FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: fekbmax on July 14, 2015, 02:16:38 PM
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Id like to get some input on building an Fe for an 6/71 - roots type blower application. A friend of mine has acquired a 64 falcon that was being built to meet "east coast Gasser's" rules with solid front axle and so forth. He is working on the chassis now trying to finish it up. He also acquired a 390 D4TE block with the extra webbing and fitted with some kind of billet steel Crossbolt caps that I dint recognize. They dint appear to be pro-gram caps or old PSE caps. Maybe another brand or custom made idk . The block has been completely filled with some type of block Filler, its a darker gray and looks like hardblok to me as moroso fill tends to be a bit lighter in color. He plans to run methanol or alcohol and only minimal head cooling or no cooling system at all. I realize back in the day they ran these kind of cars with no cooling system but I have no experience with that and my questions would be does methanol or alcohol really Al ow you to do this ? Is this block usable for this or anything or is it now junk ? If it is usable then my next questions would be what kind of stroke and rod lengths would be best for this kinda combination ? What would be a good base line compression ? The block is a fresh .060 over and only needs some finish honing. What type of head would be a good choose ? They can be steel or aluminum. I'm just curious as to any thought or input.
Side note, he has a bunch of small block stuff and is also thinking of going that route. Id hate to see him do that and would like to see him go with the Fe. If what he has is usable then I think he would choose the Fe.
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He plans to run methanol or alcohol and only minimal head cooling or no cooling system at all. I realize back in the day they ran these kind of cars with no cooling system but I have no experience with that and my questions would be does methanol or alcohol really Al ow you to do this ?
-Yes, running either does provide a cooling effect unlike gasoline. But, both have major drawbacks like poor fuel economy and methanol's tendency to eat up even metal fittings over time. Those and a few others.
Is this block usable for this or anything or is it now junk ?
-You may even get by on gasoline on the street but the full block fill makes that iffy. Great for a drag-only car or boat!
If it is usable then my next questions would be what kind of stroke and rod lengths would be best for this kinda combination ?
-I'd say stock to both but your at a .060 boresize already so....not much to talk about here. But if you have no crank right now, a stroker is really no more $ than a std. stroke crank.
What would be a good base line compression ?
-Depends. See the attached FAQs' and chart. http://www.blowerdriveservice.com/technical-charts.html
What type of head would be a good choose ? They can be steel or aluminum.
-Either will work. For FE's, Barry, Jay, Brent and others here can better answer this question.
p.s. commit that total compression chart to memory and one can't go wrong when changing fuel, blower drive speed, etc.
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I think for a track-only car you could get by with just cooling the heads and running methanol. For a roots type blown application, I'd be conservative and stick with 8.5:1 compression. And I would definitely recommend aluminum heads, which transfer heat better than cast iron and would help stave off detonation.
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Thanks for the input so far guys. Ill pass all this along. I'm going to ride up this weekend and see what all he has. Be interesting to put an engine like this together. Thanks for the BDS tech link to. Lots of great information there. I'm sure if he decides he wants me to put it together for him then ill be leaning on you guys for more advice.
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Heads - the real trick here is getting a blower intake (i.e. a real as-cast intake) to fit said heads. Hi-Riser and TP blower intakes are rare (former) to non-existent (latter). IMO, any steel FE head that port matches to your selected blower intake is good. But as Jay said, any aluminum head would be better as all have better as-cast overall flow rates than almost all iron heads (HR and TP maybe excluded) better chambers and better exhaust ports.
Getting the best flowing exhaust port and matching exhaust system is key with any blower motor btw.
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For a standard medium riser FE head you can get a 351C blower manifold, and use one of my adapters. That setup would be lots better than most of the FE blower setups I've seen, which are Weiand or Offy manifolds converted for blower use by bolting a plate on top, and forcing all the air through the carb openings. I think the 351C blower manifolds might be easier to find than a dedicated FE blower manifold also.
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Just an off question, but I've noticed that it seems like 8.5:1 seems to be pretty much a standard for forced induction. Why doesn't it seem like the boost PSI has an influence on that? I would think that there's a big difference between say, 5-6 PSI and an engine that pushes upwards of 20 PSI. Doesn't the boost effectively raise compression? Wouldn't that mean that effective compression is considerably higher in higher boost situations?
