FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: cjshaker on November 30, 2015, 09:10:50 PM
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I'm needing some input on axle spline count and what type to use in a 90% drag duty car, so I'm hoping I can get some feedback from the regular racers here.
I currently have a heavy duty Currie rear housing with big bearing ends, a Strange Pro Series iron center section with a Daytona pinion support, Detroit Locker and 31 spline Currie axles. I think the axles are the weak point but wonder if anyone has raced with Currie axles and if any problems were had with them? Do you guys think they could withstand a 500hp engine with 5000 rpm launches in a 3500lb car with a stick shift and sticky tires? On the street I don't worry about them because of obvious traction limitations, but I'll be doing some strip time next year.
I've been looking at the Mark Williams and Strange Eng. websights, but they are a little vague about what each axle can handle. So in a nutshell, should I upgrade my axles? And if so, is 31 spline good enough for the above mentioned scenario? And while I'm at it, what if the scenario involved the same parameters but with a 650hp engine? Any input would be appreciated.
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I do it.
I let it go at 5000 rpm and then worry about all the other things that could break. :P
I'd bet you break the TL before you break an axle. ;)
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When I got Mark Williams axles for my Mach 1 in 2005 they suggested their Masterline 31 spline axles. Said they were good to low 10 second times in a car like mine, which was 3600 pounds and 700 HP. Probably their premium 31 spline axles would be good for high nines in the same car.
For my Galaxie, which weighed 3935 with me in it, and ran mid 9s, they suggested stepping up to a 35 spline axle. And I went with 40 spline on my Shelby clone, which was probably overkill, but better safe than sorry.
Hope that helps - Jay
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I do it.
I let it go at 5000 rpm and then worry about all the other things that could break. :P
I'd bet you break the TL before you break an axle. ;)
That's right, Howie, you have Currie axles don't you? How long have you had them in the car?
But the difference between the TL or the rear axle breaking being the TL likely wouldn't send me into a wall ;) I'll be adding a Jerico and Gear Vendors to the equation in the future, and I just rebuilt the TL with an aftermarket large input shaft, new gears etc. So hopefully it will get me through at least 1-2 years before things get a bit more serious.
When I got Mark Williams axles for my Mach 1 in 2005 they suggested their Masterline 31 spline axles. Said they were good to low 10 second times in a car like mine, which was 3600 pounds and 700 HP. Probably their premium 31 spline axles would be good for high nines in the same car.
Thanks, Jay. Since the weight and HP will increase, along with the shock of a manual shift car, I was leaning towards the 35 spline, but maybe that's a bit of overkill. MW has a very good reputation. What size studs do you use in the Mach and Galaxie?
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I would go 35 and their is no other choice but M/W!
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The axles are about 10 years old.
I've changed the studs though.
I only use a 9 inch tire also so not a lot of rubber either.
And the clutch is pretty light. so it leaves pretty soft.
Which for me is a good thing. Cause if I start spitting parts out I don't really have
the wallet to fix it.
The clutch will be the key.
I'd rather punish the clutch, than the gear box or rear end. ;)
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I went with the 35 spline street/strip axles with 5/8" studs for the street Mustang. Most likely overkill but won't have to worry about axles. If you already have the setup for 31 spline axles and want to go to 35 spline, you'll have to get the right differential for it and a 3.25" bore case. If you drive on the street the race axles aren't really recommended for street use.
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s156/oldafretired/IMG_3604_zpspjjjckns.jpg)
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The clutch will be the key.
I'd rather punish the clutch, than the gear box or rear end. ;)
The clutch is probably more accurately the weak point. Right now it's just a heavy duty Ram unit, not exactly ideal for slicks. A sintered iron unit will wait until the Jerico gets involved.
If you already have the setup for 31 spline axles and want to go to 35 spline, you'll have to get the right differential for it and a 3.25" bore case.
Thanks, Afret. I have an extra 31 and 35 spline locker now. The 31 I just bought to set up with a higher gear set for on the strip. That's partially why I was asking....use the axles I have or cough up the dough for another set for the 35 spline unit? But I also have my doubts on the Currie axles, as far as holding up to years of strip abuse. For just a year or two I'm not so concerned, but if I have to build the center section now, I may as well do the job right the first time so I don't have to change everything in a couple years.
Edit because I wanted to add that MW says on their websight that you can use their 35 spline axles in a large bearing housing, which I have.
