FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: SRS_Chris on December 23, 2015, 10:36:00 AM
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I have been searching through the dyno section looking for comparable builds to some avail, but I wanted some direct feedback from experienced FE owners/builders as well. I have a 1963 427 build on the go right now. The customer has a target of 500-550 horsepower on pump fuel. Here is the plan thus far:
- Block: 1963 casting, no oil to lifters, cross bolted mains
- Crank: Ford 3.78 stroke
- Rod: Ford 6.488"
- Piston: Icon flat top (yield ~10.5:1 static)
- Head: Ford '63 Low riser head. Cut for 2.19 intake valve, 1.75 exhaust valve. Port work and flow testing to follow. Looking to go 260 - 270 cfm on intake while keeping CSA down.
- Intake: Ford medium riser dual quad
- Carbs: Ford/Holley BK and BJ carbs
- Camshaft: Solid Roller. Looking at Crower 16462 depending on head flow numbers. If heads flow beyond .600" without backing up will likely go to a Crower 16463.
- Lifters: Crower Solid Roller
- Rockers: Harland Sharp bushed (complete system)
I am not too proud to say that my FE experience is limited, so if you see anything that jumps out at you please let me know.
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You'll get there with that combo. I did an 11.5:1 427 LR 2x4 that made 510 hp. Rules limited me to a solid flat tappet, factory rockers, etc.
My heads flowed around 280-290 with some heavy port work and the intake was ported to match.
All of this is in the dyno results section of this forum, as well as my own website.
You will need a cam with quite a bit more duration than the ones you have picked. There aren't a lot of good off-the-shelf solid rollers for the FE...you may need to go custom depending on how your parts come together. That's not a bad thing considering you can get a fully custom cam from Comp for less than the off-the-shelf Crower....
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Welcome to the board, and I agree with Brent that you should be able to hit your HP goal. You have an excellent induction system and a good set of heads to start with. I think with the valve sizes you should be able to get to 280+ cfm on the intake port while maintaining the stock port size. I doubt the port would back up at 0.600" with the larger intake valve.
I'd be looking at a custom Comp solid roller from their High Energy street series, single pattern, probably lobe number 1476, which is 288 advertised, 244@ 0.050", and will be about 0.645" lift at the valve. Probably an LSA of 110 and set the intake centerline at 106. According to my calculator that would give you a dynamic compression ratio of 8.0:1, which would be fine with pump gas and the cast iron heads. You might also look at an Xtreme Energy street roller, probably lobe number 4875, which is 286 advertised, 248@ 0.050", and 0.676" at the valve, with the same LSA and ICL.
Also, stick with the Crower roller lifters. And don't bother to port the MR intake to the low-riser heads at the bottom of the port; won't do you any good. Hope that helps, and let us know how the build turns out!
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I've used that Xtreme Energy lobe, it's a good one.
If the OP could tell us what it's going in, what trans, what gear, etc., we could probably nail down the lobes. I like a little more duration for a racier application....probably 6-8 degree split with this one. If the rest of the combo matched, I would probably hit somewhere around the low 250's for duration, 108 LSA.
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Thanks for the feedback. The car is a street oriented 63 Galaxie with a 4 speed (original R-code car). Not sure on the rear gear ratio yet; this will be something that I discuss with the owner in the new year. My biggest concern right now is reaching our previously discussed horsepower goal without making the engine too "racy" for the Galaxie tank. I am hesitant to go too large on the cam lobes for fear of making the engine a dog down low in a heavy car.
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Don't fear the gear..... :)
You will want to be in the 240's/250's for duration depending on how the heads turn out. A tighter LSA would help with the torque and mid range if you don't need the vacuum.
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- Block: 1963 casting, no oil to lifters, cross bolted mains
I am missing something here or is ok to run a solid roller with no oil?
I thought pin oiling was pretty much mandatory for any kind of life.
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Not a slam dunk on reaching that HP level with iron heads and stock stroke and pump gas. It will be very temperamental at anything below 1000 rpm, and a bear to drive on the street with solid roller cam. A lot of builds here on these forums, but reaching an honest 500 hp with stock parts will be difficult. Not impossible, but not easy as it might seem. Simple stroke increase will change the temperament and ease of reaching that goal. Just my opinion, Joe-JDC
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Very doable. I would not put those valves in a LR head. The valves will be very close together with that valve spacing, giving potential to leaking where the valves almost touch. Also, the 2.19 intakes make it VERY thin near the spark plug, and make a future crack there more likely. I would suggest some towers (with venting) to make some oil stand in the lifter valley to help lube the lifters, or preferably drill the block for oil and use HIPPO Crower lifters. Lifter life is shorter without pressure fed oiling.
