FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: jgkurz on January 15, 2016, 04:19:14 PM
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Hi All, I know this has been brought up many times but I want to be 100% correct on this procedure. The shim/rod/nut/washer needs to be put in one of these locations to put more force on the bypass valve against the screw-in plug, correct?
(http://i362.photobucket.com/albums/oo64/jgkurz/Oil%20Bypass_zpsbeiu7osc.jpg)
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Why are you closing the valve?
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Why are you closing the valve?
I will be running the bypass in my Precision Melling M-57AHV pump. I'm not sure why I'd need two bypasses. I believe some of the very expensive aftermarket 427 blocks rely on the pump bypass so it seemed reasonable to do the same.
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Why are you closing the valve?
I will be running the bypass in my Precision Melling M-57AHV pump.
The way I understand the sideoiler to work.
A high pressure pump is used and the vent valve will regulate the pressure at the rear main to about 60 psi.
If you just use the HV pump you will never get to 60 psi at the rear main. The pressure will bleed off
and at best you will have about 50ish psi at high rpm. Just like all the rest of the non sideoilers that use the HV pump.
There is a reason why Ford went to all the extra work to do it. To keep the oil pressure up at the rear main
for endurance racing.
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Why are you closing the valve?
I will be running the bypass in my Precision Melling M-57AHV pump.
The way I understand the sideoiler to work.
A high pressure pump is used and the vent valve will regulate the pressure at the rear main to about 60 psi.
If you just use the HV pump you will never get to 60 psi at the rear main. The pressure will bleed off
and at best you will have about 50ish psi at high rpm. Just like all the rest of the non sideoilers that use the HV pump.
There is a reason why Ford went to all the extra work to do it. To keep the oil pressure up at the rear main
for endurance racing.
I have never heard this but I am new to the Ford FE crowd. I certainly want to make the best decision for my street/strip setup. THANK YOU for posing the question.
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The only problem with using the rear bypass is you'll need the high pressure bypass spring in the oil pump. The oil pump bypass is set to bypass at about 125lbs to protect the oil filter. This is for cold starts only and the rear bypass is the actual running pressure control. I've blocked the rear bypass in 2 sideoilers and just rely on the M57HV as it was set at Melling. My hot/running pressure on both is app. 65 lbs at 2500 rpm and have no problems in the 20 or so years they have run.
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I know there is more than one way to skin a cat, but why not run it the way it was designed then?
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I know there is more than one way to skin a cat, but why not run it the way it was designed then?
I just spoke to a friend who has forgot more about FE's then I will ever know. He said when he was racing with factory blocks he'd shim the block bypass tighter than stock then reply on the pump bypass. He never had an issue doing this. This was after many high RPM runs down the drag strip. As an interesting side note, he said the factory did the exact opposite with the pump bypass spring being much stiffer than the block bypass.
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Why are you closing the valve?
I will be running the bypass in my Precision Melling M-57AHV pump.
The way I understand the sideoiler to work.
A high pressure pump is used and the vent valve will regulate the pressure at the rear main to about 60 psi.
If you just use the HV pump you will never get to 60 psi at the rear main. The pressure will bleed off
and at best you will have about 50ish psi at high rpm. Just like all the rest of the non sideoilers that use the HV pump.
There is a reason why Ford went to all the extra work to do it. To keep the oil pressure up at the rear main
for endurance racing.
ScotiaFE, Are you suggesting the use of the high pressure pump vs the high volume pump? I am rethinking my approach and may stiffen up the block spring instead of disabling it completely.
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At what RPM would a high pressure oil pump be needed? And you can have both a high volume and a high pressure pump.
I found some interesting reading on Melling. Not exactly news, but it's an interesting way to really understand what is happening.
http://www.mellingengine.com/Portals/5/pdf/pdf_catalog/pressure-vs-flow.pdf
http://www.mellingengine.com/portals/5/pdf/pdf_catalog/high-volume-pumps.pdf
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I've been thinking a lot about this and there has to be a reason why Ford would install a pressure relief spring in the block, rather than just relying on the oil pump relief spring. Below is the layout for top and side oiling FE's.