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On the Galaxie and the Mach 1 I still use the 1/2" wheel studs, but they are the 3" racing units. I've never had a bending problem, but I always torque the lug nuts. I think the guys who have issues bending the wheel studs don't have the lug nuts tight enough, and therefore don't have a good clamp between the wheel and the axle flange.
I do have the 5/8" studs on my Shelby clone. I like them because they look cool ;D ;D
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Don't get me wrong if I could afford it, I'd have all the good stuff.
I feel lucky I can afford to even get the car down the track in one piece.
If you can afford it go for it.
I will say the clutch is like the shock absorber. The harder the clutch the more shock.
Speaking of that.
Don't over look the rear shocks. If you get into wheel hop territory that will break things faster than any thing.
My Fairlane is a pretty heavy car with me in it so it will never really be a fast car
and I don't take it to serious, kind of like golf.
I can play but I don't really take it to serious. I don't even keep score anymore. ::)
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I ran moser 33 spline for several years and never had a prob. That was with 1/2" studs and a 4-1/2" bolt circle even. At the time I was running a rollerised C6 with a low gear set and a 5200rpm 9" converter. Ofcourse when I changed to the Clutchless shift jerico I went with moser 35 spline/spool setup.. They have one of the best replacement guarantee's in the business...
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The clutch will be the key.
I'd rather punish the clutch, than the gear box or rear end. ;)
The clutch is probably more accurately the weak point. Right now it's just a heavy duty Ram unit, not exactly ideal for slicks. A sintered iron unit will wait until the Jerico gets involved.
If you already have the setup for 31 spline axles and want to go to 35 spline, you'll have to get the right differential for it and a 3.25" bore case.
Thanks, Afret. I have an extra 31 and 35 spline locker now. The 31 I just bought to set up with a higher gear set for on the strip. That's partially why I was asking....use the axles I have or cough up the dough for another set for the 35 spline unit? But I also have my doubts on the Currie axles, as far as holding up to years of strip abuse. For just a year or two I'm not so concerned, but if I have to build the center section now, I may as well do the job right the first time so I don't have to change everything in a couple years.
Edit because I wanted to add that MW says on their websight that you can use their 35 spline axles in a large bearing housing, which I have.
I was referring to your Strange iron case and not your housing ends. I think it's good to have the big Ford housing ends but the iron case for your 31 spline axles probably has a 3.062" bore but you need a different case with the bigger 3.25" bore for the 35 spline axles. Might be good to leave your center section alone and get a new 3.25" case and build another one with your 35 spline locker.
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I've been running Mark Williams Masterline 31 spline for 15 years. Everything from 300 to 500 HP, lots and lots of passes - I won't even guess how many. 2004 and 2005 I had 1916 (one thousand nine hundred sixteen) time slips in a box for just those two years. The Mustang has Strange 31s, going on 7 years. Stock cases, stock pinion supports, Timken bearings and Richmond parts. No issues.
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I think you can go 35 without having to change the housing ends. If you're going to buy a new set of axles and a new diff, I think I'd go as big as possible.
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I think you can go 35 without having to change the housing ends. If you're going to buy a new set of axles and a new diff, I think I'd go as big as possible.
Yup, I think there are bearings that will let you use the 35 spline axles with the small housing ends but he already has the big housing ends.
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I wasn't aware that the 35 spline took a larger bore center housing. Since I was planning on buying a separate center case anyway, and leaving my old one complete for street duty, I'll just step up to the 35 axles and the bigger center for its future use in another car and build this one with the 31s and a higher gear for the Mustang and next years Reunion.
Thanks everyone for the great info and feedback.
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M/W 35 spline in my car with 5/8ths drive studs. !0 years and never a problem but it's been two seasons since I've had them out. I'm considering buying a spare set although not sure if I'll ever need them. Keep in mind that M/W has their own spline configuration and you have to run their spool. Not sure on the Masterline Series so calling them wouldn't hurt.
Funny what they told Jay. When I called about parts I was told I should go with the 40 spline Pro Mod setup. Serious overkill for my junk.
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I think you can go 35 without having to change the housing ends. If you're going to buy a new set of axles and a new diff, I think I'd go as big as possible.
Yup, I think there are bearings that will let you use the 35 spline axles with the small housing ends but he already has the big housing ends.
Usually 31 and 35 are the same price. The deal is that with 31s you can keep your locker, otherwise you're out that expense too if you up the spline count. As noted above.
