FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: ChiefDanGeorge on November 21, 2015, 04:50:05 PM
-
I'm still in the parts research and gathering phase of my build (http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=3286.0) and I am starting to look at original heads. I'm trying to keep a budget and I'm not doing a hi-power build so I think aluminum heads are overkill for me. I've been using Barry's book reading the Cylinder Heads chapter. It looks like the C6AE-R ones probably would be what I search for.
Does this sound like a good choice? Are there other series heads that might be a good choice?
Thanks,
Dan
-
It's always a nice thought to aim for a low-budget build, but it seldom turns out that way. Using (reusing) cast iron heads seems like a cheaper route to take, but unless you have a primo set of heads laying around, I would call your local machinist and ask what he would charge to 1. Pressure test/magnaflux 2. Mill deck surfaces 3. Do a valve job 4. Replace guides 5. Install seats 6. Price for valves
When you start adding up the cost of finding a set of cores, making sure they're good, buying valves, paying for machine work, etc., you'd probably be equal to or over the price of a new set of Edelbrocks/BBM's/Survival heads. Even a set of Edelbrocks out of the box would most likely net better performance for equal or less money.
-
Brent, you're right. I do need to call a couple of machine shops to find the costs.
It's always a nice thought to aim for a low-budget build, but it seldom turns out that way. Using (reusing) cast iron heads seems like a cheaper route to take, but unless you have a primo set of heads laying around, I would call your local machinist and ask what he would charge to 1. Pressure test/magnaflux 2. Mill deck surfaces 3. Do a valve job 4. Replace guides 5. Install seats 6. Price for valves
When you start adding up the cost of finding a set of cores, making sure they're good, buying valves, paying for machine work, etc., you'd probably be equal to or over the price of a new set of Edelbrocks/BBM's/Survival heads. Even a set of Edelbrocks out of the box would most likely net better performance for equal or less money.
-
And it is a LOT easier heaving around the aluminium ones. Used aluminium intakes come up surprisingly often. I missed on a few good ones before my buddy turned up with a Street Dominator. Cost me a beer. Saw a few less than valuable ones too. Many thanks to Jay for helping me avoid a few poor choices.
-
I have not used a local man who charges $450 but I do know a shop who does them right for $800 as Brent listed.
-
by the time you have a set of old heads refurbished you'll be close to aluminum price providing they do a good job on the iron , like mentioned you can probably get a set of used Edelbrock's fairly cheap if you look around or catch someone up-grading to Survival or BBM
-
Do you have a set of heads now?
FE heads in general are pretty tough and even though most are in there
40's and 50's you can find a good set of irons ready to go for a reasonable price.
Since this is a budget build and for powering a land yacht a standard set of
irons will do nicely. C8's or D2's
A new set of Ed's are close to 2 large, it's not going to cost that to find or
have a set done up for you.
It can easily turn into a money pit if you want. :P
-
No, I don't have a set of heads now.
Do you have a set of heads now?
FE heads in general are pretty tough and even though most are in there
40's and 50's you can find a good set of irons ready to go for a reasonable price.
Since this is a budget build and for powering a land yacht a standard set of
irons will do nicely. C8's or D2's
A new set of Ed's are close to 2 large, it's not going to cost that to find or
have a set done up for you.
It can easily turn into a money pit if you want. :P
-
I found a set of D2TE-AAs that have had the machining done on them. According to the ad:
"They have been burned, blasted, and mangafluxed. All bolt threads that needed repair have been repaired with Time-Serts. Exhaust manifold side has been surfaced for trueness. Head gasket deck has been surfaced as well. They have received a 3-angle valve job. I have new SBI stock replacement valves to go with them."
Asking price is $350.
-
Yup, that's what I'm talking about.
Pretty sure Ross "Bad427Stang" He runs a set on his small stroker with some modest rubbing and says they work great.
I ran a set of D2's on a 390 years back and for the mild build they were good runners.
