FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Stampeed on January 05, 2016, 09:25:30 AM
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I'm new here so please excuse me if this has been covered. I have been running a 64 hi rise top oiler in a 64 Fairlane. It's time for a winter rebuild and have decided on a 482. My heads are full race ported and larger than stock valves on original 64 hi rise heads. They flow 350 at .750 lift and the additional work and $ required to gain a few cfm doesn't seem worth it. Lunati has custom ground a .752 lift long duration roller cam they recommended. It's a 12:1 compression motor running Sunoco 112. Original dual quad mainifold port matched with 750 Holley's. T&D 1.8-1 roller rockers.
I read about these 750hp dyno numbers. Is this achievable with my heads? Most of what I read are big numbers through Blue Thunder or other aftermarket heads. Want to stay nolstalgic. I'm expecting more along the line of 650-675hp with 600+ ft lb of torque.
Thoughts please. Suggestions?
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I don't have any first hand High Riser experience, but I can anticipate some of the questions the gang are going to ask, and they're going to want some more detailed information. First off is exactly which casting 2-4v intake do you have? My understanding is the earlier castings are down quite a bit on power potential compared to the later versions. Ford changed the runner pattern quite a bit. Then - what valve sizes? cam specs exactly? Which Holley 750's - are they vacuum secondary or double pumpers? I will say 750 hp is possible with the right combination of parts. Guys are running well into the 8's with Thunderbolts in NHRA Super Stock and 9's in Stock and they are not allowed strokers. I don't have access right now to the NHRA engine specs info, but traditionally they have had to run the original Ford cast iron head castings for the High Riser combination.
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Not exactly like your's - - but unported heads and lower compression still gets close to 600....
http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/message/1452004388/Have%27t+done+a+write+up+for+a+little+while...427+High+Riser+combo+on+the+dyno
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General rule of thumb is that if everything is optimized, you can get about 2.1HP per cfm of intake flow, and a little more if you've got it really dialed in. Assuming your flow numbers are real, you should be able to get over 700 HP. The dual plane intake will hold you back some, though, especially if it is the earlier version as Kevin mentioned. I think your 650-675 HP estimate is pretty close, and I wouldn't be surprised to see 620 ft-lbs...
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Intake #C4AE-9425-D WITH 2-750 VACCUUM CARBS. HEADS C4AE-6090-F Valves 2.250 intake 1.70 exhaust.
Lunati Roller Cam and lifters: 272-280 @ .50
418 lobe lift X 1.8-1 T&D = .752
110 lobe separation
106* @ intake centerline
Thanks for the feedback so far. If there's any other info needed please ask. Appreciate any and all info. I'm smart enough to know I don't know everything.
Thanks
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Got any pictures of this animal?
Using a clutch?
You know the kool stuff. :)
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yes a dual disc and a Jerico 4spd.
ROW TO GO.
tried the pic but it seems that the pic files i have are too big.
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Rowing the Jerico.
My fav past time. 8)
I could get the pictures up if you need help.
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I'd appreciate the help. How do I send u pic?
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Send it here.
Heading out for movie night now, so later on tonight I can put it up for you.
My pic tonight. Yee Haw. Watching the duster, The Hateful Eight. 8)
390fairlane@gmail.com
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Got any pictures of this animal?
Using a clutch?
You know the kool stuff. :)
yes a dual disc and a Jerico 4spd.
ROW TO GO.
tried the pic but it seems that the pic files i have are too big.
Awesome! :) Can't wait to see pics.
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Intake #C4AE-9425-D WITH 2-750 VACCUUM CARBS. HEADS C4AE-6090-F Valves 2.250 intake 1.70 exhaust.
Lunati Roller Cam and lifters: 272-280 @ .50
418 lobe lift X 1.8-1 T&D = .752
110 lobe separation
106* @ intake centerline
Thanks for the feedback so far. If there's any other info needed please ask. Appreciate any and all info. I'm smart enough to know I don't know everything.
Thanks
The C4AE-9425-F is supposedly the better of the 2 factory intakes, rumors of 40hp back in the day but an old post from Blair said it wasn't so on his SS engines.
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The last letter of the casting id is the letter D indicating that this is the 4th generation hi rise intake.
There was some question earlier that the early castings weren't as good but it's difficult to determine at which point major design improvements occurred. The runners have been worked extensively by my machinist and port matched so it's all it can be and don't want aftermarket.
Have a tentative date with the dyno on Friday.
WOOOOOOHOOOOOOO!
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It really depends on how you go about it. We did one for a gentleman in Connecticut who wanted iron heads/stock appearing outside. He had 715's and an F intake. The heads had no epoxy in the intake port, and no brass in the exhaust, but about as far as I could go without doing that....they did not flow 350 on my bench. We made 775 hp, 710 tq at 496 cubes in a Ford topoiler drilled for lifter oil. It took some creative machining to use the race T&D, but it is reliable and clicks off mid-9's on a good racetrack. Expect 15-20 less average hp in a combo like that with the D manifold. It is only 10 hp less average on a 700 hp 427, but trends showed the difference would grow as power and inches increase. The D showed better torque below peak torque, and less power above peak torque than the F manifold on a 427.
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Curious as to how different my cam specs are to his and what carbs were used?
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Curious as to how different my cam specs are to his and what carbs were used?
715s are the factory CU/CV carbs.
There were only 2 production 8V intakes, the D and the F. The earlier D intake had runners like the LR intakes, and the later F intakes had the runners arranged like the later MR intakes. There was also an earlier XE 8V intake in late 63 that was later given the D part number.
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The last letter of the casting id is the letter D indicating that this is the 4th generation hi rise intake.
There was some question earlier that the early castings weren't as good but it's difficult to determine at which point major design improvements occurred. The runners have been worked extensively by my machinist and port matched so it's all it can be and don't want aftermarket.
