FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => Non-FE Discussion Forum => Topic started by: jayb on January 24, 2016, 10:25:23 PM
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This engine belong to my former trunk monkey, and is slated for his 31 Plymouth Drag Week car. 392 Hemi...
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/392hemi.jpg)
We'll be running this later in the week; I'll post the results when we have them.
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Nice! I guess your dyno does accept non-FE engines! Hah!
Can't quite read the end logo but what make are those aluminum 392 heads? Old 354-392 Hemi's are pretty cool in that they are simple and easy to work on. But man are those OEM iron heads h-e-a-v-y!
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They say Hot Heads. Seems appropriate for a Chrysler owner ;D
Cool engine. Hopefully you'll post some details about the cam and heads also. Should be interesting to see.
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I'll guess... 360hp. 300 with the funky 8 1bbl carbs intake.
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Is this the first non Ford Engine on the Dyno?
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Maybe since Jay has owned it. It had a nitro burning chainsaw motor on it at one time. It has just about seen everything.
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My first Drag Week co-pilot, Steve S, is a Chivverlay guy. I'm embarrassed to admit that I've had a couple of his small blocks on the dyno. On both occasions, he left the timing light clamp on the plug wire, and during the pull it slid down the wire, landed on the headers, and melted the clamp >:( My fault for not seeing that issue. I hate those engines...
Joel has also had his FAST series Hemi on my dyno. That thing looked bone stock, had the factory intake, carbs, and exhaust manifolds, and made over 700 horsepower. I was mildly impressed ;D
Joel is hoping for 700 out of this engine. The heads are probably up to it, they flowed 390 cfm on the intake. The manifold and carbs, on the other hand, might hold it back some. Jeff (JericoGTX) is just hoping it blows up, because he knows if it does, Joel will never have it ready for Drag Week this year, and he will owe Jeff a steak dinner ;D
Here are some more details on the engine. Displacement is 468 CI, bore is 390 size at about 4.07", stroke is 4.500". Cam is .700" lift on the intake, .650" on the exhaust, 261@ .050", 112 LSA. Compression is around 11.5:1, and the induction system is some long runner crossram with pot style carbs on it. I haven't seen the induction system yet, but my guess is that is what will be holding him back. One thing that will help are the headers, which are my SOHC dyno headers, with a few extra holes drilled in them to bolt to the aluminum hemi heads. The ports lined up nearly perfectly! I told Joel that he was one cam short of an SOHC ;D
When he has it nearly ready to run, we'll place our HP and torque bets...
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Maybe since Jay has owned it. It had a nitro burning chainsaw motor on it at one time. It has just about seen everything.
Yes,that Dyno's a slut :)
That engine is going to make the coupe a handful !!!!
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I do NOT want to see this thing blow up and DO want to see it ready for Drag Week. I wish I had more time and enthusiasm to help Joel on it. Just flat out in a funk to do anything right now.
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I know what will get you out of your slump. Let's reverse the bet. If the coupe makes it to Drag Week 2016, I'll buy you three dinners. If not, you buy me one.
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Cool...I like 392's and have done a few.Looks like its running the pump adaptors and using a BBC water pump..Last one I did was topped with Webers...Nice engines
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Ram style runners, eh? Maybe he's trying for the early Ramcharger's induction.
http://www.allpar.com/racing/high-mighty.html
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Maybe since Jay has owned it. It had a nitro burning chainsaw motor on it at one time. It has just about seen everything.
don't want to hijack, but search you tube for "extreme v8 chainsaw buick" read an article in hotrod 20 years ago about this saw. don't know if linky works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE0jnfJKNNU
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Not that you need one Joel but just in case, have you seen this?
BBM is about to be reproducing 392s.
I was over there a couple months ago and snapped a few spy pics of the prototype.
Kinda makes me wanna build a front engine digger. :)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/turbohunter1/Image%201_4.jpg)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/turbohunter1/Image_5.jpg)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/turbohunter1/Image%203_3.jpg)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/turbohunter1/Image%202_3.jpg)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/turbohunter1/Image%206_3.jpg)
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Wow, that is one clean looking casting, much better than an OEM 392 block. It's an interesting time for a modern 392 block as the popularity of cacklefest race cars is at an all time high. That and the resurgence of actual side-by-side racing of front engine AA/FD's in nostalgia classes where they are turning in the high 5's!
Would be great to see Bach & Gould or a new team field a real SOHC Ford nostalgia AA/FD again.
http://www.dragracingonline.com/special/bachgould_1.html
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Would be great to see Bach & Gould or a new team field a real SOHC Ford nostalgia AA/FD again.
http://www.dragracingonline.com/special/bachgould_1.html
Man that would be awesome.
