FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => Non-FE Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Royce on October 13, 2015, 12:48:23 PM
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I thought folks might be interested in the story on my effort start to finish.. As a first time competitor I learned a lot and would be smarter on my next effort , but it sure was fun. Thanks to those who helped me and were members of my Team.. J.C. thrashed on 3 sets of headers. Joe Craine worked over 1 pair of heads and 5 manifolds. plus both of them were a big help preparing and running the engine at Ohio. My 3rd team member was Rick Martin and he played the role of Lincoln historian to those who stopped by and had never even heard of a Lincoln Y block.
If I had not had a running engine that I was confident in, I could never have put together the effort to get an engine to the Engine Masters. What Ted Eaton did in a compressed time frame is amazing..
The idea was to pull the engine from my drag car and massage it a little bit and run it at EM. I was figuring maybe a couple weeks work and that would be it.It did not turn out that way LOL..I run E-85 in my drag car and the contest has a spec fuel so I needed a different carb. I run an automatic and the contest required an SFI certified flywheel so I had to lean on John to get his supplier to custom make one for me. With a 3000 to 6000 rpm range I was not sure if a single plane intake or a dual plane would score better so I ordered a couple to try.. I do not have any dyno headers that would match that rpm range so i had Yestertech modify some Schoenfeld headers to fit the Lincoln. We decided that Tri Y headers would likely make more low end torque so Jerry whipped up a set of those too. I had always wanted to try a tunnel ram and EFI on this engine.. On my shelf I had the lower half of an EFI tunnel ram intake that Mercury Marine used on one of their scrub based boat engines. I fabricated an upper plenum and rigged up a fuel rail with 42 lb injectors, 2 65mm throttle bodies all controlled by a FAST EZ EFI port injection system. I sent 2 intakes and the tunnel ram to Joe Craine for porting and flow testing. When i had finally collected all the parts I needed I ran my first dyno test in July.. We tested a single plane and a dual plane intake 2 different headers and 4 different carbs. Learnings from the first dyno session were that a 750 carb was all it wanted, and that Jerry's Holley 750 HP Ultra was the best of the 750 carbs we had. The Schoenfeld headers were better than the Tri Y's and the single plane and dual plane intakes were almost identical in score.. Peak power occurs at 6300 and peak torque at 4600 so the cam is not ideal. After thinking about results for a while I decided the only thing that was really nailed down was the carburetor. Everything else was still a question.. On intakes it seems what the engine wanted was a bigger dual plane intake for more top end or a single plane that has smaller runners to make more low end torque. I had confirmed that the cam is really to big for the RPM range I was working with so it decided on the next test to open the lash and advance it 4 degrees to pick up the low end torque. I purchased 2 more intakes, A Performer RPM Air Gap and a Holley Strip Dominator. My thinking was that if the RPM Air Gap could be made to flow a little better it could help the top end score.. The Strip Dominator has a smaller plenum and runners so I surmised it might make a bit more low end torque I sent these 2 intakes off to Joe Craine for tweaking and flow balancing. Also by this time I had completed fabrication on the EFI tunnel ram, so that needed to be tested as well. I was back on the dyno just before labor day. The EFI intake was a disappointment. It was down on Performance across the board. It was short on low end torque and also high end horsepower , so after tuning it the best we could with no better results it was set aside. The testing on the single plane Holley and the Air Gap Edelbrock produced scores that were very close to one another, so there was no clear choice on manifolds. Advancing the cam moved torque peak 300 rpm lower which I thought would improve the score, but it did not. Gains in low end torque were offset by equal loss of power at the higher range, with the net gain or loss being 0..Loosening the lash did help and i picked up about 20 points of score... I ran into a couple mechanical issues in this session as well, water in the oil, and the cam was walking in the block enough to change the timing 20 degrees at idle. So back to the shop to fix the problems and settle on a final combination to run at EMC.The mechanical issues were easily solved and after some thought I settled on the dual plane Air Gap intake. I also could not help thinking I could find a better header to make more torque, so I had Yestertech make 1 more set with very long primaries and a 3 inch instead of 3.5 inch collector. Last week in Sept I am on the dyno again this time trying to find the best spacer combination dial in the carb for the final time and test the long tube headers. It turns out the long tube headers did not make any more torque than the set I started with.. The engine turned out not to be real sensitive to jetting so we picked a middle of the road carb tune.. The spacer combo that we ended up choosing was a semi open 1 inch spacer shaped like a clover leaf, with a 1/4 open spacer underneath it. We could have tested different combos for days but at some point I had to settle on something so i went ahead and locked in the combination.. I made well over 100 dyno pulls tried 4 carbs 5 manifolds 3 sets of headers many spacers, cam timing and valve lash.. In the end I was able to pick up about 90 points and make a score of 2183. HRM covered the actual dyno run pretty well so I will not repeat that.. I was happy it was drama free and no surprises we made 8 pulls in 35 min and the engine never missed a beat
Here is what my combination looks like:
1957 mercury 368 block and heads.
