FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: drdano on February 20, 2012, 09:04:42 PM
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I spent the afternoon checking out the new roller cam for my 428. I have a Cloyes roller timing set with 3108a and 3108b gears. With the gears in the "straight up" position, the ICL on the cam dials in at 108. Spec on the card says 104. At this point I'm stoked because I know this timing set is supposed to go +4 and -4. I swap the crank gear into the advance position, recheck the ICL and now we're at 100? Double checked everything again with the same result. Anyone had any issues with Cloyes gears like this being so far off? I suppose biting the bullet and getting a 9 way adjustable set may be in order, anyone used them before and have a brand to recommend now that my confidence in Cloyes is a tad shaken?
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Are you sure you didn't start at the -4 position and then go to the +4? I've had quite a few of the Cloyes chains, and I've never seen one that far off. Of course, anything is possible. If it is really that far off, I'd return it for a different set if possible.
I hate it when stuff like that happens...
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I thought the same thing, so I tried it in the retard keyway and it moved the ICL to 117.5 degrees, which definitely retarded the cam, but way too far again. That would be +9.5 from the 0 keyway. Looking at the keyway slots closer this evening, I can visibly see both the advance and retard keyways look as though they are right in the middle between teeth on the sprocket. The teeth would be 15 degrees apart, so that would put the keyways roughly 7.5 degrees apart on either side of zero. Everything on this engine has been a battle, I'm sure this wont be the last. I'll talk to Cloyes tomorrow.
Have you used any of the 9-keyway sets out there? I think that may be the magic bullet hopefully.
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I've had good luck with the Rollmaster sets. They use the good Iwis chain; suggest you give Doug at Precision Oil Pumps a call, because he usually has those in stock.
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I used a Cloyes True Roller, 9-3108 with no problems. I happened to have the engine apart a few hundred miles later and it had not stretched as much as some do.
I think you just got a bad set, but I would get another of the same.
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I've had good luck with the Rollmaster sets. They use the good Iwis chain; suggest you give Doug at Precision Oil Pumps a call, because he usually has those in stock.
That sounds like a good idea, I need to talk to him about a rocker stand kit anyway.
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If you can't return the timing set and just want a 9 position crank gear, a cheap way is to order the Ford Racing timing set. It's made by Cloyes (has the same numbers on the gears) and comes with the 9 position gear. Costs only around $65. That's what I did when I needed that crank gear.
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Yep
Ford Racing sets used here now.
The 9 keyways is a convenience item
The better than Cloyes price for a Cloyes part is the best deal going
Never had your problem with a Cloyes item, I've had some issues with Rollmaster stuff and tend to steer away from them.
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Resolved my initial issue of the key ways being cut wrong with a new billet race cloyes timing set that finally arrived today. The +4 advance keyway sets the cam right at 104 where it should be. Comparing the keyways, the prior one was definitely 4 or more degrees off.
However, I'm now back to where I was 4-5 timing chains ago and have another damn sloppy chain with 1/2" of deflection in it. >:( I measured as best I could the cam to crank centerline distance and I get 5.043, which is darn close to the 5.044 that I read is the OEM distance thinking that could be the reason for this string of bad luck with chains. Would a -.005 or -0.010 timing set do anything for me in terms of tightening up the chain? I'm really ready to walk away from Cloyes altogether, as this makes nearly a half dozen timing sets that are messed up in one way or another. Ridiculous. ???
I have serious doubts about the Ford Racing units if they are made by Cloyes. Do they install tight and are the key ways correct?
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Resolved my initial issue of the key ways being cut wrong with a new billet race cloyes timing set that finally arrived today. The +4 advance keyway sets the cam right at 104 where it should be. Comparing the keyways, the prior one was definitely 4 or more degrees off.