On the casting, yes it's quite nice. Doug told me he had a very nice set of blueprints for it so he was able to get a real good design on it. I believe he took it down to Hot Heads to mock it up and test.
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Jay, Joel: before we place our hp/torque bets on Joel's "392" hemi dyno runs we need to know if there's any nitro involved? :D
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No nitro, but the engine is nearly ready to run. We expect to start it tonight, and will probably run the best dyno pulls tomorrow. Place your bets on the best numbers!
I'm going to say 620 ft-lbs of torque, and 707 HP...
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650 hp / 625 tq
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No nitro, but the engine is nearly ready to run. We expect to start it tonight, and will probably run the best dyno pulls tomorrow. Place your bets on the best numbers!
I'm going to say 620 ft-lbs of torque, and 707 HP...
Nope! I'm always high so I say 595 ft-lbs @ 690 hp.
This w/o still knowing the induction system, among other engine detail things! Live vicariously, I say!
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We are actually going to be trying out 3 different induction systems. The one on the engine now is a 2X4V single plane unit, kind of like a tunnel wedge but higher, with two 660 center squirter carbs. The second is a single 4 Dominator single plane intake, which looks very good, and an 1150 Dominator carb. The third, which is the one that Joel wants to run in the car, is a long crossram style intake with eight different single barrel carbs on it. Very vintage.
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Cool and thanks Jay. Three different intakes, eh? I'll stick to my guesses yet I'll venture a.) the dual 660's barely beat out b.) the single Dominator while c.) the 8 single V long runner will outperform the other two down low and in mid-range but get killed, badly like over 100 hp, on the top end.
Hey, it's like horse racing....win, place and show! Hah!
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Go back in Jays book and look at the test on the 8 x 2V set up on the FE dyno mule. Pretty impressive for old tech.. Our resident old tech proponent J C felt that Jay put his thumb on the scale a bit by not taking 3 days to tune the thing. He is convinced it would have stomped the field. LOL. It sure did not lose a 100 horse on the high end..
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Here are pictures of the three induction setups. The 2X4 setup is currently installed, and will be run first. The Dominator intake will use my 1150 cfm carb. The 8 carb setup uses two barrel carbs, not one barrel carbs as I previously stated. Each carb is good for 220 cfm! The 8 carb setup blows the other two away in cool factor, IMO:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/392H2X4.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/392HDom.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/392H8X2.jpg)
We'll be starting the engine by noon today. Results tomorrow. Place your bets LOL!
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I'll stick to my earlier power estimates but.....revise my text (see below) on the 8 single carb statement. Now that it's known to be 2-bbl carbs at over 1750 total cfm, it should almost equal the other intakes and not be down 100 hp.
Odd though the shape of that dual carb intake with what appears to be a fairly sharp right angle at the plenum. Surprised that this area wasn't taller, better shaped or had the top of the runners angled better than they are. The single plane intake looks terrific and obviously follows modern design intakes in runner shape, angles and a smooth plenum.
"Cool and thanks Jay. Three different intakes, eh? I'll stick to my guesses yet I'll venture a.) the dual 660's barely beat out b.) the single Dominator while c.) the 8 single V long runner will outperform the other two down low and in mid-range but get killed, badly like over 100 hp, on the top end.
Hey, it's like horse racing....win, place and show! Hah!"
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663 hp, 570 tq with the 1150 Dominator
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711hp and 615 trq. It is almost ready to fire up. The Drunk Monkey and myself are here with Joel and Jay.
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Cool! Can you guys do a video w/sound as well?
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Kool Looking power plant!
I bet more than anything I have running. :P
Why the bare block and "cough" rusty pulley?
Rat Rod thing?
Good luck, hope it meets your expected numbers.
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Update 4:30 on Saturday - We have fought through several problems already. First was as we were filling the engine with water, all kinds of water started pouring out of the exhaust bolt holes in the heads. Apparently on 392 Hemis this is standard, and Joel didn't know it. With my SOHC headers bolted onto the engine, only three of the header bolts are used, so as we filled the engine with water, it started streaming out of the unused bolt holes. Joel pulled the headers off on each side and stuck some kind of a probe into each header bolt hole, and found two on each side that went into the water jacket. He plugged those with some 3/8" set screws with sealer, then bolted the headers back on. We filled the engine with water, and then the rest of the exhaust bolts started leaking; apparently even though they bottomed out with Joel's probe, they still went into the water jacket. I took this opportunity to question Chrysler engineering ;D I mean, really, header bolts into the water jacket??