I have no experience in forced induction, but my Son has a centrifugally charged Fox bodied Mustang that was based on a stock block. It didn't take long for the block to expire and I'd like to help him build an engine for it, so I'm just trying to learn here.
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Doug,
I don't know anything about forced induction with Gasoline engines, but in the Diesel world, we also consider 7psi to be the cutoff.
What I mean, is after 7psi boost pressure we normally figure that without an aftercooler you are just heating the intake charge, and it isn't worth the effort to push more air into it. I don't know how much of an issue it is with a Gas engine, but I'd assume the colder intake charge would allow you more leniency with compression ratio.
I would assume that hotter air would play a huge factor on the required compression ratio. Luckily I work on the water, weight isn't an issue, and massive air/water intercoolers are the norm.
Just a thought.
Dp
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Good point, Drew. I didn't consider the huge need for intercoolers with more boost. That would explain a lot of it.
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http://www.blowerdriveservice.com/technical-charts.html
Take a look again at the BDS chart. The vertical bar on the left is the engine's static C/R. The horizontal bar at the top shows blower boost pressure. The matrix shows how combining both produces the total or real C/R....more static C/R and more blower boost equals some really high actual total C/R's that can get one into trouble real quick on pump gas....and even race gas.
At high static levels with lots of boost (see lower right side of the matrix) one must run a methanol or alky blend or pure methanol or pure alky or even nitro as no gasoline racing fuel is made to handle such high C/R's.
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For a standard medium riser FE head you can get a 351C blower manifold, and use one of my adapters. That setup would be lots better than most of the FE blower setups I've seen, which are Weiand or Offy manifolds converted for blower use by bolting a plate on top, and forcing all the air through the carb openings. I think the 351C blower manifolds might be easier to find than a dedicated FE blower manifold also.
I have noticed that as well Jay and was talking with my friend Ralph. He has found a couple of intakes for a 351c at reasonable prices so if he chooses to go this route soon as I get my adapter from you and know I have it in my hands, (I dint like getting rid of stuff till I have a replacement in my hands
A back ordered blue thunder manifold at close to $1500 fo a Fe compaired to 351 c manifolds at $350 (Australian) to $600 and even if he got one of your adapters new he still would comen out cheaper. Also the added benefit of doing the Cleveland manifold with an adapter, im thinking the spacer plate may not be needed for distributor clearance.
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Please note that methanol is a really excellent 'chemical intercooler'. My first experience with methanol was as a high-school kid going to a local 1/4 mile asphalt track with a friend's uncle. He had a 91 CI Offy on methanol in his quarter-midget track car. He ran it so rich that raw fuel dripped out of the pipes in the pits and the frost formed very thickly on the injectors and intake manifold. It would almost frost-burn your hand to touch it. It cooled very well!
I currently run methanol along with the nitrous oxide spray in my E/F CC ECTA record holder. The fresh engine I'm slowly working on will be blown and I intend to put a Hobbs switch in a pump circuit to turn on the methanol as the boost comes up. I don't expect to use an intercooler.
KS
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So he should be ok with the full block and just doing the reverse cooling through the cylinder head's ?.
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Just an off question, but I've noticed that it seems like 8.5:1 seems to be pretty much a standard for forced induction. Why doesn't it seem like the boost PSI has an influence on that? I would think that there's a big difference between say, 5-6 PSI and an engine that pushes upwards of 20 PSI. Doesn't the boost effectively raise compression? Wouldn't that mean that effective compression is considerably higher in higher boost situations?
According to the knowledgeable people I know, and my own experience with my supercharged engine, equating boost with compression ratio is flat wrong. That BDS chart is extremely misleading. Think about it this way: Let's say you have a compression ratio of 8.5:1. If you put 15 pounds of boost into the engine with a turbo, where you aren't losing any power at the crank from turning the blower, you will effectively double the horsepower output of the engine. Does anyone really think that raising the compression ratio of the engine from 8.5:1 to 17:1, like the chart says will happen, will double horsepower output? Of course it won't; the entire analogy is flawed.