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Keep in mind that M/W has their own spline configuration and you have to run their spool. Not sure on the
Some pics of rear I pieced together using Currie 35 spline (they can do a MW spline) I'm using MW spool, Strange large case, Large housing ends (recommended for 35 spline) ball bearing support motive REM finished gears.
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M/W 35 spline in my car with 5/8ths drive studs. !0 years and never a problem but it's been two seasons since I've had them out. I'm considering buying a spare set although not sure if I'll ever need them. Keep in mind that M/W has their own spline configuration and you have to run their spool. Not sure on the Masterline Series so calling them wouldn't hurt.
Funny what they told Jay. When I called about parts I was told I should go with the 40 spline Pro Mod setup. Serious overkill for my junk.
I saw that about their spline design, so yeah, I'll have to call them. I won't be using a spool though, I want to stick with a locker so I can at least drive it occasionally to a couple of local events.
I had to look back at my paperwork and remembered that Currie had some supply issues when I bought my rear 17 years ago. They supplied me with Strange axles, so that relieved any doubts I had about that. Now I'll just build the extra center section with higher ratio for the Mustang and concentrate on another rear with 35 spline for another project.
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What ratio are you thinking of going to Doug?
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Since this is in the Mustang and only for fun at the FE Reunion, and I don't have a rollbar or subframe connectors, I've got to take it a little easy on it. I've been playing with some of the calculators online and not knowing what the car will run or its speed makes it a guess, but to get the most out of the car would probably take something like a 4.56. I don't want to wind the engine past 6500 though so I'm leaning towards the 4.33s. For the other project, with a heavier car and a lot more engine, I'll probably need something around the 4.80 area.
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I love the 4.33 in mine. Miles per gallon? Nah, it's smiles per gallon! When I finally got my car to the track this fall, it was going through at about 5600@104mph. This was with a 27in drag radial. I was launching around 3k. I will be installing my new subframe connectors before I head back in the spring and will get a real set of slicks and launch harder and see what happens.
Here is what I like to use to calculate things- http://www.summitracing.com/popup/calcsandtools/gear-ratio-calculator
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>Keep in mind that M/W has their own spline configuration and you have to run their spool.
Not so on the Masterline axles, at least my 31 spline parts. I've run Moser and Strange spools along with the Trac-tech soft locker that is in the car now.
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>Keep in mind that M/W has their own spline configuration and you have to run their spool.
Not so on the Masterline axles, at least my 31 spline parts. I've run Moser and Strange spools along with the Trac-tech soft locker that is in the car now.
Yes, according to MW, the 31 spline will work with standard lockers. I believe they also offer custom machining on their other axles, so that may be an option I have to go for. I'll have to call to verify that though. I really don't want to go with a spool.
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What size tire are/will you be using?
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The Mustang uses MT ET Streets, 28" tall. I'm curious, do you know approximately how much HP your engine makes? I've ran a few GPS based 1/4 mile runs with basically no traction taking off and supposedly ran over 100mph. I don't put much stock in the accuracy though. Honestly, I'd be happy to hit mid 12s and not twist the frame ???
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The Mustang uses MT ET Streets, 28" tall. I'm curious, do you know approximately how much HP your engine makes? I've ran a few GPS based 1/4 mile runs with basically no traction taking off and supposedly ran over 100mph. I don't put much stock in the accuracy though. Honestly, I'd be happy to hit mid 12s and not twist the frame ???
Well, it has never been dynoed. The motor was a mild rebuild about 25yrs ago and is a little wheezy now I think. Maybe 10.2-10.3:1, .030 over, mild hyd. flat tappet. By the Moroso slide calc. I have, at a solid 3750-3800lbs, I figure probably around 4-415ish hp? I should have enough if the stars are aligned to get mid twelves. I wouldn't worry about twisting the frame. However, mine shows signs of harsh racing in the past with a healthier setup around the rear wheel lips and back quarter windows, there is some cracking in the paint. I need to get the subframe connectors in to stop this. Most obvious on a stick car. I ran out of time this fall to get them in with the hydramat ordeal, so I just ran it anyway. I wanted to get to the track the last two years but kept having things come up.
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I love the 4.33 in mine. Miles per gallon? Nah, it's smiles per gallon! When I finally got my car to the track this fall, it was going through at about 5600@104mph. This was with a 27in drag radial. I was launching around 3k. I will be installing my new subframe connectors before I head back in the spring and will get a real set of slicks and launch harder and see what happens.