After Joel repeated the procedure and got the headers re-installed, we finally got the engine to hold water. It fired up immediately, but sounded like we had some interference rubbing going on in the bellhousing. We shut it off and pulled the started to look inside, and sure enough we could see the flywheel plate rubbing against a starter nose support that was cast into the aluminum bellhousing. Joel went in there with a chisel and cut the offending part off the bellhousing, because the starter he has doesn't even use the support. After he did that we started the engine again, and it sounded a lot better, but there was still some noise, and Joel saw some sparks coming out of the bottom of the bellhousing. We decided to pull the starter again, and sure enough we could see that the starter gear was contacting the flywheel gear. Joel added two washers to the starter to space it out from the bellhousing, and next time when we started the engine it finally sounded OK.
We warmed up the engine for about 5 minutes and Joel set the timing, but then we started to hear some valvetrain noise, so we shut the engine off and pulled the valve covers. Unexpectedly, when we pulled the covers we saw a LOT of water in the oil. We traced the noise to a rocker arm that wasn't adjusted properly, so that was an easy fix, but as I sit here typing Joel and Jeff are pulling the intake and heads, because Joel thinks the head gaskets are the likely source of the leak. We will see. Here is a photo of the engine with the valve cover off, and you can see the milky color of the oil:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/392Hrokr.jpg)
Joel thinks he can get the engine fixed later this evening, and maybe we can even run a pull by then. More updates as they become available...
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I recognize that single carb intake. He did a lot of work on that one with band saw and a "hot glue" gun. I think it started life as a Nascar Chevy SB2 intake, then gut cut into 8 pieces and spacers between runners and all kinds of welding and porting to get it where it is now. Wonder how many hours were into that? Pretty cool.
Sorry about all the trouble with leaks, hopefully you guys will get it sealed up and make some steam (the other kind of steam...HP).
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Sounds like it's turning into the Not So Great Hemi Intake Comparo. ::) Good luck getting it sealed and running. The 8v setup should look pretty cool on there.....
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Normally a stud is used in the (I think) front and rear exhaust bolt holes.
It's been years since I've worked on a mopar.
I think but could be wrong both small blocks and big blocks are that way.
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It could be just bad MoJo from a Mopar invading a Ford shrine
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Best of luck getting that beast on song. Yeah I agree that studs would be the way to go for those exhaust mounts.
- Bill
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Heads are going back on. Just waiting for Joel to torque hem down.
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Silly General Motors and Mopar both have header bolts going into the water jackets along with head bolts too.
I think if it runs it'll make 699.9 HP and Joel will just call it 700 and be good with it. Jay will get a lot of mileage from denying the 700 for eternity.
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Very cool read. It will be very neat to see and early style hemi break into the 700hp range. Kudos to all involved.
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I don't remember that OEM iron 354-392 Hemi heads had the exhaust bolts go into the water jacket. I really don't think they did as engines we worked on never had this issue. Keep in mind these are Hot Head's replica aluminum heads, not the OEM heads.
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I've been told that all the early Hemis had studs in the exhaust bolt holes, just for this reason. Manifolds or headers were installed with nuts on the studs.
We finally got the engine up and running last night and made one pull to 6200 RPM. The engine made 590 ft-lbs and 640 HP, which was disappointing. We need to do carb tuning and adjust timing, but Joel says that the 2X4 intake that is on the engine now has runners that are smaller in size than the ports, so maybe that is the issue. We also think that the cam is just too small for an engine this size to make power at 7000 RPM. We will be running again this afternoon, and I'll see if I can provide an update this evening.
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I don't have it up any more but my engine analyzer said the engine peaked at 6500 with that cam.
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What are all the specs on that cam?
I know it's already wide at 112 LSA, but in my old days of playing with a couple 426s, they didn't like overlap like a wedge would.
Regardless, I'd zonk the lash down and see if it gets better or worse at some point
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More dyno drama today with Joel's 392 Hemi. Joel got here at about 1:00, did an oil change on the engine, checked it all over, and was ready to go. We filled the engine with water and it fired right up. After warming up we ran another pull to 6200, and saw about the same results as before. Next we tried a pull to 6600, and the engine was missing badly at the top end. Joel has one of those MSD ready to run distributors on the engine, along with an old time Malloy coil (to complete the vintage look). The Mallory coil has a ballast resistor that it came with, and Joel had hooked it up according to the instructions, but questioned whether or not it was necessary, despite the instruction's insistence that the ballast resistor absolutely had to be used. After missing at the higher engine speeds, Joel decided to bypass the ballast resistor. This made a big improvement; the next pull was much cleaner, with only a couple of minor stumbles. But since we still had some missing, we decided to put my MSD Digital 6 and HVCII coil on, and just use the MSD distributor to trigger the MSD Digital 6. This totally cleaned up the pulls, and the engine pulled strong to 7000 RPM with this ignition setup.