Superchargers and turbos work by stuffing more air molecules, and the associated fuel, into the cylinder. Double the air molecules in the cylinder does not mean doubling the effective compression ratio. FYI I ran 112 octane in my 489" supercharged FE, with 17 pounds of boost, made 1030 horsepower, and did not experience detonation as long as the air/fuel ratio was in the ballpark. That engine had 8.5:1 compression, and would have never run at 17:1 compression with 112 octane fuel.
Regarding your original question, I think that for the most part the 8.5:1 number is the result of a lot of experience with carbureted engines. But you can go higher, with sophisticated fuel controls like EFI, water/methanol injection, or alternative fuels. The modern supercharged engines from Detroit do just that. And as far as running more boost, you will need better fuel or an alternative fuel, and maybe a change in the timing curve, and richer air/fuel mixtures. But the 8.5:1 compression ratio seems to work all the way up to 40-50 psi of boost without a lot of modification. Not sure why, but there it is...
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Hi
We did a lot of blown FE's at Ford racing at at local Drag Strips so I will share some stuff. I have also built,crewed and Crew Chiefed winning blown HEMI's over the decades, for the old school Nostalgia cars from the 60s, many guys on these teams all talk tune up race by race, if a little of it helps a FORD then great.
We were lucky to have won many races by using a lot of old FORD tricks and old parts like yours, with modern key parts.
This is always a team effort and I hope that yours is too.
First, just from the post. The block is poured with epoxy or a similar block fill
This was not done in the 60s. An example would be for a much higher power target
The FORD team blown fuel funny cars, and the SOHC engines, ran a water block, and water heads
That is slang for you added water to the block and heads
That would help pull away heat, but also, sometimes signal if you pushed out, or began the 'torch' a head gasket.
Credit the late great Dale Armstrong for sharing with some friends his trick. At the very very end of running stock blocks blown for maximum effort, he quietly told me in around 1970, due to the FORD team we were on, he actually added fine cement based grout.
And it helped. So your epoxy is a good way to stabilize the bores and decks. Plus, ALKy seems to send the cooling system less heat than gas, so that helps you.
All blown race engines are not 8.5, but on alky, you can run 8s with just 8 to one
The Funny cars from the 60s, and many of the fastest Dragsters from that era, could be as low as 6 to 1, and many were 7 to one
The thinking always falls into 2 camps it seems
The Tommy Grove style tune up was awesome, it lived great, and is was very reliable. He ran low compression for a smart reason, more fuel, he will tell you, can fill the cylinder, Less piston, more chamber volume, so more fuel, and he will say...I liked to build a bigger bomb
That always made me laugh. He says, I used to like firecrackers, so I figured, more fuel,is like a bigger load of gu powder
The PINK SOHC's, ask Ed, did best around 7 to 1. They flew. I grew up watching so many of them locally.
8.5 to 1 on Alky will be stout man. You spin that blower up and hang on
Now we have a 390
So this is a wedge
So what heads? Running a blown wedge is not the same, cam and timing wise, BUT, you can make huge and reliable numbers with a wedge, no doubt.
Blown 390s and 406s on Gas were popular in the early 60s, and they ran in the old K88 or Dragmaster chassis, high gear only. Google a K88 or Dragmaster. Short wheel base, light, fast
The Nelson brothers from San Diego County, down by CROWER.
So this sounds like your build?
If you both have not done blown FE's, keep studying
I need to know if you have a maximum blower over drive rule
In Nostalgia Nitro, the NHRA Heritage class we all run, the max is 18 over
So check that
You going to be the Crew Chief?
The 8 8.5 is good, but, strong aluminum rods and good blower pistons are key
I would check out VENOLIA, they do some of the fastest blower pistons, for many top teams, or ARIAS. They have real talented tuners on the tech desks, big name guys Dads and so on
Many good blown pistons are there
Top ring , stainless
No pin lock, you want buttons. They eliminate the tru arcs and hold the pin centered
I need to know, any street use?
Many around here do short blasts with aluminum rods
VENOLIA has tough ones. They make the ones with ALAN JOHNSON, and they can handle 10,000 HP. They are gorgeous
You have Right Rods, many choices, running a RAT SIZE? Or 392 Chrysler?
