FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: fekbmax on September 21, 2015, 08:39:10 AM
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Anyone still painting the inside of there blocks with GLYPTAL ?
just a curious question. Some old schoolers swear by it. Others say its a waist of time. Like to know what some of the pro engine builders here think. I got a can on the shelf.. should I use it ? Id be worried about adhesion no matter how well its prepped and cleaned. Never used it before except in actual electric motor housing for the blowers in the cooling tower.
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No pro builder here but....
In the day, many racers did use Glyptal, as I did, and so did a lot of race engine shops. But, if the theory was to smooth the surfaces of cast iron for the faster return of oil to the pan.....why not merely smooth the valley and other unmachined areas with a cartridge roll, stone or other grinding tool? Btw, most aluminum parts are so smooth the painting likely does nothing. High mileage intended street engines should also skip the paint job as they are more prone to stripping, over time, unlike a low running time race engine.
I'd say skip it 100%, smooth all areas one can reach, especially remove any casting flask and sharp edges, on FE's be sure to enlarge the head drainback holes and call it a day.
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What about ceramic coatings like jet hot? I could see a benefit in coating the valley to try and keep heat away from the intake.
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I don't (and won't) paint/coat anything inside.....
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What about ceramic coatings like jet hot? I could see a benefit in coating the valley to try and keep heat away from the intake.
I believe a sheet metal shield, used by many automakers on production engines to do just that, would be more beneficial, and easily much cheaper. Btw, here's the same BBC (sorry!) oil shield we ran long ago; as one can see it does nothing to retain lifter bodies nor is it bolted in, merely snapped in. Its purpose was solely to prevent oil from hitting the bottom of the intake manifold, keep it cooler and preventing the coking of oil into that crusty mass one sees sometimes inside an engine.
http://paceperformance.com/images/F29408136.jpg
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Smoothed out the valley on my last one with a grinding wheel. Occasional 6,000 shifts and occasional 100 mph+ with 4:10 axle and 6 qts of oil the oil gauge never stumbled.
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No interior paint here at all.
A risk taken with no reward...
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Thanks, I had completely forgotten about the shield. What is the opinion then about coating the whole intake? Should you avoid coating the bottom? Ceramic coatings have been beneficial on exhaust headers.
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The intakes I've seen ceramic coated had them done to change the color (say purple or red to match the exterior of the car) and/or to keep fuel from staining the somewhat surface-porous aluminum casting. I don't think most if any do so for hp gains, minimal that they'd likely be. Cost/benefit, as stated by our pro builders here, comes into play.
Besides, an intake must have some level of heat to maximize fuel distribution especially in carb'ed applications. Even iced-down intakes, done just before a drag-race, do retain a lot of heat, at least compared to ambient temps.
Would be interesting to know if sprint and NASCAR spec. engines, due to heating over a long race, use said technology on intakes and valleys....I have no idea.
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I could see an inconel heat shield being useful but high temp ceramic coatings would be smart to keep heat soak to a minimum. Yes, most often you see people painting the intake for aesthetic reasons. But if you wanted to go with a protective coating, instead of just chroming it, you could ceramic coat it to help. You face heat soak more often than lack of heat in the IAT, especially in a pleasure vehicle that normally isn't driven in the cold. In warm weather, you're trying to get the IAT as low as possible. So the bigger issue is heat soak.
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I like to use Glyptal on many things. Inside the engine I like to use it to seal the cast iron surface so no tiny particles come loose, keep it from rusting, heat isolation on intake, and sheds oil too. Here's a few snaps of our windsor (sorry) project. Didn't have time or energy to get all the small areas around bottom cam tunnel and main webbing, etc.
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/jaredaebly/Mobile%20Uploads/1_zpsloey350w.jpg) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1_zpsloey350w.jpg.html)
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/jaredaebly/Mobile%20Uploads/2_zpsolluyn76.jpg) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2_zpsolluyn76.jpg.html)
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/jaredaebly/Mobile%20Uploads/3_zpskexjgb6x.jpg) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media/Mobile%20Uploads/3_zpskexjgb6x.jpg.html)
Inside the heads too
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a232/jaredaebly/4_zpsdsovyzot.jpg) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/jaredaebly/media/4_zpsdsovyzot.jpg.html)
An imprtant note if using this is make sure you bake it somehow to make the most of it. I just use a heat lamp for several hours. I also painted the inside of my third member and housing while I had it apart.
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Who here knows from personal account of glyptal flaking off? I know paint can flake, hell just about any surface can flake too, even smoothed surfaces.
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n/m
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"Like to know what some of the pro engine builders here think."
