FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: garyv on June 28, 2015, 03:46:38 PM
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I am looking at putting a "pro" TKO 600 in my 66 Fairlane in order handle
the added HP and TQ from my TP motor. I have exceeded the HP/TQ capacity
of my BI/BO top loader. This "pro" TKO is supposed to handle 770 ft.lbs of TQ so I should be
safe. I know a C4 or 6 is an option but not really what I want.
I know a few of you have done this conversion and I'm looking for advice before I
attempt this.
I already have a Quick Time SFI bell and clutch set up. Need to know about the cross
member and any mods it might need. Also what shifter and handle you are using. My car has bench seat so probably
different from one with console.
Appreciate any info.
garyv
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I have exceeded the HP/TQ capacity of my BI/BO top loader.
How do you know? Did you blow it up? ;)
What is a "pro" TKO?
I would imagine it will take a couple of good swings with a BFH to fit it in the tunnel.
I had to give mine a couple of good swings to get the Jerico in. :P
The top cover is just a bit taller than a stock TL.
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Howie from everyone I have talked with 700+HP n TQ is beyond the capabilities of a toploader.
I was told I would grenade it so I didn't want to risk it. I have another use for it.
I built a BI/BO back during the winter and was expecting to use it but my TP was a big surprise.
Nice problem to have I guess ;D
I talked with Brent about this and he suggested a "pro" as he calls it TKO 600
They cryogenically treat the gears n shafts and also has carbon fiber blocking rings.
Supposed to handle 770 ftlbs of continuous TQ and not just an occasional rip down the track.
Its either this or a Jerico which probably wouldn't be much fun on the street. Not to mention several K more.
garyv
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Pretty sure Barry R is still pounding on his TL, although with some mods
and I can bet he don't have no limp FE in there. ;D
It's more about the clutch I think.
I drive my Jerico with V gate on the street and planning on a long distance run very soon.
It is a street car after all. And it shifts awesome. Up or down. Love it!
Unless you are using some big ass slicks I wouldn't worry about a well built TL and a good clutch.
You can't hook with any real street tire even with 500 plus HP.
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Brent's TKO is a very nice piece, and once you grab 5th you'll love it much more than any TL if it's a street strip car. I do recommend an aftermarket shifter if you are going to hammer gears though. The stock shifter likes to go straight to neutral, right between 3rd and 5th when you get excited. I personally think that is it more due to us being used to "all the way over and up" for 3rd, and in a 5 speed, that isn't true. But the aftermarket shifters have a spring that pushes you toward third unless you try for 5th
Just be sure that you maintain stock crank centerline angle. Best way to do this is measure before and after. Too many guys try to hang the tail end low for floor clearance, it's just the wrong way to do it and in 5th at triple digit speeds, that driveshaft is going to be spinning FAST.
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Brent suggested a Steeda TriAx shifter Ross.
It's spring loaded so it goes straight from 2nd to 3rd they claim.
As for tires Howie I run MT ET Streets 275-60-15's.
It hooks up pretty good.
garyv
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Do you have a factory 4-speed tunnel cover already?
Is your QT bell for the T/L input length or TKO length?
Your stock 4-speed/C6 crossmember fits fine. I didn't have to modify the tunnel on my 66 GT to fit, but I did need to use a shorter shifter with an offset to get the handle centered.
I don't think it matters what seats you're using, you will want the shifter to come through the floor in about the same spot.
(http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq183/dajameson/DSCN4913.jpg) (http://s446.photobucket.com/user/dajameson/media/DSCN4913.jpg.html)
(http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq183/dajameson/NewShifter-1.jpg) (http://s446.photobucket.com/user/dajameson/media/NewShifter-1.jpg.html)
(http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq183/dajameson/TKO.jpg) (http://s446.photobucket.com/user/dajameson/media/TKO.jpg.html)
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you will be fine with the pro tko , but tremec s torque ratings are done at a 5000 lb vehicle at a continuous load cycle so you probably would have been fine with a regular tremec , or toploader , especially with street tires . I dont think with street tires you would ever hook it hard enough to hurt it , jmo Bud .. i have seen people abuse stock toploaders with big big tires , or small slicks and not break them ...
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Thank guys for responding.
I appreciate your input.
Does anyone really know how much abuse a BI/BO TL can handle?
I have heard a bunch of opinions of this topic but nothing definite where
someone says once you reach X HP n TQ you need to upgrade.
If I were just running street tires I wouldn't be as concerned but I am running
MT ET Streets so I think this changes things.
Thanks again
garyv
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I really doubt that the TL is weaker than that TKO, except for age, potentially worn parts, etc, especially a big in/out.
However, you know the TKO is fresh, who knows what the TL has been through and if you go through it to the level of that Pro box, it will be nearly as expensive and not have 5th gear :)
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I just built this BI/BO TL this past winter from a small in/out.
David Kee bored the tail shaft and installed the larger bushing and supplied
all the new parts. It has the best stuff he offers in it.
