup which is $75 vs the very cheap stock pan pickup.
I was figuring the Moreso T pan would cost me $315 vs reusing a stock pan with pickup which would be more like $15 and 20 minutes of test fitting/welding my own baffles.
Still on the fence on it.... it's easier to experiment with something like an intake that doesn't require pulling the engine to change :P
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Windage tray is not necessary and you will have to weigh the risks/benefits of it for a street application. They may add a few ponies (but more than likely not) but they require two gaskets (double the chance for leaks) and some require some grinding/fitting.
And with that particular pan and pickup, it mounted my oil pickup off the bottom of the pan quite a bit so using the windage tray and extra gasket
puts it even more distance from the bottom of the pan. I wish I could give exact numbers but I'd have to find my notes.
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How far off bottom of the pan , should we be looking for bout a half inch or so ?
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The two advantages of using the T pan is
a: You can carry more oil. Which allows better cooling and less chance of oil aeration.
b: More ground clearance.
I've used both the deep sump and the T, I think the deep sump looks more drag racy
and the T looks more road racy. :)
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How much deeper is the t pan vs a stock pan , i figured the extra oil capacity was in the t section , not the depth but could be wrong
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The T is pretty much the same depth as a stock pan just a lot wider.
Even the big Hookers will clear the T in a Mustang.
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Then you would think the stock pick up would work or be fine ? what you think Howie
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The screen in the stock pickup is quite fine and the screen holes in the after market is actually quite large.
It also has a bigger tube I think, although I would have to out to the shed to measure.
I will go out latter today and take a pic of a stock and a after market short pick up.
I know they are out there in the junk pile somewhere.
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I also had to reroute my power steering lines IIRC.
And it didn't clear the cross over tube underneath, had to space that down a bit.
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Thanks Howie , look forward to the info
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Thanks rcodecj , i am converting my manual steering to a uni steer power rack set up , have not ordered a t pan yet so i will have to do some research for sure ..
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Personally I believe the most important thing a properly working Windage Tray will do is greatly reduce aeration of the oil. Think of how aeration in a hydraulic system can screw things up - because you're using a compressible mixture of hyd oil and air vs straight hyd oil. Think of the fractions of a thousandth of an inch oil film (film strength) that's supporting the bearing surfaces of your bearings and shafts and then think IF those films were all essentially made of shaving cream.
A properly working tray slices away a concentrated film of oil & air from the hurricane force winds in the crankcase and sends it down into the basement/sump of pan. Under the tray you want it as calm as possible for the foamed up oil mixture to settle/separate before the oil's picked up by the pump. (the whole idea behind a dry-sump). Good oils have anti-foaming agents, but still the last thing you want is a large woven wire mesh or perforated screen (think hundreds of child's bubble wands) trying to separate the air under the tray from that twister in the crankcase. Remember Jon Kaase's finger in the tunnel ram? - how about eight pistons in that crankcase?
Just as they have crank scraper's that fit closely to the crank to shear away the cloud of oil clinging to the crank you want essentially cheese-grater blades to grab the oil and not the hurricane. If you channel a ton of wind down under the windage tray it's coming back up.
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Here is a MIT study performed by "Bridget" (obviously a serious car girl) on that exact question.
Which is better a screen or a flat tray.
Turns out neither.
Carry more oil.
http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/38713/166145859-MIT.pdf?sequence=2
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Here is a short after market pick up.
This is a Canton.
I opened a couple of boxes and this was what I found, I gave up after that. ::)
I used this in a stock type pan on a 390 I ran for a while.
I can say though that a stock type pick up is not as heavy duty this.
As for the windage tray. I have used the Ford tray for ever.
It does not make you faster or stop aeration but I like them and it makes me feel good. ::)
Pretty much every engine you buy today has a windage tray. It must do something. :P
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q128/ScotiaFE/Valve%20Covers/DSCN1620_zpsg02h8n4o.jpg) (http://s135.photobucket.com/user/ScotiaFE/media/Valve%20Covers/DSCN1620_zpsg02h8n4o.jpg.html)
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q128/ScotiaFE/Valve%20Covers/DSCN1621_zpssawlgusb.jpg) (http://s135.photobucket.com/user/ScotiaFE/media/Valve%20Covers/DSCN1621_zpssawlgusb.jpg.html)
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See what famed builder David Reher of R-M has to say (it's about 1/2 way down, go solid tray!)
http://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-5-rehers-rules-how-to-keep-your-engine-alive/
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Well there you go.
Just get enough goo on the gaskets.
These are the best oil pan gaskets.
And use studs.
I don't really see oil pan leaks.
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q128/ScotiaFE/RPM/DSCN1138_zpsxuwgo4e2.jpg) (http://s135.photobucket.com/user/ScotiaFE/media/RPM/DSCN1138_zpsxuwgo4e2.jpg.html)
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FWIW the inside depth of the COBRA T-Pan is 6-1/4"
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Best I can figure on MIT "Bridget"'s study is somebody needs to go back to the drawing board - when there's little difference between no tray and an assortment of trays it indicates those trays are all failures or ding next to nothing. You'd think a properly designed tray could do better than no tray.
Interestingly the vacuum dehydration and centrifuge oil conditioners used on turbine oil to remove the water from the oil all utilize extended surface area's to more easily remove the water. I'd bet the higher oil fill simply works better because there is less air entrained deeper in the oil. There's all sorts of studies on "droplets" moving up/down through oil.
There was a big controversy on the online dynamic measurement of particulates in lube oils caused by aeration that was showing up as particulates by the fancy state of the art particle counters.
I'd never really thought about a crankcase vacuum pump harming the oil being shoved into the pick-up.. makes sense though!
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Thanks for digging those pick ups out Howie , and i have those same gaskets ..
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See what famed builder David Reher of R-M has to say (it's about 1/2 way down, go solid tray!)
http://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-5-rehers-rules-how-to-keep-your-engine-alive/
Thanks Bob for the article.
Goes back to our accumulator thread also.
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Came to the discussion late
Only advice I have is with any tray or pan, be sure the main cap can dump the oil. You'll see the oil dump slot on the cap, there used to be some pans, gaskets, and.or trays that could block that dump and the main seal ends up being pressurized.
I haven't seen one in a long time, but every so often the pics come up on the FE forum. Look closely at the rear cap and you'll see the oval dump, just be sure the tray, gasket, or pan cannot block it
(http://diyford.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/911.jpg)
Note the notch in this original style
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s201/winr1/IMG_25602000x1500.jpg)
Note that there is no notch in this random internet picture . It doesn't mean it WILL block the dump, but be sure to check
(http://www.milodon.com/new-images/32000.gif)
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Thanks Ross , thats good to no know , as soon as it warms up a bit here so some sealant will set up lol
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Got one with a diamond scraper but can't use it now, got rid of my Comet, Ranger, Jeep and now my engine is going in my Bronco. The main concern with the pan is limited crossmember clearance and I was going to have to mess with my sway bar as I remember. It is not real deep but monster wide.