FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => Non-FE Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Qikbbstang on December 31, 2015, 09:51:26 AM
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For decades a wheel-stand coming to an abrupt return meant crumpled headers, crunched oil pan or worse....certainly not a quick turn around for another run.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP4S2zUgz0E
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Plan on trying to get the hoops in the air?
A noble goal. ;)
You can fit travel limiting bump stops on the front.
Or wheelie bars.
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There are no "bash plates" under a regular drag car, a wheel stand coming to an abrupt end still means damage, depending on how abrupt. Most drivers don't step right into a car that does a 6 foot high wheel stand for their first pass though. A lot of effort is spent getting the whole set-up right as well - shocks, springs, bump stops, suspension travel and ballast all play a part. Couple that with practice with launch rpm, shift points, gearing, tire pressure, etc. When it's all done right with an experienced driver it's a thing of beauty. And remember many are pulling a shift while it's in the air! John Calvert's original '68 428 CJ Mustang is a veteran of thousands of airborne passes.
(http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff437/red0wl/68%20Mustang%20Wheelie%20Calvert.jpg) (http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/red0wl/media/68%20Mustang%20Wheelie%20Calvert.jpg.html)
I would guess that some of the cars you see competing at these "extreme" wheelie events where they are judged by crowd reaction to the carnage might be set up with some kind of skid plate, but nothing under your typical NHRA / IHRA stock or super stock car.
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Although Fred Moreno's Super Stock '69 428 CJ Mustang has wheelie bars ( for obvious reasons ), this picture gives you a good look at the front under carriage. The oil pan & headers are still hanging in the breeze.
(http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff437/red0wl/Moreno%20wheelstand.jpg) (http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/red0wl/media/Moreno%20wheelstand.jpg.html)
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Just fun to post pictures of wheel standing Mustangs.
(http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff437/red0wl/68%20Shelby%20Edward%20Horensky%20stocker.jpg) (http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/red0wl/media/68%20Shelby%20Edward%20Horensky%20stocker.jpg.html)
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A little bias on that last one :)Lance Line could sure WOW the crowd with his car.I think his way of calming things for race day was to back off the timing.
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Just fun to post pictures of wheel standing Mustangs.
No argument there! :)
It'd be cool to have a "Members Rides" sticky thread, where members could post pictures of their car/cars.
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(http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff437/red0wl/Bill%20Hawk%2067%20Shelby%20stock.jpg) (http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/red0wl/media/Bill%20Hawk%2067%20Shelby%20stock.jpg.html)
(http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff437/red0wl/Lance%20Line%202001.jpg) (http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/red0wl/media/Lance%20Line%202001.jpg.html)
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Having spent some time repairing Dale P's bash plate's on his Mustang and looking at all the pictures I suspect the answer to the question as to what every one uses is fairly simple...They use Hooker dual purpose headers...The odd time Canton, Milodon and Moroso get involved as well...
Canton,Milodon and Moroso also act as parts catchers when things get bad
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Kevin is correct. Not that easy to get "air" and hang time with a heavy leaf spring street car.
Takes lots of practice.
I'm pretty sure I got both in the air but without a picture "It Didn't Happen". Next Season!
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q128/ScotiaFE/takeoff_zpsoe8u6tg1.png) (http://s135.photobucket.com/user/ScotiaFE/media/takeoff_zpsoe8u6tg1.png.html)
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Really good shocks is the best way to control wheel stands. Does anyone know if double adjustable shocks are legal for Stock eliminator?
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Well, since someone started with Fairlanes here's a few more. :)
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/jaredaebly/satisfaction03_zpst1mn32rz.jpeg) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media/satisfaction03_zpst1mn32rz.jpeg.html)
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/jaredaebly/jims-66-2_zps29e596w6.jpg) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media/jims-66-2_zps29e596w6.jpg.html)
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/jaredaebly/3965923687_186eb1e6c3_zpsatszpyr3.jpeg) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media/3965923687_186eb1e6c3_zpsatszpyr3.jpeg.html)
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/jaredaebly/maxresdefault_zpswppfmsra.jpeg) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media/maxresdefault_zpswppfmsra.jpeg.html)
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/jaredaebly/1_SVSctNXz3fGwa6v5KOSyvA_zpsxiiwsptn.jpeg) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media/1_SVSctNXz3fGwa6v5KOSyvA_zpsxiiwsptn.jpeg.html)
Maybe someday I can add mine in there :-[
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LOL Fastback.Those are indeed the parts used for crush cushion and containment.Ernie “The Attorney” Algorri definitely has Perry Mason beat for cool.