However, I'm now back to where I was 4-5 timing chains ago and have another damn sloppy chain with 1/2" of deflection in it. >:( I measured as best I could the cam to crank centerline distance and I get 5.043, which is darn close to the 5.044 that I read is the OEM distance thinking that could be the reason for this string of bad luck with chains. Would a -.005 or -0.010 timing set do anything for me in terms of tightening up the chain? I'm really ready to walk away from Cloyes altogether, as this makes nearly a half dozen timing sets that are messed up in one way or another. Ridiculous. ???
I have serious doubts about the Ford Racing units if they are made by Cloyes. Do they install tight and are the key ways correct?
Maybe meaningless but I have used the Ford timing chain sets many times on other engines and the Cloyes only on my FE only once. The Cloyes was so tight to get on that I thought at first it would not fit. The Ford sets fit tight, but not nearly as tight as the FE Cloyes set. It's entirely possible that my FE engine was cam to crank distance farther apart.
After driving the car a few hundred miles it was still tighter than any Ford Motorsports timing chain set (on a different engine type) than I have ever had. The Ford sets are a bit looser to begin with and stretch a bit more after a few hundred miles. Again not apples to apples but take what you can from it. And that is not to say the Ford set is not tight, in my opinion it was very tight, it's just that the Cloyes was super tight.
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Yes, I think totally dumping Cloyes entirely is a good move at this point considering all the issues you've had. The Ford 9-keyway crank gear is a great piece and makes timing changes a snap. Don't know who makes the Ford timing sets and if it is Cloyes, yikes!
Maybe Barry or Jay can shed some light on who makes them and, as you asked, are they tight and are the keyways cut in the right place. I'm still a tad amazed at all your troubles as most of the sets I've used over time (lots of sources for Fords, Chevys, some Chryslers ) were pretty much install, adjust cam if needed and.....forget!
Resolved my initial issue of the key ways being cut wrong with a new billet race cloyes timing set that finally arrived today. The +4 advance keyway sets the cam right at 104 where it should be. Comparing the keyways, the prior one was definitely 4 or more degrees off.
However, I'm now back to where I was 4-5 timing chains ago and have another damn sloppy chain with 1/2" of deflection in it. >:( I measured as best I could the cam to crank centerline distance and I get 5.043, which is darn close to the 5.044 that I read is the OEM distance thinking that could be the reason for this string of bad luck with chains. Would a -.005 or -0.010 timing set do anything for me in terms of tightening up the chain? I'm really ready to walk away from Cloyes altogether, as this makes nearly a half dozen timing sets that are messed up in one way or another. Ridiculous. ???
I have serious doubts about the Ford Racing units if they are made by Cloyes. Do they install tight and are the key ways correct?
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Cloyes makes the Ford sets....
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Today I got my Ford Racing M-6268-A390 timing chain delivered. The markings and manufacture are very different from the previous Cloyes chains I've dealt with, they really look nothing alike. It does look identical to the photo on FR website though:
(http://www.1fordracing.com/images/part/250x250/M-6268-A390.jpg)
Installed it does fit tighter than the last one, but it does have some play in it. I measure just under 1/4" of total deflection in the chain. The keyways look correct and degreeing the cam proved the +4 keyway was right on the money and set the ICL of my cam right at 104 as needed. After checking the ECL and crunching the numbers the LSA came up right at 110 as it should be. Not sure if I should call it quits on the great timing chain fiasco or keep trying to find something that fits more snug than this.
The local NAPA parts store carries reboxed +.005 and +.010 Cloyes Tru-roller chains (at a $60 markup over MSRP of Cloyes I might add..). I explained the problems I've been having to the NAPA clerk and asked if an installed set was out of spec at over 1/2" deflection if the set could be returned as it would be defective and was given a very stern, but polite, "absolutely not." :-\
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At only 1/4" deflection I think I'd run the new one. Maybe if you kept working on it you'd be able to get one to fit tighter, but that amount of deflection is nothing to worry about in my opinion.
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X2 on the 1/4 inch deflection not being a problem.