(http://www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/427-oiling-patterns.jpg)
So what would be the cause? Pump loss is due to surface finish, distance, elevation changes, number of bends and what type of transitions are present. What this turns into, is pressure drop the farther you get away from the pump. Resistance will build up pressure, but that pressure is not exactly uniform, due to pumping losses. So resistance to flow builds up pressure at the pump, but that does not mean said pressure will be seen at the end of the passage. So Ford must have figured that the best place to regulate the pressure for normal operation would be at the end of the flow, ensuring that the maximum-minimum pressure seen anywhere in the engine is at the end of the oil gallery, rather than before oil even reached it. That last sentence can sound a little confusing, but the point of the design is to regulate the oil pressure at the end rather than the beginning, in order to keep oil pressure where it needs to be for all parts of the engine. So you don't stop the pump at say 65 PSI which will eventually drop as the oil reaches the back of the engine. By regulating the pressure at the back, you know that the whole block receives a minimum of 65 PSI before the relief opens.
This is all based off of the theoretical functioning of the pressure relief spring at the back of the engine. How much the oil pressure drops between the pump and this spring is hard to know without putting a gauge in place of the relief spring. It could very well be a preventative measure, as engineers like to think of every possible way there could be a problem.
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I think the sideoiler system is an excellent oiling system.
I'm sure all the guys that think they know better than Ford think they are right also. ;)
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thoughts on oil pumps. Melling M57HV is 390 /428 pump with high pressure by pass spring. equal to Ford heavy duty pump C9ZZ-6600-A said to flow 22 gpm at 70 to 80 psi at 4000 rpm this is a gerotor type pump with internal bypass. 427 uses C3AZ-6600-B I think this is a gear on gear pump, that was also used on the 406. does any one have an oem 427 pump that we could see pictures of. with the right pump I see no reason to block out the rear bypass. with an M57 type pump when it is in bypass several thing happen. first spark scatter in the distributor. second the bypass oil is discharged back in to the intake side of the pump this can have an effect on oil pick up. this will also heat up the oil. the rear bypass eliminates all of this. and as previously mentioned oil pressure regulation at the far end of the system
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So I just realized I pretty much wrote the long engineering version of what Scotia wrote. :)
Oh and remember, if you use a remote oil filter or an oil cooler, the oil goes from the pump to these first. You have any idea the kind of pumping losses that can be seen from this?
Here is a scan of an original advert for the 427 pump. Pretty sure this is a gerotor design as well.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t69/EggbertPhotos/DualCarbMod/427oilpump.jpg)
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I think the sideoiler system is an excellent oiling system.
I'm sure all the guys that think they know better than Ford think they are right also. ;)
Oiling systems sure are fun to argue about ;D ;D
I'm not overly impressed with the sideoiler system. It is not a true priority mains oiling system; it oils the mains and the cam bearings at the same time. IMO it is only marginally better than the standard FE top oiler system. The thing that makes it a little better is that the passages are larger and can flow more oil to feed larger bearing clearances. The rear pressure relief valve would seem to be a benefit if you put a high pressure spring in the regular oil pump, so that the regulation is done at the end of the oiling system, but based on the tests I've done with oil pressure gauges at various spots in the engine, there isn't more than about a 15 psi drop off front to back, so as long as you have sufficient pressure up front I'm not sure that the rear valve is needed. Although I have to say that when the sideoiler was designed, there weren't modern electronic ignitions, and Mike's point about spark scatter is a good one if you happen to be running points and a coil only. With a modern electronic ignition distributor and CD ignition box like an MSD, I don't think you'd see the same problem.
The really good oiling system is the small block Ford oiling system. That one is a true priority mains system. That is also the oiling system that the Shelby block was designed with.
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Jay, if you ran a remote oil filter and oil cooler setup (common on the 427 Cobra Semi-Comp), I'd imagine the pressure drop would be another 10-ish psi? Another part of the problem to think about. When looking at this though, you also need to look at your typical RPM's. If the engine rarely sees north of say 4500 RPM, chances are you aren't running a remote filter and cooler and you won't need high pressures. If you were building an FE to run 7000-8000 RPM's, this might be of far greater importance.
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You can shim the spring closed with a short piece of steel rod easy enough. Or if this block is on a stand, the offshoot to the bypass valve bore can be tapped and plugged.
I think the bypass was needed because the FoMoCo 427 pump made high pressure. Like 120lbs I've heard. And it didn't have a bypass built into it. Edit: I love to hear some history about this bypass valve.
My thought on this topic... I've had several bypass valves in automatic trannys get stuck open with a chunk of crap in them. And if the bypass in a side oiler block got stuck open it could starve the #5 main bearing, the #8 rod bearing and the #5 cam bearing. It seems like a lot of risk to me without much reward. I left the unfinished bypass bore in my Genesis block unfinished when I built my 504.
