FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: turbohunter on December 12, 2015, 12:06:05 PM
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The new HS rockers have me wondering about the race specific differences in bushed vs bearing rockers.
Would you guys with experience in both please comment on the pluses and minuses.
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All your higher end rockers, such as T&D, have needle bearings. They require less oil to operate....which is good for higher end applications, where you need to save the oil for the bottom end.
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That's what I thought. Which makes me wonder why HS would use a bushing in "race" rockers.
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That's what I thought. Which makes me wonder why HS would use a bushing in "race" rockers.
Cost. The T&D race set-up is much more expensive. There's nothing wrong with bushed rockers in a street or race application. They've been used for decades with success. The needle bearing rockers may offer less resistance, better oil usage and handle higher spring pressures better, but like anything, there can be downsides. With needle bearing rockers you need to keep a closer eye on them. A failure can destroy an engine. There have been LOTS of drag engines that have successfully ran the Dove wide body rockers, which don't even have a bushing. To me, the Cranes are a step up, with the T&D needle bearing rockers being another step up from the Cranes. Everything has its trade offs.
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Found out some more about the "new" rockers. Asked my brother to go over and check them out.
The stands are full length, the shafts are solid. Those caps were missing just to show what's underneath at the show.
This setup has been made for years as a private label for Denbeste. They changed owners and went to another manufacturer. Harland thought it was a nice piece and wanted to make them available under their name.
I have some real nice pics I will post as soon as this damn IPad lets me.
Edit
Ryan just told me that the current shafts are to large for HS needle bearings. He says he could remake it with a 2piece 5/8 shaft for bearings.
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(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/turbohunter1/image.jpg3.jpg)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/turbohunter1/image.jpg2.jpg)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/turbohunter1/image.jpg1.jpg)
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Following up on what Doug said, it seems these have a lot to offer a budget build of a race motor.
Solid shaft, full length stands, push rod oiling, bushings for less to worry about.
Sure it may not cycle as well as a good set of bearings but unless you're an ss motor trying to find every sliver of power, no down side.
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Nice Picts, looks like a nice setup.
Personally I think as far as the shaft oiling setup the ersons had the best of both worlds. Some of us can't do the push rod oiling, old vintage non drilled lifter Galley blocks. True they could be drilled but that's costly. I'm working on a 9 point mounting setup for my erson stands. I think it can be done and it may be crude but any help at all is better than relying just on the 4 bolt system with 750-800 lb spring pressures..
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4 bolt rocker stands and 750lb springs will not cut it.
The stands will start squirming around.
We had to back off the spring pressure, ditch the solid roller, and go with a solid flat tappet on my tunnel port
because of that very thing.
You're into race T&D's at those pressures
Good luck
garyv
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I'd like to get ahold Of a set of these, or atleast some good images of them. Supposedly there are atleast a few sets that were made and out there somewhere. 9 POINT mounting with STOCK OILING .
(http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j387/fekbmax/Screenshot_2015-12-11-21-15-33-1-1-1_zpsrex8aya7.png) (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/fekbmax/media/Screenshot_2015-12-11-21-15-33-1-1-1_zpsrex8aya7.png.html)(http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j387/fekbmax/Screenshot_2015-12-12-18-32-40-1-1_zpsylvpx1p3.png) (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/fekbmax/media/Screenshot_2015-12-12-18-32-40-1-1_zpsylvpx1p3.png.html)
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"Saving precious weight in the valvetrain?" ?????
Since when does going to an oiling pushrod make the valvetrain that much heavier? If you're trying to push 700-800 lb springs, a regular 3/8" ball/cup pushrod isn't gonna cut the mustard anyway....and I would venture to say that that the big cup end would actually make a pushrod heavier.
Unless you're dealing with a block that doesn't oil, I see no negatives about using a rocker system that uses pushrod oiling. Most of your solid lifters are orifice metered anyway, so they restrict the amount of oil going to the top. In extreme cases, such as drag racing, where the amount of oil can really be cut down, you can get restrictor pushrods.
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Hey Brent, while you're here what's your first impression of the new HS system?
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For big dog spring pressures, I don't want something held to the head by (4) bolts or studs. I pulled a rocker stud out of an aluminum head with 650 lbs open pressure once. Don't ever want it to happen again. I use race T&D setups for all of my aluminum FE solid roller setups. Just can't afford any issues and would rather have it done right from the get-go.
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I see your point.
Would the solid shaft help with that by keeping the load well spread out?
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I have never doubted The superior TD system or the fact that the push rod oiling system is by far the better setup. I'm only saying that for blocks that are not drilled and guys that can't make the costly $ of drilling a block properly and then still spending the $ on a race TD setup, that I wondered why the conventional setup hasn't been made with the 9 point fastening. Surely it could be done.