Have a tentative date with the dyno on Friday.
WOOOOOOHOOOOOOO!
Actually the "D" doesn't mean it was the 4th generation High Riser intake, it just means it was the 4th intake design Ford did for that model year, and in this case the "A" full size body family. The others could be any engine, cast iron intakes, and even designs that never made it into production. In the case of 427 2-4v High Risers the "D" is the earlier intake and the "F" is the later design. The "E" and "G" are the 4V versions, early & late. There were most likely other High Riser intakes with no casting number and prototypes too. Here are a couple links to pictures on MustangTek so you can see pictures of the difference in runner pattern:
http://mustangtek.com/Intake/C4AE-9425-D.html
http://mustangtek.com/Intake/C4AE-9425-F.html
I don't have any personal experience with High Risers, I'd certainly defer to what people like Blair have found through hands on testing. He's built plenty of High Risers for serious racers.
There is a lot of cylinder head flow that can be found in the valve job and angles, along with just the design of the valves too, and in the case High Risers probably filling, not just enlarging the intake ports. Much depends on how you intend to use the engine / vehicle.
BH107 beat me to the intake info while I was typing.
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Here is the car.
Very Nice.
Which Jerico do you use?
I have a home made one and a vintage one.
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q128/ScotiaFE/64%20Fairlane/untitled_zpsrpfdnfxz.png) (http://s135.photobucket.com/user/ScotiaFE/media/64%20Fairlane/untitled_zpsrpfdnfxz.png.html)
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That's a beautiful car. That thing is going to MOVE with that motor.
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Thanks So Much Gentlemen for the info. I would consider buying an F code manifold. Would have been great to to be able to swap them on the dyno tomorrow and know exactly the performance difference.
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How can I contact Blair to ask some questions or his website please.
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If you machinist did open up the ports to the HR gasket size, then there would not be a lot of difference between the F manifold and your reworked intake. Opening up the HR manifolds is not always the best for torque and high end power. They flow so much more air than most heads are capable of being ported to flow. Example: I did a couple of different sets of HR heads and intakes, and the heads will come in at ~345cfm with a 2.190" intake valve, and the intake manifolds will flow well over 410 cfm with opening up the ports to the gasket sizes. I have flowed other folks ported heads, and not many will flow in the 340 cfm range. A stock set of iron heads that I flowed recently were almost NOS, and they only flowed 285 cfm from .500-750". Most drag race engines want the flow of the intake at 125% of the heads, but with as small of a cross sectional port as possible to keep the torque up. Unless you find a F intake at a reasonable price, I would not worry about the possible differences. Joe-JDC
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Oh I see Capt CJ is Blair.
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Wayne Sharky matched the port to the gasket yes. he ported the heads and did the valves and they flow a true 350 cfm. Great job I think. 2.250 and 1.70. Truthfully I'm getting caught up in the numbers and agree that the difference in performance for the cost of buying a quality piece for my purpose may be foolish. At 56 I still can't get enough. Still doing the street outlaw stuff.
You saw my cam specs so I've got friends taking a guess at the HP and Torque numbers before the dyne tomorrow. Take a shot?
I'm thinking 665-675 and 620 torque.
I'd love to see 700 like some folks are getting. I'm beginning to think different dynos with the same motor and you get different numbers.
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Hey Guys, these 750 vacuum secondary carbs aren't doing the job on the dyno. I.m leaning toward a pair of 750 Quick fuel's. Thoughts please.
Also will need to mount them sideways. I can only find an open bore adapter from Edelbrock and an Offy.
Does this present much of a flow issue into the High rise manifold?
Thanks
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High riser intakes allow two carbs mounted in line. You don't have to turn them sideways. If you have already made a run on the dyno, you should see that there is room. Also, you may have to put a mechanical stop to cause the secondaries to open if the springs are too strong. Joe-JDC
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Hey Guys, these 750 vacuum secondary carbs aren't doing the job on the dyno. I.m leaning toward a pair of 750 Quick fuel's. Thoughts please.
Also will need to mount them sideways. I can only find an open bore adapter from Edelbrock and an Offy.
Does this present much of a flow issue into the High rise manifold?
Thanks
Usually to get the secondaries to open under the load imposed by the dyno, you have to use either a very light spring, or tie them to open mechanically. You can do this easily by using small tie wraps, through the slot in the secondary throttle shaft bracket, to hold the arm that goes in the slot against the bracket. Then when you go to full throttle, all 8 butterflies will be open. This is a common trick on the dyno with these carbs.
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Hey guys I would like to try a tunnel wedge 2x4 hi rise for my factory cast iron hi rise heads. any aftermarket pieces available?
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Dove made/makes them, but like all of their parts availability is the problem. They also don't have the wider carb spacing for the factory 4150 carbs.
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Right now ANY tunnel wedge intake, whether original or aftermarket, seems pretty hard to come by. At least for anything that would be considered a reasonable price.
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Thank you gentlemen.
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Finally was able to dyno the motor and this is what I got with the original 2X4 D manifold.
After numerous pulls with the pair of 750 vacuums and re jetting we netted 619hp and 610tq. I bought a pair of 660 centers prepared by Allstate Carb with 76 jets and metering plate squared.
1st pull fouled plugs so dropped the jets to 72 with metering plates unchanged netted 635hp and was still pulling too much fuel.
Ran the carbs to Allstate and Jim immediately changed the metering plates to 72 and opened the hi speed air bleeds. I took a pair of 70 plates with me in case.
This netted 655hp at 6300 and 623tq at 4700.
Changed the primaries to 70 and plates to 70 at 38* timing and made 664hp.
Plugs read perfect and fuel flow where it belongs.
Engine specs described at the top of page.