Block bored ..060 JE pistons with 1/16/1/6 3/16 rings 10cc dome 12:1 compression
Forged crank with offset ground rod journal to 2.2 for a 3.7 stroke
TFS SFI Damper. Mummert billet SFI steel flywheel
Scat 7.1 inch BBC rod
SCE copper head gasket with O Ring
Heads max ported by Joe.D.Craine 2.05 intake 1.65 ex. Flow 255/195 @.600
Edelbrock SBC Performer RPM Air Gap intake ported by Joe.D.Craine
Holley 750 HP Ultra carb
Solid roller cam by Mike Jones Jones Cam designs 252/252 .625 lift
Lunati solid roller lifters
Smith bros 5/16 chrome moly push rods
Harland Sharp 1.6 aluminum roller rockers
PAC beehive valve springs
ARP main studs and Head studs
Stock timing set.. 57 type distributor with locked timing at 34 degrees
Pertronix Ignitor firing a MSD 6 with a Blaster coil.
NGK WR5 plugs 7 quarts Amzoil 10/30 K&N oil filter Stock truck oil pan with windage tray stock oil pump
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Adventuress for sure Royce and the old engines were fun to read as all you guys did well.Are the (people) at Yestertech any friendlier than I've seen in the past?
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I must say I thoroughly enjoyed being on Royce's team, and Jerry was a pleasure to talk with the whole week. Royce nearly had a tragedy on the way to the contest, and it speaks well of him to concentrate enough to get the job done in style. We all learned a lot from the experience, and can become better at trouble shooting in the future. Joe-JDC
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It was great to see you guys, and the Turnpike Cruiser was really, really cool! I think the "Vintage" class was my favorite to watch and see the entries - they were really unique and creative.
Engine Masters sure tends to school us on giving the engine "what it wants" instead of "what we want". Darn things cannot read the magazine articles, and you quickly discover that many accepted theories do not play out in the real world.
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Thanks for your generosity and taking the time to share that with us.
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Royce, congrats on completing engine masters! Do you have a link to online coverage? Put another shrimp on the barbie mate!
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Royce---
You often bring a smile to my face and this summary of your experiences is certainly one of those times. I'll look forward to your adventures in the future!
KS
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Joel here is the link: http://www.hotrod.com/events/1510-need-to-catch-up-on-engine-masters-challenge-action-we-have-your-solution/ (http://www.hotrod.com/events/1510-need-to-catch-up-on-engine-masters-challenge-action-we-have-your-solution/)
Find me a couple hundred more EMC points and i will buy you lifetime all you can eat shrimp at Long John Silver's
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I received my April 2016 copy of Hot Rod magazine in the mail today and there, right on the cover, is a Y-Block! Kaase's entry. And inside even more Y-Block pictures & coverage including Ted Eaton's entry. Also a full page of Royce B's Lincoln Y. And, if that isn't enough...a full page with the headline "Shocking! Ancient Ford Engine smashed ( Scrub ) LS3 torque numbers" Telling us what the Y-Block faithful have know for decades. I immediately had to call our local Y-Block Guru J.C. and tell him to start spreading the word. Hopefully this becomes Hot Rods highest selling issue of the year! J.C. and I discussed that not only is this probably the only time a Y-Block has been on the cover of Hot Rod in close to 60 years, but also more coverage inside than nearly the last 60 years as well. Congrats again to Royce & Ted and all their crew.
(http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff437/red0wl/Hot%20Rod%20April%20%202016%20Y%20Block%20rs.jpg) (http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/red0wl/media/Hot%20Rod%20April%20%202016%20Y%20Block%20rs.jpg.html)
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Awesome.
Was wondering why my little truck was feelin' frisky today.
Thanks Kevin.
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Need an EMC forum next to the drag week forums here. good info!
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I'm really glad I went this year, as a spectator. I took a bunch of pictures of Kaase's engine during and after tear down. He was super nice and took the time to talk to me about it for several minutes, despite me being a nobody. I'm lucky and live only 20 minutes from where it's held. Plus they had free pizza! ;D
Royce was very nice also, and I got to meet JoeDC without even knowing it was him. Of course he probably didn't know it was me either..lol. I was kind of disappointed that I was the only one to show up in a muscle car, or any kind of performance car for that matter. I figured there would at least be a few.