-
I do run a set of D2TE-AAs on my 445 truck, and I do like them, but they do have some money in them. Full porting to get to just under 280 cfm, aftermarket CJ valves with undercut stems, new guides, etc
Unfortunately they only flow about 218 cfm as cast, so not much to write home about other than the ability to run a GT or truck header
I will say though, that truck hauls the mail, just ask the NP435 that is going to be on the floor in pieces by noon tomorrow ;)
-
I'll add that even if you get fair-good shop prices, be sure to check on the quality of their work by asking questions and seeing some examples.
Finding a good shop is becoming increasingly hard even here in our huge Chicago, IL metro area. I asked my neighbor who is the #1 seniority mechanic at our biggest Car-Max store why this is so. His answer should have been obvious. In today's world most modern cars get brand new heads as the turn-around time and cost of refurbishing old heads can't compare to the slap-them-on mindset of most repair and dealership shops. With the big drop in volume, pretty much only gearheads like us drag in old heads for re-work and as such, many head shops in particular have closed. That and the need for some fancy (read: expensive) machinery has older machinists turning away from said work.
-
No doubt I'll have to check up on quality for sure. There's a really good exhaust shop here I am going to go and talk with to see if they have any machine shop recommendations.
-
That's a good price on finished heads (tho' I might have my own guy take a peek at them).
I have a fair bit more into my D2s in labor and parts (sorry I haven't had the time to find the sheets yet).
-
No worries, it seems like quite a few sets of heads are in craigslist near me lately. Found another ad for a set of C8AE for sale.
That's a good price on finished heads (tho' I might have my own guy take a peek at them).
I have a fair bit more into my D2s in labor and parts (sorry I haven't had the time to find the sheets yet).
-
I will bring this to your attention now.
The late model heads ie: C7, C8 and D2 have a lower exhaust port than
the earlier heads. It can be an issue with some header fits so that is something to keep in mined.
C7 heads suck so I don't really consider them good for anything really.
-
That's going to be the thing with older iron units. If you can find a decent pair ready to use or in need of little work, then you can save some money. If you are starting from scratch and have some good level of performance in mind, modern aluminum head assemblies are going to be way more cost effective. I was going to spend close to $1200 on basic performance prep to run a set of 351C-4V iron heads. That wasn't counting the other mods in the plan - just some basic machine work, decking, etc. I already have valves. For $1600 I bought a set of aluminum heads that do every thing the iron heads could do and more, without all the extra work. For engines like the SBF, it pretty much makes no sense to use any old iron head unless it's a total resto project.
I'm an Indian, all right; but here in the nation they call us the "civilized tribe". They call us "civilized" because we're easy to sneak up on. White men have been sneaking up on us for years.
-
I will bring this to your attention now.
The late model heads ie: C7, C8 and D2 have a lower exhaust port than
the earlier heads. It can be an issue with some header fits so that is something to keep in mined.
C7 heads suck so I don't really consider them good for anything really.
This is a serious point. I built my D2s because I already owned ceramic coated truck headers with the low port. If I hadn't had them, I would have likely gone Edelbrock
Need to make sure you match the head to the header or the header to the head
-
No headers yet. It's so tight on the passenger sides shock tower I am worried about finding a set that will fit in there.
-
Use s set of factory castiron shorty
Headers they fit last a lifetime dont
Leak and are reprodused IF you dont
Find a used set
-
Who reproduces the shorty cast iron headers? I've talked to this (http://fordpowertrain.com/FPAindex/headers2.htm) guy and he says his shorty header will fit.
-
I dont remember but i have seen
Them on eBay
I think there was a pair in the
Classified on this forum a while ago
-
Doing some searching shows no one is reproducing cast iron ones anymore. Someplace called Pops was but is out of business.
Original cast iron headers are going to have to match to early heads aren't they?
-
Yes they are for the early style
Exhaust ports.
I dont know how much lower
the new port is but in My 64
Galaxie there seems to be
Plenty of space down from
The headers
The problem i can think of
Is maby the pitman arm
-
Port Locations.