Here is what I like to use to calculate things- http://www.summitracing.com/popup/calcsandtools/gear-ratio-calculator
Before you run off and buy "a real set of slicks" note that a lot of us "real slick" users are switching to Drag Radials. Switching from M/T 3055 28-10.5x15 slick to a Hoosier 275-60-15 DR lowered my 60' by about .05 with the 302. When we bolted them on the Mustang it picked up a full tenth ET in the 1/8 mile and almost 1 MPH.
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Drag radials are great - as long as you maintain good traction. If you start spinning them, they will not re-hook like a regular slick will. I tried a set on my Galaxie in 2009, same size as my regular slicks (10.5-29.5/15), and could not get them to hook no matter what I did. Of course, the car hooks great with the regular slicks (see my signature pic). Despite their advantages (less rolling resistance, typically higher MPH at the end of the track), there are drawbacks too...
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I love the 4.33 in mine. Miles per gallon? Nah, it's smiles per gallon! When I finally got my car to the track this fall, it was going through at about 5600@104mph. This was with a 27in drag radial. I was launching around 3k. I will be installing my new subframe connectors before I head back in the spring and will get a real set of slicks and launch harder and see what happens.
Here is what I like to use to calculate things- http://www.summitracing.com/popup/calcsandtools/gear-ratio-calculator
Before you run off and buy "a real set of slicks" note that a lot of us "real slick" users are switching to Drag Radials. Switching from M/T 3055 28-10.5x15 slick to a Hoosier 275-60-15 DR lowered my 60' by about .05 with the 302. When we bolted them on the Mustang it picked up a full tenth ET in the 1/8 mile and almost 1 MPH.
Is your car an auto or stick? I understand for stick cars you want a stiffer sidewall, which is part of the reason I want to try some slicks. The other part is that I need to improve on my 60', because it is picking up on the top end. I need to launch harder(maybe 4-4500rpm), and I don't believe a "softer" sidewall drag radial is going to benefit me there. I could be wrong.
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Back when I had an automatic in my Fairmont, I had a 9" with a factory N case, and 33 spline Strange spool and axles. For most of the the time with the C6, it had a 8" convertor and transbrake, which I would normally launch at WOT, 5200 RPM. With the C6, the best numbers at the track were 1.40 60 foot, and 10.55 ET@126MPH, weighing 3200 lbs.
When I switched to a Jerico 4 speed in 2000, when I took the 9" apart, I noticed that the 33 spline axles had twisted about 1-1 1/2 splines, so when I crunched the prices, it made sense to upgrade the rearend for the clutch .Although a 9" would be fine, it was cheaper to sell the existing 9" and go with a Dana 60, which we installed Strange 35 spline axles and spool,billet caps, and a T/A load bolt girdle cover. 15 years of dumping the clutch at 6000-6600 RPM, and the 35 spline axles still look perfect. So I do prefer to error on the side of "overkill" when it comes to axles. That said, my 85 Mustang , with a 331 SBFord has gone 10.3s and 4s , also with a 4 speed, dumping the clutch between 5800-6200 RPM, yet it only has a set of street/strip Moser 31 spline axles in the 8.8., that I installed in 2003 when I started running the car in Stock Eliminator.
As for wheel studs, the Mustang uses ARP 1/2" wheel studs, 3" long (5 lug), and the Fairmont used to as well, but about 10 years ago, I switched to 5/8" studs, and I like them much better.
I never broke the 1/2" studs, but after a while, the long shank lug nuts start to gall up where they go into the aluminum wheels, with the 5/8" studs, the shank of the stud has a sleeve that fills the holes in the wheels, and thus does not use shanked lug nuts, rather there are aluminum spacers and flat flanged nuts. In addition to no more galling/binding of the nuts, this setup reduces the amount of "wasted" stud hanging out past the lug nuts. I know on our drag cars, we are not always needing to change tires as fast as the Wood Brother NASCAR team, but its still nice to remove the nuts in 1/2 the time as before. Plus the larger nuts and studs will employ higher torque specs.
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Is your car an auto or stick? I understand for stick cars you want a stiffer sidewall, which is part of the reason I want to try some slicks. The other part is that I need to improve on my 60', because it is picking up on the top end. I need to launch harder(maybe 4-4500rpm), and I don't believe a "softer" sidewall drag radial is going to benefit me there. I could be wrong.