Two pro engine builders said no dice.....are we beating a dead horse now.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thread/1390228684/Red+Primer+on+Inside+of+Engine
Brent has seen it stripped (see his old post) and so have I.
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I painted the inside of my 428 CJ back in 1981 when I freshened the shortblock with a .030 overbore, and it still looks like it did then. I just had the block freshened up with a torque plate hone, and will re-assemble everything with new rings, bearings, gaskets, etc. Block prep and cleanliness before application are key to longevity of the glyptol. Joe-JDC
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I've been doing a lot of research on this and there are a few things worth mentioning...
1. Prep has to be perfect and it's best to bake it to insure proper curing.
2. Is useful if there are porosity issues with a casting. There are however many paint options to deal with porosity.
3. Should it flake off as some do claim to have seen, it can become a big problem. Is it worth the risk?
4. If you want to smooth the engine's interior surfaces to help oil flow, you an grind / sand the surfaces smooth.
5. One person mentioned using dry graphite instead to help speed up oil flow. If the dry graphite flakes off, it is a dry lubricant anyways so chances of it blocking oil flow is very small.
The main thing I took away from all my reading was that a really well prepped block before assembly doesn't really need the added time and money spent on painting the insides with glyptal.
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Two pro engine builders said no dice.....are we beating a dead horse now.
I totally respect the great engine builders here with out a doubt. I value any and all information that can be gathered from anyone though. There's no doubt that there would be different experiences with any product and personally I like hearing from both sides. There's never to much info either pro or con, its up to the individual as to what they do with it. As far as the comment above goes, id be willing to bet that at least two other pro engine builders would say they use it regularly. .
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I have a friend who glyptals all the blocks and heads he does .Just a hobby guy who likes it done that way..I have never done it..I deburred and polished up the valley in the 427 when I first got.Pretty easy to do and the high nickel (hee hee)polishes up real quick..
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I've never used it on any engine, never seen a reason to do so. I can see it on an all-out dry sump race setup where you want oil to get back donw there quick and be sucked out to the holding tank. For other motors - meh. Make work IMHO. I personally rail at any overspray of any kind on internal engine parts or surfaces. Drives me nuts to see engine or parts for sale with some paint color all over the valve springs, cylinder decks, etc. Says "poor workmanship".
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I only use the brush on type. Never have to worry about overspray. I hate it too. :(
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FWIW,I came into possession of a Cleveland-type manifold some years ago. It had had the full treatment including heat-barrier coatings on both inside and outside surfaces. The exterior was a dull black; the underside was a sorta-virulent bright green. I don't know that they still do such things but I was told that the surface treatment had added $400 to the prep of that manifold. It had come from a max-effort short-track team.
When I did an engine at Roush's Prototype Shop, I found it to be standard procedure to do the cartridge-roll clean-up on all as-cast interior surfaces. They were not enthusiastic regarding Glyptal.
KS
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This thread hits home with me. I currently having a 1971 427 side-oiler service block at my machinist for an upcoming build. The lifter valley is painted with Glyptal 1201. I have been told that service blocks had this done by Ford but it is only hearsay. I had to have the lifter bores sleeved which ruined much of the paint in those areas. I did some research and would rather re-apply the Glyptal paint and re-bake instead of grinding off ALL the old paint. Apparently Glyptal can be painted over old Glyptal as long as it's scored, prepped,and cleaned, cleaned, and cleaned again. I will be baking the block as recommended. Prior to the sleeving, the paint was in superb condition so I feel confident it will last me another 44 years.
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FWIW,I came into possession of a Cleveland-type manifold some years ago. It had had the full treatment including heat-barrier coatings on both inside and outside surfaces. The exterior was a dull black; the underside was a sorta-virulent bright green. I don't know that they still do such things but I was told that the surface treatment had added $400 to the prep of that manifold. It had come from a max-effort short-track team.
KS
Are the inside walls of the manifold smooth or a little rough? I've seen a lot of discussion about smooth walls vs rough finish in order to give optimal flow. Has to do with the boundary layer at the wall, how it effects turbulence and keeping the fuel suspended in the air.
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The runners are certainly not polished inside. I think it's generally accepted that a sanded-to-even-things-out-but-slightly-rough surface is best for the reasons you mentioned.
KS
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I never use it, and won't- just smooth up with the cartridge roll and several cleanings with carb cleaner then soapy water blast. Saw a 351W once with smoked bearings and the pump screen full of Glyptal- back when it was all the rage. Never thought much of the fad of Scotchbrite treatment on bearings either- better to leave the coating on the bearings