The exhaust port on a later head is about 1/4" lower than the early head exhaust port.
Some pics to give you an idea of what it looks like.
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q128/ScotiaFE/Hussey.jpg) (http://s135.photobucket.com/user/ScotiaFE/media/Hussey.jpg.html)
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q128/ScotiaFE/IMGP4516.jpg) (http://s135.photobucket.com/user/ScotiaFE/media/IMGP4516.jpg.html)
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q128/ScotiaFE/IMGP4517.jpg) (http://s135.photobucket.com/user/ScotiaFE/media/IMGP4517.jpg.html)
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q128/ScotiaFE/gaskets005.jpg) (http://s135.photobucket.com/user/ScotiaFE/media/gaskets005.jpg.html)
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q128/ScotiaFE/gaskets006-1.jpg) (http://s135.photobucket.com/user/ScotiaFE/media/gaskets006-1.jpg.html)
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q128/ScotiaFE/Picture112.jpg) (http://s135.photobucket.com/user/ScotiaFE/media/Picture112.jpg.html)
-
Here's what it looks like overlapped.
With gaskets from the right company ;) SCE. ;)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/turbohunter1/Image%208_4.jpg)
-
I prefer the flat coppers to the embossed ones.
Do they make flat ones?
-
Heh heh
I was just pokin' fun atchya.
My brother and Hussey are/were direct competitors in the copper arena.
I'll text him about flats.
All that's in the catalog that I see are the embossed.
-
Hussey is not in the gasket business anymore.
-
Thought I remembered something about that, thus the "are/were".
Anyway I'll ask Ryan if there's a pn for flats that's not readily findable in the FE section and pm you Howie.
Hope all is well with you and yours.
-
Looking at the head pictures, am I correct in saying the Edlebrock heads are more towards the early iron heads with respect to the exhaust port positions?
-
Thanks for the port layout photos.
-
Looking at the head pictures, am I correct in saying the Edlebrock heads are more towards the early iron heads with respect to the exhaust port positions?
The Ed head is kind of a mix of the Cobra Jet head and the Med Riser head.
A great head for ready to use out of the box so to speak.
If they are in the budget then for sure get a set.
Price of admission is always a consideration. :)
-
Just got quote from machine shop for complete rebuild of heads and it's around $800. So with the price of the heads, the cost is tilting past half the cost of aluminum heads.
I'm wondering if those heads I saw on craigslist really were fully rebuilt being that inexpensive, although the guy I spoke to gave me the upper range.
-
When you say fully rebuilt, ask these questions:
1. Have they been cleaned either by boiling out in acid dip, or heated to burn off carbon deposits?
2. Have they been pressure tested?
3. Have they been magnafluxed for cracks?
4. Have the guides been replaced/knurled/lined/sized to the valve stems?
5. Have the spring seats been enlarged for performance springs?
6. Have the valve guides been cut for positive oil control seals?
7. Have the exhaust seats had hardened seats installed?
8. Have the heads been milled flat? How many ccs?
9. Has the exhaust flange been milled flat?
10. Has a multi-angle valve job been performed with cutters or stones?
11. Was the valve job done by machine, or by hand?
12. Were valves replaced with new valves?
13. Did the intake valves get a back cut, or did they use the 30* stock angle on intakes?
14. Did they install new valve springs for the camshaft you plan to use?
15. Were new keepers and locks used?
16. What is the installed spring seat pressure?
17. What is the coil bind distance?
18. What is the over the nose spring pressure?
19. What type valve stem seal was used?
20. Were the valve guides lubed on assembly?
21. What is the intake valve stem clearance?
22. What is the exhaust valve stem clearance?
There may be more things some of the folks can think of for a used head, but these are some that I would ask before putting any money down on a used pair of 50 year old heads. Joe-JDC
-
Always a tough one. More power. :P
You really have to look long term.
What is the goal for the car?
A well built iron head 390 with a good all around gear set and good brakes
will go a long ways to making for a good solid ride capable of long distance runs.