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I run a similar size roller in my 428.
I would not call it a parade cam. ;)
But with a good gear selection it works for me.
Get it spinning and it works great. ;D
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I am missing something here or is ok to run a solid roller with no oil?
I thought pin oiling was pretty much mandatory for any kind of life.
For sure its true that pin oiling will increase the lifespan of solid rollers on the street. Before pin oiling was available I ran solid rollers on the street for quite a few years, and always limited the time at low RPM. If I was in traffic, I'd rev the engine every 20-30 seconds or so to make sure I was getting plenty of splash to the lifters. Even so, I'd occasionally burn up a lifter. Since the pin oiling feature came out, I haven't lost one. Since pin oiling isn't available in the block with this build, that will be a risk. But if the spring pressure stays down, and the oil splash is there most of the time, it might be OK. Almost gotta try it and see...
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Simple stroke increase will change the temperament and ease of reaching that goal. Just my opinion, Joe-JDC
I think Joe makes a pretty good point about the stroke. If the build is not yet fixed on stroke, a 4.25" stroker kit will yield 480+ cubic inches, making 500-550 HP pretty easy. Could even dodge the roller lifter issue at that point and go flat tappet, and still get there...
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I agree. That would make the engine less finicky, but would keep the horsepower and torque up.
Back in the day, before pressure fed lifters came out, lifter manufacturers were rating their lifters for 3000 mile life spans. Not bad if you're drag racing....real bad if you're driving on the street...LOL
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Not sure if you saw my build in the dyno section or not, but my stock stroke, iron MR headed 427 SO made 497hp at 6000 RPMs. Same stroke and induction set-up that you're using with the BJ/BK MR intake. That is on a basically un-modified 427 using factory iron and a flat tappet cam. To reach the 550 mark would take some doing, some good head/valve work and a stout valvetrain/roller set-up.
I have a couple of things working against me on my build. The stock unported heads already had the larger TP 2.25 valves installed, which probably doesn't help much on my build, being a street engine. The duration numbers are pretty big at 264@.050, but it helped to keep the lift down and made it easier on the valvetrain for street use. I have a solid lifter block, so a flat tappet solid cam was pretty much my only choice without resorting to extensive drilling for lifter oiling, which I wanted to stay away from. Still, my engine will idle fine at 800-900 rpm and pulls away from an idle fine, but that's in a 4spd car with 3.89 gears and a lighter Mustang body, although I do have 28" tall tires also. Some decent gearing, like 3.89 minimum, will certainly help if he plans on keeping the 3.78 stroke, as will a heavier flywheel. A heavier flywheel will not only help the idle, but will help get the car rolling easier.
There is nothing trick about my engine, and it reached your goal, so it's certainly doable with good tuning and cam selection. I do agree with Joe though, the duration figures are going to have to be fairly stout if you stick with factory iron. I don't have any problems driving mine on the street, even with in-town driving, but I don't deal with heavy city or bumper to bumper stuff either.
Here's a short clip I just uploaded so you can hear the idle.
https://youtu.be/PDiG2OSZ0bw
In the first couple minutes of this clip you can see the driving characteristics. After that it's just open road driving.
https://youtu.be/4QCcUptqPIc
Hopefully that might help you out some.
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I rode i dougs car and can confirm
It runs fine and pulls Hard from the
Bottom
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If the OP, or anyone else for that matter, wants help selecting gears I'm happy to help out by creating a gear spreadsheet for you. I can show you approximately the speed the car will reach in each gear at the shift point and what the RPM's will be after the shift. It can be a helpful tool when looking at various ratios and how they will impact the car. I take your shift point RPM, tire size, and trans gear ratios and look at the various final drive ratios available for your given rear end. Also helpful if you are looking at various transmission options. The math is sound and accurate to a few MPH and RPMs, unless you start nearing 200 MPH and then wind resistance becomes a PITA and all hell breaks loose. Aero becomes an issue and you start dealing with is the car gear limited or power limited. For street / freeway driving, it's a reliable way to look at the problem.
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Thanks for the information everyone. I will be sure to post updated information as this motor comes together. It likely won't see the dyno until spring.
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I'm happy to help out by creating a gear spreadsheet for you.
That might make a good sticky or some other way for quick reference.
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The math is sound and accurate to a few MPH and RPMs, unless you start nearing 200 MPH and then wind resistance becomes a PITA and all hell breaks loose. Aero becomes an issue and you start dealing with is the car gear limited or power limited.