The trick for the FORD blown stuff, the fastest stuff, was turning the FE rod journals down to the 392 CHRYSLER size
On ALKY, a RAT with modest boost is just fine.
ALKY is so easy on parts
Ask any Nostalgia Blown Gasser, it is kind of a old deal, it is very hard to burn a piston on alky with a 6-71 unless some , well, it is tuned by the wrong guy
Look into a Magneto
The fuel system is key
Enderle, Hilborn and others can be a huge help
For a race tune, email me. We have friends that win
On the cam, many fast Blwon FE's and Rats run a ENGLE
CROWER is huge
ISKY has old winning grinds tha live and fly We have set new records with old ISKYS and ENGLES
Many can help
ENGLE is a blown specialist, so is HOWARD, ISKY and CROWER
Need a gear drive to compete
Need a pump, barrel valve, injecter, nozzles, lines, bypasses, fuel shut off
You also really really need a smart fuel tank
You do not want to launch this old guys, and then uncover the supply line down track
The fuel rushes to the back of the tank, so, no cavitation allowed
You do not want to swallow an air bubble and hurt it, going dead lean
I am very VERY happy to hear about this
Running water heads is fine, gone 6 flat that way with iron heads even
Like Jay and your pals suggest, an aluminum head radiates more heat, you want to run studs for sure and a hardened washer, what is great is, the aluminum head is weldable if you hurt it, lighter, so it actually move the C of G back and helps the launch,(center of gravity of, front weight less, rear weight more,,,,when you scale the car(weight the front wheel weight, then rear, they crack less, but, we had a trick for winning some Nostalgia races
Running an aluminum water block, then you divorce the coolant
That means, no water transfer holes in the head gaskets. The iron water heads.
Also won with a billet aluminum block, and only iron water heads.
So a solid iron head on a Dodge, can go 240 MPH plus in a light rail, but aluminum is great, and fixable
You will need a soft copper head gasket
I would o ring the heads if you get to adding a lot of blower
The intake shape is key, you may want to investigate a Delta Plate
That is a plate, below the blower, above the intake, with a small training opening. These are a trick way to even the fuel flow
More when you guys get closer
I would look into port nozzles
On the 2 pathes to power
You have high static, less blower, and low static, more blower
Garlits was famous for higher compression and a lot of blower. He mastered how to tune and win this way. Safer is less static, or base compression.
This all depends on how fast you want to go, and how on top of the tune up you know how to be
No front dampener, use a degreed hub
Proud of you guys. We grew up around straight axle cars, guys even ran them on the street
Nice look Add a tilt front end....fiberglass, and have to have fender wells,,,,or fender well headers, pointed down at an angle
Want a big box style oil pan too, you extend the pick up to the back, so on a hard launch, she stays covered and pressurized
Cool man !
Have fun
Thanks guys
Fun to think like Ford friends and engineers and racers
BEst
T
Have fun
Tom
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According to the knowledgeable people I know, and my own experience with my supercharged engine, equating boost with compression ratio is flat wrong. That BDS chart is extremely misleading. Think about it this way: Let's say you have a compression ratio of 8.5:1. If you put 15 pounds of boost into the engine with a turbo, where you aren't losing any power at the crank from turning the blower, you will effectively double the horsepower output of the engine. Does anyone really think that raising the compression ratio of the engine from 8.5:1 to 17:1, like the chart says will happen, will double horsepower output? Of course it won't; the entire analogy is flawed.
Jay, I hear what you're saying but.....the chart doesn't mention hp at all.
"This chart shows the final compression ratio combining the static compression ratio of an engine and the maximum blower boost from the blower system. It is to be used as a guideline in determining the proper maximum boost level for a specific application. Final compression ratios in excess of 12.4:1 are not recommended for use with "pump gas." The higher the final compression ratio, the higher the octane rating of the fuel must be in order to help prevent detonation and serious engine damage."
I've never read this or similar charts that way (i.e. hp production) nor the blown alky folks I knew and crewed for who do stand by the overall assumptions it makes. Simply, it's helpful in noting how those high overall total C/R's can get one into trouble unless they run non-gasoline fuels. The correlation of C/R's and boost levels does exist even if the chart (or BDS's own somewhat expansive texts from the website on the matter) seem to be somewhat misleading....unintentional on their part, I'm sure.