Auto, 4200 stall with 4.11s. You have it backwards - Unless the slick is made specifically with stiff sidewalls, Drag Radials have the stiffer sidewall. There are some stiff sidewall slicks - 3055S as opposed to a regular 3055. The MT web pages can sort those out. The DRs are a bit more "picky" about burnout and suspension setup. The MT DR page notes that their DRs work best with an auto, so a stiff sidewall slick might be better for your application. I'd call them as ask - they know their tires.
http://www.mickeythompsontires.com/strip.php?item=ETDrag
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M/T 3055 Slick, 13 lbs pressure - note the wrinkles
(http://raceabilene.com/misc/racepics/103109_Falcon800.jpg)
Hoosier DR, 16 lbs pressure
(http://raceabilene.com/misc/302_notes/053114_0028x1024.JPG)
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I did quite a bit of research on the tires before I bought my M/T Streets. Nearly everyone agrees that the bias ply is best for a stick car unless the suspension is in perfect tune. The re-hooking drawback with radials that Jay mentioned is an issue that many have talked about. Alot of pros are going to the radials for the top end advantage, but I think I made the best choice for my car. The biggest pain to me, with the bias ply, is having to jack the car up if it sits for a couple weeks. Not a big deal though.
And I'm definitely sticking with the 9". The last thing I want is someone telling me I've got a Chrysler rear in my car :) I've seen plenty of cars running a 9" that are pushing 1000 hp or better. I believe housing flex becomes the main problem once power and traction start climbing, which can lead to other problems.
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Hope you don't mind Doug but as long as we're talking about axles, studs and such, where do you guys find quality lug nuts.
Bought some off of Summit. They sucked. Had coating garbage in them and I gauled some threads before figuring out they had to be chased. Also not the best fit to the mags. Just don't feel like quality parts.
A taller hex would be great also.
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I got some ARP wheel studs from Summit.
Fit perfect with the nut from the Pro Star wheel.. And fair price.
There must have been something wrong with those Summit studs.
The threads are rolled and if you have to chase them then the whole theory of the rolled thread is lost.
Of course you will need to get the right ones for your setup, the right knurl, length and such.
http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/arp-100-7703/overview/
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Sorry Howie
Lugs
Fixed it to be more explanatory.
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No problem Marc, it's all related and good info. One of the local tire shops that I frequently deal with has a big bin of lug nuts, of all different styles. That's where I got the rear through-lugs for my car. The fronts use a special lug nut that is specific to the rim though. You might try stopping by one of your local tire shops and checking out what they have. Typically, it's kind of hard to go wrong on lug nuts. Those Summit jobs must have been pretty cheap.
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Those Summit jobs must have been pretty cheap.
They were Billet Specialties. Thought those would be ok. I've since found some more to try but was hoping to get some real word experience talking.
Tried my local shop they didn't have what I need.
Need a shank lug with open end.
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Hope you don't mind Doug but as long as we're talking about axles, studs and such, where do you guys find quality lug nuts.
Bought some off of Summit. They sucked. Had coating garbage in them and I gauled some threads before figuring out they had to be chased. Also not the best fit to the mags. Just don't feel like quality parts.
A taller hex would be great also.
Got my lug nuts from Summit when I ordered my wheels and tires. I went with McGuard P# MCG-64000. These are for 1/2"-20. Couldn't be happier with the quality, chrome finish and threads are excellent. Cost me $50 for all 20. I bought the Moser wheel studs(P# 8020) when I bought my Moser 31 spline axles. No particular reason, they seemed quality for a decent price.
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Falcon67: I did get my M/T drag radials to wrinkle w/ 18psi. I didn't go lower on pressure because they seemed to hook with a good burnout and decent track prep. I was fighting cold temps. that day(about 50°F, but did drive to the track and home) and one lane was lousy on prep at the line.
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Thanks.
Prolly just bought the wrong brand.
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I have seen 31 spline axles hold up to 600 HP with 35" tires and a stick. Don't fix it if it ain't broke.
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I have seen 31 spline axles hold up to 600 HP with 35" tires and a stick. Don't fix it if it ain't broke.
I concur.
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Sounds right Nightmist66. Depending on the track composition (ours is concrete) 50F can be borderline for any hook. VHT stops working around those temps. The way I set pressure is to pick a setting, make a run, then put my face right on the tire with a flashlight and look at the pattern. I shoot for a fairly even wave pattern across the tire face. Adjust pressure as needed to get that.