(http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb462/kmccullah1/040_zps3e97c689.jpg) (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/kmccullah1/media/040_zps3e97c689.jpg.html)
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So I just realized I pretty much wrote the long engineering version of what Scotia wrote. :)
Oh and remember, if you use a remote oil filter or an oil cooler, the oil goes from the pump to these first. You have any idea the kind of pumping losses that can be seen from this?
Here is a scan of an original advert for the 427 pump. Pretty sure this is a gerotor design as well.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t69/EggbertPhotos/DualCarbMod/427oilpump.jpg)
not what I expected to see, friend has 62 406 center oiler with rear bypass. has gear on gear oil pump. thought 427 would take same pump?
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If there was a design flaw with the gerotor pump, I doubt Melling would be using it and that this design is still widely used today. The gear on gear pumps were in trucks I think.
As for the bypass valve getting stuck open, the same could be said for the oil pump's bypass valve. The oil pump is more prone to being jammed as well, because it picks up from the pan. The relief valve in the block will have oil that has been filtered. I think the idea that it would jam is probably an unlikely situation. Your filter would have to implode or a part would have to break and in either case, you'll have bigger problems than a stuck relief valve.
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Interesting as always.
Blair Patrick just sold a 427 SO block based engine on the forum here for a "cough" for a modest price.
That dyno print out showed 89.1 psi peak oil pressure at 6200 rpm and an average 83.7 psi.
Now if I was looking at those numbers I would be pretty happy with the oil flow.
It would be interesting to know how he got there, but using the plain old Melling M57-HV on my 428 I just don't see those
kind of numbers even at 6000 rpm.
I stop at 6000 rpm, mostly because I can't even drive the thing at that speed
so going higher is not going to help me. ::)
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q128/ScotiaFE/bpdyno1_zpspdibsljw.jpg) (http://s135.photobucket.com/user/ScotiaFE/media/bpdyno1_zpspdibsljw.jpg.html)
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I think the sideoiler system is an excellent oiling system.
I'm sure all the guys that think they know better than Ford think they are right also. ;)
Oiling systems sure are fun to argue about ;D ;D
I'm not overly impressed with the sideoiler system. It is not a true priority mains oiling system; it oils the mains and the cam bearings at the same time. IMO it is only marginally better than the standard FE top oiler system. The thing that makes it a little better is that the passages are larger and can flow more oil to feed larger bearing clearances. The rear pressure relief valve would seem to be a benefit if you put a high pressure spring in the regular oil pump, so that the regulation is done at the end of the oiling system, but based on the tests I've done with oil pressure gauges at various spots in the engine, there isn't more than about a 15 psi drop off front to back, so as long as you have sufficient pressure up front I'm not sure that the rear valve is needed. Although I have to say that when the sideoiler was designed, there weren't modern electronic ignitions, and Mike's point about spark scatter is a good one if you happen to be running points and a coil only. With a modern electronic ignition distributor and CD ignition box like an MSD, I don't think you'd see the same problem.
The really good oiling system is the small block Ford oiling system. That one is a true priority mains system. That is also the oiling system that the Shelby block was designed with.
I looked at what Shelby did on their aluminum 427 block. It seems they redesigned the oiling system so the crank was indeed the first to be oiled. Their block doesn't include a bypass but they also improved the design so my previous logic that I could just disable the block bypass like Shelby did probably doesn't hold up.
(http://i362.photobucket.com/albums/oo64/jgkurz/2016-01-16_064442_zpszskuzcvg.jpg) (http://s362.photobucket.com/user/jgkurz/media/2016-01-16_064442_zpszskuzcvg.jpg.html)
http://www.shelbyengines.com/products/finished-block
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Scotia, remember that bearing clearances play a huge factor in oil pressure. His engine might just be built to a tighter tolerance. Increasing your flow rate should allow you to reach operating pressure quicker but if you're already using a high volume pump, that doesn't help. Have you checked to make sure the relief valve isn't opening too soon?
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Scotia, remember that bearing clearances play a huge factor in oil pressure. His engine might just be built to a tighter tolerance. Increasing your flow rate should allow you to reach operating pressure quicker but if you're already using a high volume pump, that doesn't help. Have you checked to make sure the relief valve isn't opening too soon?
Well I'm not in the same zone as Blair for building FE's, but I'm pretty confident that my 428 is working pretty good.