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For big dog spring pressures, I don't want something held to the head by (4) bolts or studs. I pulled a rocker stud out of an aluminum head with 650 lbs open pressure once. Don't ever want it to happen again. I use race T&D setups for all of my aluminum FE solid roller setups. Just can't afford any issues and would rather have it done right from the get-go.
I've got over 2000 of miles on Ersons this summer and running pretty close to 650 on the street.
Not to mention some passes with a goof at the helm.
Everything looks good.
I think this new Harland Shape setup looks pretty stout.
I'd give it a spin on my junk.
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Didn't you replace the heilcoils with timeserts Howie? I'm sure that added to the reliability. On my customer stuff, the difference between street t&d and race t&d is only a couple hundred smacks, so I just choose to go whole hog. The race setup is about as good as it gets.
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That's a good point for us guys using BBMs Brent.
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Hmm, seems I missed the "new" part of your original post. I wasn't aware of that newer HS system. Looks like a nice system, but I'd have to side with Brent on the T&D Race system for big springs and aluminum heads. 4 bolts just won't cut it. That new set-up looks nice for a hot street engine or with iron heads and something less than the spring pressures mentioned above. Although it doesn't look any better than the Oregon Cams support system that I use, so I wonder if it's cheaper or more expensive.
I forget who made that set that Keith posted, but I doubt you'll be able to find them. I remember them from years back, but have NEVER seen a set at any swap meet, let alone on any car. I do remember that Mario made a set from scratch that was similar in concept, years back. But he's pretty adept at using CAD programs and has access to CNC equipment. They did look nice though.
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Get it all. Not arguing. Just reporting. :)
The HS guys told Jared 800-900 lbs.
"They looked very nice. The guy said they should handle 8-900lbs open pressure no problem. I asked him if someone has a stout setup, if they would make a stand base to tie into the head bolts like T&D. He said he would think about it for future design, so I guess we'll see."
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The HS guys told Jared 800-900 lbs.
Salesmen and PR guys will say just about anything ::) My first question to them would have been "So how many 800-900 lb spring systems have you tested these on?"
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The HS guys told Jared 800-900 lbs.
Salesmen and PR guys will say just about anything ::) My first question to them would have been "So how many 800-900 lb spring systems have you tested these on?"
I knew when he told me that, the factory mounting was not going to be sufficient to hold that spring pressure. I have a feeling he meant the rocker arm itself will withstand that pressure. That's why I asked him if they would look into an alternative stand that ties into the head bolts.
fekbmax- I did mention to him it will not work with a solid lifter block. He said he just learned of that recently, but I doubt the oiling will be changed.
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After looking at that stand system better, I don't like it. Except for near each end, there's absolutely nothing clamping the shaft down from bolt to bolt, and it's only the bolts. Regular stands are supporting/clamping at least 1 1/2" on either side of each pair of rockers. With that new system, that's a long space with nothing holding the shaft. Solid or not, it can flex with high spring pressures. It seems like a step backwards from the Oregon system. Why they didn't at least provide a clamping system at each bolt is beyond me.
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Hey Doug, not pictured are the two center hold downs like stock. It has aluminum "caps" to cover the top half of the shaft and provide a wider surface for the hold down bolt/stud. It uses 4 standard bolt/studs to secure to the head and the smaller bolts clamping the shaft further to the stand. With a solid shaft and stand, combined with the additional bolts, I don't see this flexing too much. I believe the weak point will be the 4 standard mounting points.
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Solid roller=T&D paired shaft system. It costs $600 to drill a block that does not have lifter oiling.........much less than the repairs and headaches of trying conventionally mounted failures. Before T&D, we ran every kind of set-up......created our own.....ran stuff other racers built...that was a Dove "super heavy duty" in the pic above, BTW. There have been all kinds of band-aid attempts. Some worked better than others, but when Torres came along with the head bolt mounted subplate, the FE was cured. Their single shaft version, and several others, are reliable at 550 open pressure, but that is about the end. Past that, it is a matter of when.....not if.........they will break a shaft.
Nothing at all wrong with bushings, especially for endurance or street use..........less to fail. Needle bearings rule in very high lift, and /or drag race use. The needle bearings will bleed MUCH more oil than a bushing, so adjust accordingly..........
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Their single shaft version, and several others, are reliable at 550 open pressure, but that is about the end. Past that, it is a matter of when.....not if.........they will break a shaft.
Acknowledge that for normal shafts. Do you think with these 3/4 solid shafts it would be different?