Jerico..."No pneumatic or electric shocks permitted unless such items were from the factory.No additional reservoirs allowed".There is no "between the lines" and I would say ...allowable.
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Really good shocks is the best way to control wheel stands. Does anyone know if double adjustable shocks are legal for Stock eliminator?
Looking in the rule book I think they should be. NHRA rules for Stock Eliminator shocks just says "No pneumatic or electric permitted unless such items were OEM equipment. No additional reservoirs allowed"
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Here's the business end of a well know SS Fairlane.
Looks like he has the adjustables to me.
Oh ya they work. ;D
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q128/ScotiaFE/DSC_0460_zpstt7hsvtw.jpg) (http://s135.photobucket.com/user/ScotiaFE/media/DSC_0460_zpstt7hsvtw.jpg.html)
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Did anyone at all watch the Cobra Jet video linked in my question?
FYI @ 0.30
that's some serious Flambé of something when the front end returns to the track, yet it keeps going and going
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP4S2zUgz0E
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Did anyone at all watch the Cobra Jet video linked in my question?
FYI @ 0.30
that's some serious Flambé of something when the front end returns to the track, yet it keeps going and going
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP4S2zUgz0E
Sure did.
A late model Mustang is pretty much a light weight tank.
It can take a lot of punishment.
The fragile 60's flex mobiles not so much.
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Tried to find something here but did not see anything conclusive...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH2CAjtuaNg
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Did anyone at all watch the Cobra Jet video linked in my question?
FYI @ 0.30
that's some serious Flambé of something when the front end returns to the track, yet it keeps going and going
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP4S2zUgz0E
I did watch the video, a couple times. Before I comment check out this picture of the under carriage of a late model CJ Mustang wheelstand.
(http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff437/red0wl/Roy%20Hill%20CJ%20Under.jpg) (http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/red0wl/media/Roy%20Hill%20CJ%20Under.jpg.html)
You'll notice the new Mustangs have a different arrangement in that the oil pan sump ( painted black, the aluminum pan you see behind is the transmission ) and headers are behind the front suspension and front crossmembers. You'll also notice there is no special "Bang plate", the steering rack, tie rods, etc. are all out in the open.
Now, just my opinion from watching your video, I think when that driver sensed his car wasn't going straight he eased off the throttle and the car came down hard. Normally, on a good run, the driver would of course stay on the throttle and the car would come down easy. I think the sparks you're seeing are probably from the various parts of the undercarriage scrapping the pavement and as Howie said, these new cars are tanks. I'm guessing the owner looked the car over after the run and didn't find anything seriously amiss, or fixed it if they did and were able to run again. Then they either made some tuning / driving changes on the next runs since you'll notice he kept the wheels closer to the ground after that. I'll say too that I don't think the driver totally panicked when the car got on the rear bumper cover or you would have seen the car come down much harder.
Now, Check out these two videos ( that have been posted earlier this year ) of Roy Hills runs that ended badly. On the first one I don't think Roy Hill eased off the throttle ( as much as your driver did ) when the car started going left and he wound up in the other lane. But the car didn't come down as hard. This could have ended much worse though if the two cars had contacted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWPmwb2L0ko
Now check the run he made the next day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Dsx_vYCiLY
I can't say for sure, but either the rear suspension unloaded some when it stood up or he knew it was heading for the wall and he had less room than the day before, but he let off it much harder and it was more violent. We can't see it on the video but I'll guess there were sparks too. Bottom line they didn't have that car set up right and he was trying to drive it much harder than he should have.
I re-read your question - what I thought you were asking was, if a car comes down from a wheelie too hard is there major damage - the answer is yes, quite possibly enough to not make it back the next round. I've even seen cars practicably totaled when it really goes bad. But in general the cars don't come down that hard each run. In the hands of a master and with a car set up right it's a very graceful thing. But in reading again I think what you are asking is - What has changed? In that the car in your video made it back. I think in the picture above you can see the new Mustangs have a different chassis than the older cars. But no special skid plates are employed and even the new cars can suffer serious damage on a wheel stand gone wrong.