I actually have pretty much the same 482 that Blair sold, mine is based on a Genesis block,
but pretty much the same, Tunnel Wedge and BBM and such.
Someday I will actually assemble it. ::)
I'm sure he has the bearing clearances just right so it must be boosted at the pump.
My 482.
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q128/ScotiaFE/DSCN0130_zps58e7c350.jpg) (http://s135.photobucket.com/user/ScotiaFE/media/DSCN0130_zps58e7c350.jpg.html)
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I think there's way to much "overthinking" on this. There's no 'magic' in the sideoiler system. Back in the day, Ford was trying to get as much oil to the mains for endurance racing like Lemans and Nascar. That's what the sideoiler was designed for. They regulated at the block bypass valve to insure maximum oiling was available at the mains to help solve durability issues. It was the best solution, remaining in the confines of the FE block, without totally redesigning it.
Shim or eliminate the block bypass valve and it's no different than any other engines oiling system with a bypass valve at the pump. It's not an issue with other engines, and it wouldn't be an issue with the sideoiler. The centeroiler has no issues in anything other than endurance racing, as Ford found out. Early centeroiler 427's and 428's don't have oiling issues in drag racing (other than maybe flooding the head), so unless you're endurance racing, it's really a moot point. The engine will survive fine with or without it.
Personally, with a bypass at the pump, I don't see any need for the block having one. If you're running big clearances, I would prefer to leave it out or shim it, ensuring that the maximum available pressure is reaching the rear main.
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IIRC the rear oil valve was put in place because the side oiler blocks were used for racing yes but they were also intended to be put in passenger car's and needed cold start up high oil pressure protection, you know for the people in north Dakota who could have bought a car with this engine. ;)
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IIRC the rear oil valve was put in place because the side oiler blocks were used for racing yes but they were also intended to be put in passenger car's and needed cold start up high oil pressure protection, you know for the people in north Dakota who could have bought a car with this engine. ;)
That is what pump bypass' are for.
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The C9ZZ-6600-A oil pump was also a 22 gal/min- 70-80 lbs @ 4K
Doug at POP sez this spring is no longer available but sells a shim and new plug if you you'd like a little more than the M57HV
I don't see how any FE can have "Mains" priority oiling system unless you come in directly to them. The Side Oiler feeds are aimed more to the cam then the mains and I don't really see to much of a down side to a Center Oiler such as 406/427 with it's larger galleries. Clearances to big for the street don't help, neither does worn rocker assemblies (biggest culprit)
Naaa I think Henry's boys didn't do too bad dam near 50 some yrs ago, ask Enzo. :).... JMO
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Interesting as always.
Blair Patrick just sold a 427 SO block based engine on the forum here for a "cough" for a modest price.
That dyno print out showed 89.1 psi peak oil pressure at 6200 rpm and an average 83.7 psi.
Now if I was looking at those numbers I would be pretty happy with the oil flow.
It would be interesting to know how he got there, but using the plain old Melling M57-HV on my 428 I just don't see those
kind of numbers even at 6000 rpm.
I stop at 6000 rpm, mostly because I can't even drive the thing at that speed
so going higher is not going to help me. ::)
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q128/ScotiaFE/bpdyno1_zpspdibsljw.jpg) (http://s135.photobucket.com/user/ScotiaFE/media/bpdyno1_zpspdibsljw.jpg.html)
I always tap and plug the two "spit holes" in the crankcase, and eliminate the bypass. The last thing you want to do is blow off oil to the rear of a front sump engine under hard acceleration. That bypassed oil will never see the pickup until you let off the gas, or it blows up from no oil in the sump..........which killed many drag race 427's in the day. The oval track apps may have seen some benefit, but I still can't see it. The spit holes are in just a peachy place to wrap that oil right arount the crank and kill a little power also.
Rocker arm to shaft clearance, LIFTER BORE to lifter clearance, main bearing clearance, and to a lesser degree, rod bearing and cam bearing clearance all play a role in making the pressure more consistent. If you have a severe bleed from one or more of these places, the idle oil pressure, and low rpm pressures will suffer. I work on the pump a little also. If it bypasses early, at least it is going to the front of the pan in the modern Melling pumps. I use a few Titans also, but they bypass internal. Not much gain there, but higher quality parts..........
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do you guys ever disassemble and check/clean your new pumps.