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So have any of you guys actually ever seen a set of the dove super heavy duty ? Jim told me about 6 months ago that there are some sets out there and some of "there guys" run them on roundy round dirt , he also said they are made to order and take about 3 months. Now I think he has alot of knowledge and is over all a great guy and back in the 80's - 90's Dove did alot of good things to keep the FE alive but truth be told as alot of us know with Dove 3 month's turns to years in a hurry. I'm for sure not faulting Jim or Dove, I know they have had issue's with casting, molds, and forms and such for ever. From my understanding from the last time I spoke with him, he no longer is the owner of Dove manufacturing ?? When I ask about some stuff Dove had listed on eBay he kept saying that wasn't him and it was stuff the "owners son" had taken from the shop and listed. Was confusing to me and odd to be told to call him for any orders and not purchase the stuff from eBay. Something about it being old display stuff (I'm talking all the rocker arm stuff that was there not long ago but no longer). Wondering if he sold his name or maybe the majority share of Dove manufacturing ??
Anyway I'll hush, I'm rambling, doubt there's much attention.
Basic question though is above, anyone ever actually seen a set of these ?
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The "new" rocker setup will be better on a street deal because all the rockers and shafts are coupled together with a bar and a solid shaft - should reduce the tendency for squirm and flex. Solid shaft is a good idea. I tend to agree with the comments about the factory fastener deal being a limit on system strength. I had the "pleasure" of having a pair of rocker systems pull from the heads and punch through the valve covers on the dyno. Four 3/8 fasteners simply ain't enough - the T&D race deal for the win.
Bushings are perfectly fine. Might be better. Seems to be a coming trend for roller lifters and work rather well for piston pins. Remember that roller rockers do not "use" the entire needle bearing diameter. Only a few needles are really carrying the load, they have point contact, and the roll action or sweep is under 90 degrees.
Jim has been working through some significant health issues these past many months. No idea at all what the eventual fate of his company will be, his brother and a long time friend/employee have been trying to keep things moving to an extent. Dove rarely seems to get the credit he deserves for keeping the FE alive though the 80s and 90s.
When Jim would show up at Engine Masters some folks would comment about things that did not matter - like cosmetics. But the Dove entry was the only one where he MADE the heads, the block, the intake, the rockers, the valve covers and more himself. Nobody else can say that.
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Speaking of Dove.....I feel like the Dove end stands that bolt to the special head bolts, almost always get overlooked. It is an intermediate step between the factory setup and the race T&D setup. 6 bolts per side. And you can use it with bushed rockers.
JMO,
paulie
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee289/plovett/Dove%20Rocker%20Arm%20End%20Stands_zpslvuxak6u.jpg) (http://s231.photobucket.com/user/plovett/media/Dove%20Rocker%20Arm%20End%20Stands_zpslvuxak6u.jpg.html)
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I totally agree, guys have been using that setup with good results for years. I have a set new of those end stands in the box, 2 brand new H/D shafts, PoP center stands, its a Hodge podge of different brands. All I need is a set of rockers to make a complete spare set. All else aside, who gets the nod.. Dove ? PoP ? HS ? How about the TnD street rockers ? Can the be bought separate or do they use a different dia shaft ?
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The Dove end supports are a step in the right direction. They are only 5/16 bolts, but still the right direction. I have often considered using a bottom plate, like the HS pictured, and a countersunk 7/16 under the shaft for mounting. Also thought of larger shafts like that, with a .125 through hole for oil. Lots of ways to approach it. The main problem is the 3/8 bolts....and only four, are not enough for serious roller cam spring loads. The T&D has eight 7/16 holding the stand. I have had a total of two Dove super HD units....both somewhat mangled and stuffed in a box here someplace.
The single shaft T&D is not compatible with stock-size stuff. The Dove end support will only engage an extra length Dove shaft. He should not have put two sets of oil holes in those otherwise OK shafts.
I like the single shaft T&D for high lift flat tappet or hydraulic rollers. I lean more toward a bushed non adjustable with heavy shafts, studs, and end supports for streetable hydraulic rollers. That works very well up to 400-425 open, with no bearings, no adjusters, and no roller tip to fail. Good for 2-300 more rpm than aftermarket stuff that has more inertia weight.
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I tend to agree with Paulie. I ran the Dove end stands when I had a Hi Riser in my Mustang. Plenty stout for flat tappets and street rollers.
Just wanted to touch on what Blair said above about the 4 fasteners being good to 550. That's a lot. It's plenty for any solid roller that I'd personally run on the street. My only solid roller experience is with the old 308R Comp. At .670 260@.050 it's not small...but not big either. I tickled the 10's with a car that had a 3000 stall converter and 4.11's. Never turned more than 65000 rpm. My point is that you can run pretty hard with the stock mounting stuff. I've had really good luck with the Dove, Harland Sharp, and POP rockers. They're all good.