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Now I've never generated enough oomph to drag the bumper, but I think when
you get the bumper on the ground it will probably unload the rear and drive the front down.
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Now I've never generated enough oomph to drag the bumper, but I think when
you get the bumper on the ground it will probably unload the rear and drive the front down.
Yeah, and don't get me wrong here Howie, I'm not arguing with you, just discussing. I think a lot depends on the momentum of the car - is it still trying to rotate up or is it just traveling along at the same altitude? And if it is rotating up, at what rate? The type of vehicle makes a difference too. On something like your Fairlane the substantial rear metal bumper is the lowest point, but on something like a Mustang you're going to drag the sheetmetal valence first ( actually the back up lights ) and on the new cars the bumper is just plastic of course. I think the sheetmetal floor of the spare tire well will drag first, but with enough of a "hit" it's probably still upsetting to the chassis. The question of course is, if the car is rotating up that hard and fast will it pull the rear tires off the ground anyway? Here's the same photo of the new CJ Mustang above, just not zoomed in and cropped as close.
(http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff437/red0wl/Roy%20hill%20CJ%202.jpg) (http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/red0wl/media/Roy%20hill%20CJ%202.jpg.html)
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No argument here Kevin.
When I wind the junk up my goal is to get air. ;)
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I never really understood why some guys are fixated on big wheelies. It's wasted movement, harder to control for steady 60' times and is hard on parts. Sometimes REALLY hard. I'm not talking about Howie or anyone who might get a 1' wheelie, which is cool to know your car is hooking that good, but the guys running fast cars in competition. There's absolutely no reason for Roy to ride it that high when most of the good, competitive CJ cars are barely pulling wheelies, unless he's just doing it to show off.
Now on the other hand, they LOOK cool as he!! :)
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+1 on that! Big wheelies are a waste of energy. What you want to do is transfer all the weight to the rear tires while lifting the front of the car as little as possible. Watch the youtube clip below of my Galaxie leaving at Norwalk during Drag Week in 2009. The launch is as close to perfect as I've ever had, with both tires coming up a few inches, and even from side to side...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22myUvB3S9o
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Hardly fixated but they are fun except when you kill another set of Headers. A lot of small tire cars need to get the front wheels up enough to make the rears hook. The problem is knowing when and by how much that is going to happen. It's easier to predict/control with an automatic car but for the most part, mine come out of no where. If the front doesn't lift, the 60' sucks and I tend to run slower.
Most Stock Eliminator guys (9" tire) run their quickest after a nice wheelie so while it does take some energy at the expense of forward movement, the end result is usually better due to the improved 60' time. Like almost anything however... too much generally is counter productive.
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Nice Hang Time Dale!
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It's easier to predict/control with an automatic car but for the most part, mine come out of no where. If the front doesn't lift, the 60' sucks and I tend to run slower.
No argument about the autos being easier to control. A loose converter certainly helps keep the front down. I've also noticed that with the SE and SS cars, a stick is much harder to launch while maintaining best results and keeping the front down, at least with a leaf spring car. It's not easy trying to learn the tricks that guys have perfected over 20-30 years. They tend to not talk about it much.
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I spent a lot of years TRYING to do a decent wheelie but always thought I'd be ready when it happened. Wrong..... Went up so high I chickened out on pulling 2nd gear and then when it ran out of power I crashed to the pavement. Crushed the headers, bent the pan but like an idiot I put my foot back in and ran hard to the finish line. Got to the turn off and couldn't turn the wheel because the headers were piled up into the steering linkage. Luckily. I got off the track and wasn't leaving a trail of oil.
Unfortunately, I don't think I'm any smarter today just more aware of what's happening.
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Dale I recalled your posting pics of the wheel-stand wreckage and then watching the Cobra Jet seriously "flash" something in the video. That is why I wanted to know what exactly takes the bashing?...............IF it were headers and/or pan that car likely would not have come back the next round.
For a while I sold industrial wear materials - ceramics would have made the sparks dragging the track but the hammer action would have made ceramics shatter...