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Bob, you have no idea how many people I've talked to who have jumped to the conclusion that raising the compression ratio is the same as adding boost to the engine, based on what that chart says. And they also seem to infer that you have to run fuel for the compression ratio in the chart, based on your boost level, which is not true. I'll stand by my comments on this one; that chart is a poor guideline to follow.
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Bob, you have no idea how many people I've talked to who have jumped to the conclusion that raising the compression ratio is the same as adding boost to the engine, based on what that chart says. And they also seem to infer that you have to run fuel for the compression ratio in the chart, based on your boost level, which is not true. I'll stand by my comments on this one; that chart is a poor guideline to follow.
Ah, I now understand Jay your concerns. I see, per your clarification, how folks have jumped, incorrectly, to assume a raised C/R is the same as adding boost. I agree, it's not the same.
I'll add that I also see now how the chart can be or is misleading for gasoline-fueled engines.....as opposed to alky/methanol/nitro racing engines which are of course a whole different animal.
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Sitting quietly, learning. ..
In just a few short days I know more now about blown engine's than I ever imagined. The old school, the new school, and everything in between. I'm simply getting schooled by all you guys input on this and I greatly appreciate it.
Thanks guys..
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As Jay noted in an earlier post, for an FE your pal's best bet is to get his adaptor and a true 351C blower manifold. Although they are available from time-to-time on E-Bay, most recent 351C blower intakes seem to all be modified carb'ed intakes with that flat plate bolted on. While this would work, heck I say do it right with a real as-cast blower intake. JMO!
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I have been thinking about your combo.
In the 60s, few ran a polished blower, so we hard anodized them. This is for cooling, a finely cast case has a lot more actual area to radiate heat and absob the coller ambient air, that was the thinking and it looks period
Also, you need to find a front cover to drive the fuel pump off the cam old school
I was thinking, JAYS cover could be adapted with a Hilborn or Enderle mount, just a register with 3 or 4 cap screws and a drive off of a grade 8 Allen Cap Screw
an old blower intake would look 60s
BUT, I want you guys to have fun.
Many guys started with port fuel injection, then a blower
Check this link out
http://www.hilborninjection.com/PDF/Hilborn2014_catalog.pdf
And check out the injected FORD in the front
See age 26 too
Mechanical fuel injection was very popular. On Alky, you run huge compression, get that guy popping crisp at idle
Big roller cam or a nasty old style flat tappet too
I'd ponder it as a logical step. You boys could haul the mail old school
And they are fun to fire up and tune. Kind if teaches you the ropes to later step up to blown and injected
Remember, the injected AFX cars flew boy I tell you. Go check them out for inspiration
Fast fun period in FORD history. And don't panic, you can add some Nitro, 6% 12%. Mixes easy with ALKY. And hold on. Guys went 200 MPH on a light load
Be well Good luck
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I've been watching this post for a while now. I make no claim to be an expert on the roots blown FE...except that I have been sitting behind one for about 5 years now...and have hurt one by my own ignorance. It is running again and seems to be pretty happy.
My suggestions for an occasionally driven car:
Lock out the timing. Start at 28 or 29 and INCH-UP on it. Detonation WILL pound your "junk" into "garbage" fast. Roots cars like alot of "leeed"...so give it some.
Use a good quality HARD top ring. Alot of folks use steel even on the street. I'm using the Childs heat treated top ring. Hard as hell to file the end gaps. Make sure your bores are STRAIGHT
Run it pig-rich THEN INCH it back down. Molten pistons and scored cylinder walls are no fun. Been there done that. Didn't care for it.
I have no experience with cars that run on alky except to say I do have a Snow water/meth injection system on my car. Its set up to start a fine mist at 4lbs. and ramp up to maximum at 8lbs.
Hope you guys have fun.
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Great advice
Tommy T has a really nice blown FE and we hope to meet him soon. (We looked 3 times for you at Knott's..LOL)
HE is a smart tuner and I agree if this is a street car. Use consistent octane fuel, then dial it in real safe, and real patienlty
Rich is safe, and bump the mag from a real safe spot in baby steps, while wtching the fuel curve and plugs.