My advise for anybody running a solid roller on the street. It's the springs going away that'll tear your motor up. Once things start fly'n 'round uncontrolled...rocker arms, pushrods, lifters, and other things I forgot to mention get broken and bent. Been there, ain't go'n back. For me it's replace the springs as normal winter maintenance every year, and lifters every third year...even if they roll nice 'n smooth.
For you race guys, forget anything I've mentioned. I'm nowhere near your territory.
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For what it's worth, I ran 240 on the seat and 620 over the nose on my 2005 Drag Week motor. I modified the Edelbrock heads to remove the heli-coils for the rocker shaft bolts, and drilled and tapped for E-Z Loks with a 5/8" outside diameter, and the 3/8-16 ID. Ran an Erson rocker setup. Later, I put those heads and rocker setup on my 492" dyno mule and ran all my intake tests on that engine with that setup. I'm pretty convinced that the larger diameter of the E-Z Loks allowed the heads to hold up to those spring pressures.
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I'm only running 405 lbs open pressure on my Harland Sharp/Dove Stand combo. I don't know what it's limits are in terms of spring pressure. I was thinking about using this setup on my next engine with solid roller cam, and maybe with better/bigger fasteners. I still might try that.
paulie
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I ran stuff similar to what Jay described for quite a while. After getting more aggressive on cam and spring I pulled the original helicoils out, and ended up using large threaded inserts - they were made from some kind of big threaded rod like you see used in a vise, drilled and tapped to 3/8ths. We also went to having a pair of 1/8" dowels in each stand to keep them straight and locked into position on the head.
Worked OK but once I went to the T&D stuff on a BT head the improvement was profound - more effective lift with the same cam due to a reduction in flex and squirm. And nothing ever broke again - ever.
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No doubt that the T&D race stuff is the best out there...
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Just for some reference but my 427 with Dove heads and Erson rockers have 680 lb springs and I've never broke one or pulled a heli-coil out. The 428 I'm currently using also has Dove heads, slightly bigger springs and Dove HD rockers and stands. That engine has been run hard for years before I got it and never an issue. Time serts would certainly make me feel better but the Dove HD setup is pretty stout. No bushings or bearing on the rockers.
The Erson stands are weak and I see signs of fretting under the studs so obviously they are being stressed and I may be on borrowed time with them. Their rockers have bearings and I like them but you end up with smaller diameter shafts to accommodate the bearing. As mentioned T&D are the ticket for serious race engines but on a street build I don't think there's any difference between the bushed, non bushed or bearing rockers as long as you avoid some of that cheap but shiny offshore stuff out there now. JMO
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In regard to rockers and bearings or bushings or what have you, let me stress something that Barry alluded to above.
In a discussion on the subject with Jim Dove, he pointed to the fact that wrist pins run in pistons with nothing added in the way of bushings or bearings. If it works for pistons there's no reason that anything more is necessary on a suitably-designed rocker.
In addition, when I went to Ohio to pick up the stuff for the engine I was doing, all that was necessary in order to get the HD rocker set-up was for Jim to holler across the hall from his office for the girl who was in charge of that department and tell her to assemble what we'd just discussed. I went over there and watched her grab the proper parts from the waiting bins.
KS
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In regard to rockers and bearings or bushings or what have you, let me stress something that Barry alluded to above.
In a discussion on the subject with Jim Dove, he pointed to the fact that wrist pins run in pistons with nothing added in the way of bushings or bearings. If it works for pistons there's no reason that anything more is necessary on a suitably-designed rocker.
KS
Picked up on that. Thank you guys.
Seems that for us budget conscious guys you don't lose anything with bushings (or not) and you eliminate one more point of possible failure.
Think I'm gonna snag one of these "new" HS deals, mock it up and see what's up with it. I prolly won't have to big a cam in my motor and will try to only spin it to 6500.
I think I'll get another base plate and give it to my nephew at SCE and let him fool with it to maybe pick up head holes (like Dove).
I realize I could just buy a TD set up and be done with it but what fun would that be. Also realize it's all been done before and you gurus are over it. But I'm just getting back into it after raising a family and divorces and I'm having a blast.
I'll be sure to post progress.
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Berry mentioned pining the stands above. I've wondered if hollow dowels ,like the heads use, with the head and stand counter bored would stabilize the stands.
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The needle bearings on stock diameter shafts make the rockers weaker, they'll break between the pushrod and shaft. They bleed a lot of oil and if you try restricting the oil you will melt the end pushrod cups off.
One idea I had for my High Riser but haven't done was to make "bottleneck" studs 1/2" diameter where they go into the head necking down to 3/8" to fit through the shaft. The stands would need to be drilled out and obviously the heads too. The heads could always be fixed to resell by using thread inserts.