We also spent some time experimenting with timing, and found that 30 degrees total is what the engine liked the best. It was still not making the power we were hoping for, though. Next we decided to cut the valve lash in half, to .010", but after Joel got done lashing the valves, we tried to turn the engine over and it went 1/4 turn and stopped. Joel and Jeff investigated this and found that we had water in the #8 cylinder! The engine was probably hydra-locked at this point. Joel and Jeff pulled the plugs and spun the engine over to spit out the water, but in the end decided that the heads had to come off again, because the re-seal on the head gaskets that they did on Saturday night was obviously not sufficient. So, we have not yet had a chance to run the engine with the tightened up valve lash.
Here's the best pull so far:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/392H_07.jpg)
Tonight Joel talked to his 392 Hemi expert, and learned that the 2X4 manifold that is currently on the engine is not a particularly good one. The single 4 intake Joel has was recommended over this. The plan from this point forward is to replace the head gaskets, making sure that they seal correctly this time, and then test with the single 4 intake to try to make more horsepower. I will update this thread when we have more dyno data...
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For it to fill the cylinder that fast, I'd say he was pretty lucky it didn't hydra-lock during a dyno pull. I've seen the aftermath when that happens to an engine at speed and it ain't pretty. Those seem like respectable numbers though considering a cam that's pretty much done by 6500, and being hampered by a less than ideal intake. The other intakes should prove interesting.
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Any hints Jay on what's going on with the water? Are they steel shim or modern MLS gaskets? 392's aren't noted for this issue so I wonder if the aftermarket Hot Heads have the passages lining up correctly. Odd for sure.
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Looks like 663 hp to me ;)
Just sayin! ;D
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Head gaskets are copper. The Hot Heads have some small oval water ports, that are not aligning with the head gaskets.
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Ah, thanks Jerico. Now it makes more sense as to why its got leaks. Hope they can fix same for more runs.
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It will be coming off the dyno... Had another set back today.
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Sometimes you just gotta see how the other side lives......
(http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u267/shellvalleyowner/photo%20235_zpsqzcujtvl.jpg)
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I like Pontiacs. They are dimensionally very similar to FEs. Ram Air V was a later copy of the FE tunnel port design, too. I had a good friend in high school who ran Pontiacs, and Mark Dahlquist on this forum has run a couple Pontiacs at Engine Masters with great success. Too bad they had to put them in GM cars... ;D
Joel pulled the heads on his engine yesterday and found the #8 cylinder wall was cracked. We are speculating that water got in there at some point and the engine hydra-locked and split the wall. No sure about that, though. In any case he has taken the engine off the dyno now, and it is out getting a sleeve repair. He is hoping to be back on the dyno this weekend. We will see...
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I hate that for him....hopefully it's an easy repair and he can get everything sealed up easily.
As for the Poncho, this is my first one, but I'm a fan thus far. Doweled main caps, slip fit balancers, slip fit distributor gears, intake gaskets that aren't immersed in oil...... :)
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Oh man sorry to hear that.
I hope it didn't bend any rods.
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intake gaskets that aren't immersed in oil...... :)
Well, now what kinda weird engine manufacturer would do something THAT stupid? uhhh yeah, nevermind.
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Ouch to that cracked wall. I also hope it can be quickly repaired for more testing.
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I hate that for him....hopefully it's an easy repair and he can get everything sealed up easily.
As for the Poncho, this is my first one, but I'm a fan thus far. Doweled main caps, slip fit balancers, slip fit distributor gears, intake gaskets that aren't immersed in oil...... :)
We had a series of at least 3 old Ponchos, all '63-'64 with 389's, that we used as tow cars in the early-mid 70's. Every one had bum 'silent' timing gears since GM used the nylon coating on the aluminum cam gear that dried up, broke off or otherwise shedded the teeth, usually at most inconvenient times. We bought them really cheap, usually since the engine was running weird, and got so good at chain/gear changes we did one once start to finish in 2 hours! Funny that the aftermarket replacements, TRW's IIRC, all had a nice steel cam gear as none sold a duplicate of that crappy nylon-toothed gear.
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Ha! Brings back memories. I did a timing chain replacement on a friends Bonneville in a parking lot at the University of Minnesota, in the snow, must have been 1977. When we got it apart the nylon gear was completely stripped, and all the teeth were in the pan. No way to get them out. I told him we should pull the pan and clean it, and he said screw it, put it back together. Ran for another year like that before he sold it...
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Sometimes you just gotta see how the other side lives......
Brent,
You are right. I have quite a few Pontiac Pals. I built this little car but not the engine. It's a 480 inch all pontiac with a pro-systems dominator, a power glide and an old school Olds / Pontiac 3.89 gear with a 30 tall radial slick.
Looks like i'll have to download them to photobucket so they will show up..... >:(
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Trying to post from my phone. Bear with me. Picture of the little red wagon....lol