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Yes since i got a "new" pump that
was scratched inside i always take
them apart
Fast and cheap insurance
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I always check pumps and also plug bypasses, although my 489 center oiler is just tightly shimmed. I used to do it that way because it was faster, functionally it's much tighter than the oil pressure would ever push on it
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Autoholic your concern over oil pressure loss through long and complex pathways to me seem overblown. Based on a past discussion/thread on the duration that a remote oiling system (Accusump) can maintain oil pressure w/o oil from pump. I concluded the typical FE oiling system only consumes a tiny fraction of those stated numbers in the Muscle Parts Catalog: "70-80 psi 22gpm at 4,000 rpm" the secret is they use the words: "has the capacity" in the Muscle Parts paragraph.
Back in the early 70s I installed a windage tray and that pump in my otherwise stock 390GT without any issues. I believe vintage Ford oil pumps by design have huge capacity, but go into bypass (internally within the pump) in short order. This reminds me of a friend that seriously over "shimmed" a 2.3Ltr oil pump and promptly blew out his oil filter just cranking the motor to start it.
The typical passages in an FEs oil system are far from restrictive to the nominal amounts of oil normally flowing through them, ditto on properly sized remote oil systems.
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Autoholic your concern over oil pressure loss through long and complex pathways to me seem overblown.
Pot meet Kettle ;)
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Autoholic your concern over oil pressure loss through long and complex pathways to me seem overblown.
The rear pressure relief valve would seem to be a benefit if you put a high pressure spring in the regular oil pump, so that the regulation is done at the end of the oiling system, but based on the tests I've done with oil pressure gauges at various spots in the engine, there isn't more than about a 15 psi drop off front to back, so as long as you have sufficient pressure up front I'm not sure that the rear valve is needed.
I would believe Jay if he said "isn't more than about 15 psi drop off front to back". I could easily believe 10-15 psi drop in pressure from the front of the engine to the back. But, I also pointed out that on an application which uses a remote oil filter and oil cooler, that drop could be another 10-ish psi. That is a conservative estimate as well. You could probably lose 5-10 psi just in the oil cooler at a minimum, with a tiny oil cooler. That's not overblown, it comes from hands-on knowledge of pump losses, although done with water which is a pretty good baseline for any comparison due to being the standard at which viscosity ratings are based on. So at minimum you're seeing 10-15 psi drop in the engine itself and if you have an oil cooler with remote oil filter setup, you could be seeing another 10-15 psi drop before the oil even hits the engine. If you can seriously say that my analysis is flawed, I'd love to know your reasoning. It's not that I think I know everything (I don't), I just want to see the logic behind your viewpoint.
So, please show me how I have overblown the issue. I'm saying 10-15 psi drop in the engine and another 10-15 psi drop outside the engine if you have a remote oil filter and oil cooler setup. Under said setup, there could be 20-30 psi drop by the time the oil has reached the rear mains at peak operating conditions.
I fail to see the importance of bringing up the accusump thread in this context. We're talking about pressure drop from the pump to the rear mains. The only time pressure drop was mentioned, was over oil filters and even then, no one put any numbers out there. The whole problem in the thread was you not understanding the purpose of an oil accumulator in a wet sump system and having a hard time wrapping your mind around the flow rates of the pump. One of the things I do see more than once, is you talking about a delta pressure at the filter. This means there would be a pressure drop across the filter (naturally) which only supports my statement. So your own understanding of pressure drop in previous posts is actually fighting against your questioning of my estimate.
My intent, is only to show that there is a pressure drop that needs to be taken into account. There is more than one way to skin a cat and Ford must have figured that for the FE, the best way to manage oil pressure was at the back of the engine. There is a difference between giving a long winded explanation and blowing something out of proportion. :D
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we must cast a careful eye on all parts of the oil system, all the time. to do any thing less is to invite disaster.
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I never imagined there could be this much discussion around the oil bypass. I've learned a lot and appreciate each and every response. Thank you.
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Thinking out loud on the "side-oiler"
My own observation is that a lot of "top oilers" cracked the bulkhead at the drilled oil hole from cam to crank. It seems the combination of the cast groove around the cam bearing bore and the drilled hole (which is larger on the 427's) weakened the bulkhead and may contribute to block failure at high loading. An elegant solution is to just eliminate the cast groove and the drilled hole. Which is the side-oiler.
(Of course the "cammer" was in the works then and that oil rifle detail solves both problems.
For me, when searching for a good 427 block, that "crack" was the first thing to inspect, and I saw more than one)
The "extra" relief valve may be as simple as an over pressure device. Oil filters will fail at pressures over 100 psi.