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Wow, a Ford on the cover of Hot Rod! Will wonders never cease! Those LS Chevy guys will want a refund....Hah!
Nice showing guys.
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That is really, really cool. The only downside is that now I'll have to hear about this from the local Y-block guru for at least the next 4 years LOL!
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Wow I did not expect to see that in HR so soon.. Yes Jay, get ready for the end zone dance, the local Y block promoter will be insufferable. I may drop a few references from time to time as well lol... How long can it be till someone drops a Y block in a Mustang
Doug it was great that you showed up and supported the Ford guys. We sure had fun and Fords did well in every class they were allowed to enter... Everyone who meets Jon Kaase for the first time says the same thing about how approachable he is and how he will answer any question you pose to him. I was understandably nervous in the prep room when we first arrived. Being a first timer i did not know the drill so to speak.. Jon came over right away and welcomed me and thanked me for bringing an engine and asked about my build with genuine interest.. He mentioned he almost decided to build a Lincoln till the rules were changed to allow aftermarket heads, so he went with the Ford. Several times he came over after I finished my dyno session to say how good it sounded and to ask about future plans. I am sure glad he is a Ford guy
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Love that inside info Royce.
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Royce, you're a genius! What an idea!
Dropping a Y-block in a.....wait for it.....
Chevy Camaro! Imagine the questions, chagrin and defeated looks!
Priceless I say, priceless.
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Not in a Mustang but i have a Y- block
In a Chrysler-24 hotrod
Thought about a Hemi first but decided
to use a real engine ;D ;D
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Bob Make that a numbers matching Camero lol
I can envision a Y block renaissance. All we need is a guy with a machining center and a head full of cool ideas... Jay????
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Maybe a Y-blocked street rod to show off the engine?
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A Y block on the cover.
End times are upon us...
Very cool indeed and another round of congrats are in order!
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the ultimate sin? a Y in a 55 chev gasser. Y oh Y ?
nice job!
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Not in a Mustang but i have a Y- block
In a Chrysler-24 hotrod
Thought about a Hemi first but decided
to use a real engine ;D ;D
Heo, I'm certainly not trying to argue against that Y-block in there, but an early hemi would have been pretty darned cool also!
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Yes a Hemi is cool but the Y keeps the
water inside the block and out of the oil ;D
Sorry Joel i had to ;)
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LMAO!! ;D ;D ;D
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the ultimate sin? a Y in a 55 chev gasser. Y oh Y ?
nice job!
Its been done...If you want to consider a 56 Chevy close enough. And this holy alliance was done back in the late 60s no less. Guess nothing is new.
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I obviously think of Barry R who faithfully brings a FE every year with I presume no cash awarded to make his trip home any easier. It just makes me wonder, I figure (WAG) that the hours Jon spends designing his motors, the obviously pricey/custom parts, assembly and dyno hours have got to have a value of $50,000-$100,000 and maybe even more if one were to contract for such a motor from a serious engine builder. Yet the check presented to Jon shows only $12,000
How much money do the sponsors & mfgs typically pay out to winners using there products?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaOhdZSPd1M&feature=player_embedded
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You have to remember Jon has the ability to buy parts at substantially less than you or I can buy them. His crankshaft is billet, and he said it was done quickly for him, and the cost he quoted to me was about a 25% less than I can buy the same part for. He buys at much less than jobber, has his own shop, and the advertising he gets more than pays for the money spent on a particular engine. Those carburetors and intake manifold were $3000, and he had the owner of that shop with him at the EMC to make any dyno changes needed as they made their pulls. Of course the advertisements and magazine pictures assure folks will look up those carburetors for their builds. He won $12K, got sponsor money, and has the engine for sale. He will more than make his money back if the engine sells. He said he did not have a lot of dyno time on that engine before the competition. Joe-JDC
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BB since most us mere mortals run our cars on a broken beer bottle budget.
And the going rate for a full page Ad in a National rag is 30 to 50k per issue
I'd say good use of ad dollars for anyone who can pony up and make the show.
To win it is an excellent return of investment.
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I chatted with Jon and asked him the question on how much EMC had helped his business over the years.. He said he was well know within the racer community, but EMC put him on the map as far as the enthusiast public.. I would say he has had an enormous ROI over the years
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(Return On Investment) for those in Peoria.