With no problems.
And keep the budget in check, with in reason. just something to keep in mined.
-
When you say fully rebuilt, ask these questions:
1. Have they been cleaned either by boiling out in acid dip, or heated to burn off carbon deposits?
2. Have they been pressure tested?
3. Have they been magnafluxed for cracks?
4. Have the guides been replaced/knurled/lined/sized to the valve stems?
5. Have the spring seats been enlarged for performance springs?
6. Have the valve guides been cut for positive oil control seals?
7. Have the exhaust seats had hardened seats installed?
8. Have the heads been milled flat? How many ccs?
9. Has the exhaust flange been milled flat?
10. Has a multi-angle valve job been performed with cutters or stones?
11. Was the valve job done by machine, or by hand?
12. Were valves replaced with new valves?
13. Did the intake valves get a back cut, or did they use the 30* stock angle on intakes?
14. Did they install new valve springs for the camshaft you plan to use?
15. Were new keepers and locks used?
16. What is the installed spring seat pressure?
17. What is the coil bind distance?
18. What is the over the nose spring pressure?
19. What type valve stem seal was used?
20. Were the valve guides lubed on assembly?
21. What is the intake valve stem clearance?
22. What is the exhaust valve stem clearance?
There may be more things some of the folks can think of for a used head, but these are some that I would ask before putting any money down on a used pair of 50 year old heads. Joe-JDC
I think most of us know that everything listed here is what you expect from a quality job, but when it's layed out like that, it really puts into perspective the amount of work that goes into a set of heads (at least a GOOD set of heads). I'd hate to see an entire engine laid out in that format :o
-
My goal is an around town and highway car. Right now, if I want to pass someone, I need alot of clear road on a 2 lane. I want new build to light the tires if needed and be able to get out of its own way when I have to get down the road.
I'd love to try and do one of the Hot Rod Power Tours. I am not building a drag wagon.
That's why I've been looking for a good set of iron heads.
Always a tough one. More power. :P
You really have to look long term.
What is the goal for the car?
A well built iron head 390 with a good all around gear set and good brakes
will go a long ways to making for a good solid ride capable of long distance runs.
With no problems.
And keep the budget in check, with in reason. just something to keep in mined.
-
Chief,
If you are needing to go the ultra cheap route, I've got a set of dirty old D2 heads I'll give ya, if you ever find yourself in southern Georgia. I just don't feel like mailing them to anyone (because I'm lazy)
My personal input? I'd buy Edelbrocks, bolt them on out of the box, and forgo the annoyance of having heads rebuilt that are self limiting by their very design. At least with the Edelbrocks, if you ever decided to make a more potent engine, you are some port work and a valve job away from having that covered.
-
Drew,
Thanks for the offer. Guy in NC has a set of C6AEs I can get for $250. I am mulling over the cost of machining versus buying the edlebroks(plus the consensus is stop being cheap buy edlebroks).
-
Having said all the above about iron heads, if you have a set of heads already, just get them rebuilt. With a fresh build, competent machine work, and that HP intake, you should be able to chirp the tires and pass just about anywhere you wanted to with a 390 + .030 and headers/cast headers with good dual exhaust system, and good ignition system. You will be surprised how well even a fresh 352 would run with 9.5-9.7 compression ratio, 4V, headers, 600 holley, electronic ignition, and dual exhausts. That Wagon will never be as nimble as a mustang or fairlane, but it can be a pleasure to drive on trips with more than adequate power with either engine. Joe-JDC
-
I decided to go with the Edlebrocks. After realizing Amazon sold them and I've got Amazon Prime, the 12 month interest free financing made the decision for me.
Next up, cam and valve train choices!
-
I think that's a good call!
-
One thing to consider is a new set comes ready to roll, a used set you will have to do valve seats. By the time you do all the work on the iron heads you could have bought a new set. I would do a set of Barry's Felony heads, last time I looked they were the most bang for the buck.