GEt her rich until she slows down and the plugs look dark and safe, then back it up in little lean steps and be consistent as you tune it. Stay on the safe side of perfect, lean to a little rich from perfect for a margin of safety on the street
She may build a ton of heat one Summer, or you may get punk fuel
Stainless top ring, smart. Ran them in blown SOHCS in the mid 60s, but a DYKES
Never hurts to wire in a knock sensor if you can't hear detonation real well, some can, some can't.
If this is a Drag car, he has carbs, look into mechanical fuel injection or EFI maybe
You can do carbs sure, but 8 nozzles upstairs in a hat(Injection scoop) or similar EFI can be a smart way to go
We run nasty blown stuff on race gas around here on the street
Here's a trick.
You dont have to squirt the injecter like at a race, no need to carry a priming bottle
We have a safe priming buttion, like you use on a hot boat that has constant flow fuel injection. You just push that big button,1,2,3. spin it, flip the mag on and rat a tat tat tat
What is COOL about a blown gas car, with a gear drive, is that when you wing it, or rev her, then lift, she makes that good old WIND as she unwinds, and revs down
ZOOM, wizzzzzzzzzzz
Just like the AA/FD's of old
That Vroom, lift, wizzzzzzzz(gear whine) as she slows, really brings some old guys back to the Drag days of old
have fun, Tommy has my vote for Crew Chief. He'll dial ya in !!
Final thing, read them plugs a lot !! Once set, and dialed in? Easy street. Just mash the gas and hold on
blown gas is an easy way to get 3 horsepower per cube
Thanks !
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Mine is almost back together a week or so and some polish and back in my 68 it goes
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Cool! Let's see it again when installed.
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Looking cool
Looks like she will be ready for many more miles of fast fun ! Nice job man, looking all force fed and fun.
I bet that the guys would enjoy the build specs and tune up data to kind of ponder?
She looks pretty close to straight up? Around 1 to 1 ? And I see a pair of Holley's very cool, maybe 660 center squirters? How much jet? Bet the guys will enjoy that, more jet, burned well, is fast !
Nice looking aluminum heads, and all the details, looking cool man
So, how much static compression? And how much is the down? Maybe 250 down flat tops? WHo's slugs? Standard stainless top ring?
Does she run a mix of pump and good gas? or just good gas, or pump premium?
How much advance? And is she locked out or a quick short curve and a lot of initial?
I think these guys might learn by getting closer to good combos.
Ever read the boost at WOT? I bet these new blown FE guys would learn some basic tune up talk if they get a boost target in pounds, you know? Like, she is set safe safe, I usually run 'x' pounds of boost, she sees 5 pounds, but I have a race gas tune up, I change the pulley and run...10 pounds...you know.... then they can kind of gauge their goal a bit
If I recall, you ran this street combo forever, so maybe if they learn the specs a bit, and how reliable she was, they might feel more confident from the start, any maybe learn the car and power level with it backed down to the safe and reliable zone.
Blown combos come in may shapes and sizes, from very streetable, to hot street strip, needing race gas only, to hot drag tun ups, to max race on gas combos
Some people forget, that that 6-71 GMC Jimmy, the old roots, came off of long haul, super reliable trucks that ran and ran forever in industry. Some people figure, blower, top fuel, boom a lot, and tear down every run. On Nitro, sure, on gas, much much more mellow
I am not sure of their direction here, but I am sure, that we did many many blown FE's at the old Holman Moody Stroppe shop, and many with very efficient single and twin turbos, and I sometimes wish that more guys added a blower to their FE
It is an easy way to dial in, power, and, tune her up and down
2 Horsepower per cube can be done real well, and if you want to run her hard as can be, much more is there in a race setting
They also have the water methanol option, if they chose pump gas and some street heat
And as you and many guys know here, they can add a safety net, with a knock sensor, and retarder as part of the ignition map, and amp.
It was huge when MSD and others began making retard function boxes for a lot of blown guys.
Looks real cool and pro built. Who's blower cam?
Hope many more guys get a huffed FE from you for their Hot rod
Who does your blowers? Maybe they can use your blower shop. Not stripped since she runs so long, or?
Thanks man
Nice job