It should be tough but I would hate to ruin and then have to end up fixing
it and have to then buy a TKO.
I guess its only $$$. :)
garyv
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What are you going to with the car?
Full strip or drive it on the street and make a few passes each season?
Your going to have to do some serious side steps to hurt the TL.
I'd bet you a rusty old truck valve cover you'd hurt the TKO before the TL.
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Mostly going to be street driven and some trips to the local track.
I plan on beating on it pretty hateful.
I wanna see that cover Howie. :).
garyv
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Hey Gary, here is a link to some toploader builds.
http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/transmission-articles/496380-liberty-faceplated-proshifted-toploader.html
I plan on converting my small in/out to big in/out and faceplate 2, 3, and 4. I would also like to get the internals cryo-ed. We have had a small in/out in about a 3700lb car with slicks and ran 12.37 with it, no problem. It has all factory guts. I think a well prepped TL can be a contender. I feel they can be underestimated. I guess if you want to have a fifth gear, you have no option but to ditch the toploader.
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What clutch?
That will be the decider as to whether you start spitting teeth.
Be from the gear box or rear gear.
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Thanks Jared I'll check it out.
Howie the clutch is a McLeod street twin.
I have 31 spline axles and a Nascar built rear with 3.91gear and a locker.
I think it should be tough enough.
will probably upgrade all that later to 35 spline.
garyv
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I'll see your rusty old truck valve cover and raise you an oxidized fuel pump block off plate. ;)
We made 696 hp and 600 lb-ft with the 465 inch iteration of Gary's TP. We are adding over 40 cubic inches and 10 more degrees of camshaft duration this time around. I think he's going to be in Toploader-splitting territory if he gets a good hard launch.
It's more of a logistics point now....if he busts the Toploader, he's gonna end up with a busted Toploader and a clutch he can't use anymore.
I have built the face plated Toploaders and although they are stout, they are not nearly as street-friendly, nor do they have the overdrive, which would be nice with a 3.91-4.10 gearset.
This build has evolved from a hot street car deal to a hotter street/strip deal. I think if Gary plans to do a little drag racing, the Street Twin should be ditched for a Soft-Lok or similar adjustable pressure plate. It's just hard to get a combination that works really well in both scenarios with this kind of horsepower.
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We use to crash box top loaders back in the day.. not so good on the street but it sure was good fun on the strip.
I agree with Howie, tend to agree with alot of his post, the clutch and how much slippage you can get away with is the key to making a top loader live. I used race type pressure plates on the street just for that reason of being able to dial the clutch in with adjustable base pressures and centrifugal weight. Sure its alot of work but once you get it right your good to go. Well worth it for a hot weekend cruiser.
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I have built the face plated Toploaders and although they are stout, they are not nearly as street-friendly, nor do they have the overdrive, which would be nice with a 3.91-4.10 gearset.
Brent, when you say they aren't street friendly, just how obnoxious is it? I would like to know before I do mine. Is it all the air gap between the faceplate lugs? Was 1st gear faceplated in the one you did? I was planning on leaving the synchro on 1st to downshift and start out easier. Is shifting on the street much different? I would like to keep my h pattern comp. plus shifter.
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Brent, when you say they aren't street friendly, just how obnoxious is it? I would like to know before I do mine. Is it all the air gap between the faceplate lugs? Was 1st gear faceplated in the one you did? I was planning on leaving the synchro on 1st to downshift and start out easier. Is shifting on the street much different? I would like to keep my h pattern comp. plus shifter.
When shifting a dog ring gear box at slow speed there is solid clunk when the dog engages.
Kinda Kool if you like bad ass mechanical junk. ::)
Serious man points if you are going power shift a dog ring with the H pattern. ;)
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Had meant to post this last night, but went to a Boston/Night Ranger concert and didn't get home until midnight....
Any gear that doesn't have a synchro has to be treated as such....so you gotta be quick on the shift regardless the situation.
I've done Toploaders with synchronized 1-2 and face plated 3-4. I built this one for a customer (and for a Modified Mustangs & Fords article) in Florida, went in a '34 Ford with a Long shifter (no H-pattern, inline)...
(http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u267/shellvalleyowner/IMG_0105-2.jpg)
(http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u267/shellvalleyowner/mdmp-1106-06-omanual-transmission-reviewsford-top-loader_zpscj6c5tx4.jpg)
(http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u267/shellvalleyowner/LongToploader2.jpg)
(http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u267/shellvalleyowner/LongToploader1.jpg)
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Thanks for posting Brent and Howie, I appreciate it. Thanks for the included pics too Brent. Hopefully I'm not hijacking Gary's thread. I just wanted to get some facts before I dive in. I understand you do have be quick on shifter though, since there is no synchro to slow things down. I understand you can either double clutch or just bang the next gear while tapping the cluch. I'm guessing the AN fitting in the 2nd pic was for venting? Does it help to balance pressure between the halves?
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Just a vent....
A lot of your TKO's, T-56's, etc., will have a little poppet vent on the tailhousing.