Gearing math shouldn't change with MPH or wind resistance...unless you have tire slippage, or maybe a converter is slipping in an automatic transmission. Do people still use those things? ;D
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Some years ago I built a 390 with 'good parts'. I used a C4 PI block. I also used 'F5' Dove so-called Canadian CJ heads in aluminum with 2.100 and 1.65 valves. I used a Dove single 4 intake and had both heads and manifold massaged and matched by Wayne Kuchtyn at Headwinds.
Comp did up a solid roller for me after I spec'd it as giving the 'most possible while having the street manners of a factory AA cam'. They gave me 242-248 at .050, 110, and .658-.666. It idled at 800 or so, pulled hard to 7500, and made more than your target 500.
Since a custom cam grind from Comp only costs a little bit more than an 'off-the-shelf' I'd certainly look into it.
KS
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Gearing math shouldn't change with MPH or wind resistance...unless you have tire slippage, or maybe a converter is slipping in an automatic transmission. Do people still use those things? ;D
True, that it shouldn't change but the problem you'll face is that the MPH is unobtainable without more power. That's what I was trying to say. I've spec'd a real-life trans and diff combo that could hit roughly 300 MPH, using a TKO 600 and 2.73. The problem is the power required to go that fast is in quadruple digits in any car. You can use the same math though to show if your problem will be gearing instead of power to hit a desired speed. And rolling resistance comes into play and you can't look at this in a simple linear way because tires don't have a linear performance but this only has a small impact on actual speed vs theoretical.
In the end, I also don't want someone to take a spreadsheet I created and say I built it using these precise numbers, why can't I hit 100 MPH in 4th when your math says it can hit 101?!?!? I trust my numbers but I don't feel like being on the hook LOL.
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would you mind doing the math for us common folks ? I have ' 61 390 hi po in a '62 ranchero with straight axle , four speed , 3:00 gear , 26 inch tires . I drive it a lot , about 7000 miles , cheap tack reads 3000 rpm at about 70 mph . I do not think it is right , but have not taken the time to change the tack . auto gauge tack .
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I have created a thread for the calculator and any discussion about gear ratios should probably move over there so as to not hijack this thread. :)
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would you mind doing the math for us common folks ? I have ' 61 390 hi po in a '62 ranchero with straight axle , four speed , 3:00 gear , 26 inch tires . I drive it a lot , about 7000 miles , cheap tack reads 3000 rpm at about 70 mph . I do not think it is right , but have not taken the time to change the tack . auto gauge tack .
Check the other thread for my comments and questions on your setup.
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An update on this project...
The C3AE-H heads flowed really well out of the gate. A basic three angle valve job and some minor blending in the bowl has yielded 271cfm@.500", 277cfm@.600", and 280cfm@.700" with a 2.19" valve. These are much better numbers than I expected from these vintage iron heads. I have a few more minor things that I want to try in the throat and at the SSR in an attempt to get solid 280's at .500 - .600 lift.
The exhaust is flowing equally well with minor clean up. Peak flow is around 220 cfm @ .700 lift.
Does anyone have any tried and true Low Riser porting tips they wish to share?
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Hey Joe,
Do you mind posting a link? Not finding your posting in the search. Only going to get harder as the months pass.
Thanks
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To the original poster:
I realize that you're selling 500 horsepower to a customer so this post might not be relevant. I know little of building an engine to a dyno number.
The engine you describe in the opening post could easily run 11's in a 3300 lb. car with 4.56's, a flat tappet cam 245@.050 with .600 lift, and 10" slicks. I've seen Low Riser 427's in Mustangs do it time and again. There are few on the street that can run harder. I can't really tell you if that takes 500 hp or not.
As far as the center oiler 427's and solid rollers go, for me at least, it's kind'a moot. Your springs will go away WAY before your lifters will. From my experience, springs every year as normal maintenance, lifters every third. This I learned the hard way running the old Comp 308R...with which I "tickled" the 10's in my Mustang.
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Thanks for the feedback Tommy. I appreciate the experienced input. There are dozens of formulas out there that people (myself included) use to calculate horsepower, airflow, required intake valve size, etc, etc, but relevant experience trumps all in my opinion.
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Where would I find the link to the calcutator for gear ratios
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Unrelated to this thread, but try this link...
http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm
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Where would I find the link to the calcutator for gear ratios
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=3411.0
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Thanks for the link!
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Update...
After some more measuring and careful shaping of the SSR, the heads are flowing well right up to .700 lift. Peak flow is just over 290cfm@28". 280@.500 and 288 @.600 with next to zero loss at lower lift values. More importantly, the gains came with minimal change in CSA. I am pleased with these results. These heads should work just fine on this 427FE.