FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Ean R on June 06, 2015, 02:57:02 AM
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I have my 427 side oiler block at an engine rebuilders in Perth Australia.
If you live in Perth you will already be cringing.
All I wanted was the block sonic tested and line honed bored out etc.
They are telling me the bore is at 4.232.
That it hasn't been sleeved but they can't bore it out anymore as the cylinder walls are only 80 thou?
Then they are trying to say it may be something else bored out to 427ci.
3 engine builders, ford gurus apparently, I've been to in Perth. One tried to sell me a small block?
One told me 390's were the same block as the 427 and this one is trying to say it may be a 360 turned into a 427.
Apart from the glaringly obvious fact I have to pick up my block from these people and the equally glaringly obvious fact that the side oiler is unique to the 427 only (410?) is it possible to have an under stock bore that is too thin to bore out to 4.25?
Or should I just take it to another shop? This shop has torque plates for honing etc, only one in Perth apparently.
Any Aussies out there? Willing to send this interstate if I have too. Surely you can get a 427 fe machined properly in Australia somewhere?
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Possibly an irrigation block maybe. ? A block deemed not suitable for automotive use because of thin cylinder bores or core shif or some other problems with the casting. Many Fe/Ft blocks that would not pass inspection for automotive use where used for earagation/industrial/farm use because they were deemed to be acceptable for continuous low RPM use.. just a thought, I could be wrong for sure. I found a block just a year ago that was a standard 390 bore but was cast with the cross bolt bosses and appeared to be one of the blocks with the high manganese silicon content, thought I had a gem. The cylinders were to thin to even do a .030 over bore. Was a heart breaker.
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Where are they measuring. A 427 with cloverleaf shaped cylinder cores may be pretty thin in some spots, yet still be OK. The thicker corners in the core will supply some support. Also possible to add a short layer of block filler if the thin spot is near the bottom as is common - reduces the span top to bottom.
A hone to 4.250 may not be required, pistons can be made to any increment and we have many running at 4.240. At that point we are only talking about a .0035 reduction in wall thickness.
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Ean, I saw your block at one machine shop in Osborne Park, not sure if these were the guys who did the sonic check. It would have to have some serious core shift to only have 0.080" wall thickness at standard bore. And like I said to you before, there are not too many engine builders in Perth that really know FE's. I'd be taking it to a different machine shop to get a second opinion on the sonic check. Make sure you get a hard copy of the results and post them up here for the brains trust to assess.
And don't worry too much about the shop having the only torque plate in Perth. The shop where I saw you block, I asked the shop owner if he had a FE torque plate. He didn't, but said there was one available that all the machine shops share.
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I wonder too just how accurate their sonic test measurements really are? Did they give you a sonic map of each cylinder and if so, can you post it?
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This sounds like you need to tool up and do some of the work yourself.
I'd get your block back and measure it yourself.
There is nothing on the block that you can't measure in your shed with some basic tools.
Hell, you can get the block ready for service in your shed if you want to. jmho
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Thanks for the quick response fellas.
I've measured it roughly when I stripped it down and it went 4.233 so I thought I'd won the lotto as in it still was original bore size.
The blocks getting sonic checked somewhere else as these guys haven't given me a print out and I doubt they've even checked it.
As to it being an irrigation block, I don't know, it has the steel crank $ stamped, the factory machined chambered heads and fomoco forged pistons, lemans rods with cap screws and ford sidewinder intake.
So from my understanding all the gear that points towards a normal 427. Does have the ribs cast in the block though.
The shop also told me the pistons were very undersized.
The only other experience I've had with big blocks is in a couple of 428 mustangs (weird when you think about it as fe's are rare here)
My Fairlane was a completely different animal to these stangs and the engine was much meaner quicker and louder than either of the 428's.
So surely I haven't got the only 427 block ever poured that's too thin to rebuild?
I'll get proper results and post so the experts can help.
Barry I'm guessing you can supply pistons any size? I should've known I do have yours and jays books.
Todd I'll pm my number to you again.
Thanks guys and I'll be back with some figures soon.
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A sonic check on this block means absolutely nothing.
It is a waste of time and money.
You have a stock bore 427, right?
You're only going to hone the bores to a clean state.
And get pistons to fit, right?
You need to focus on the block.
Does it hold water?
Is it all rusty and need complete machining or is it close to useable?
Is it cracked?
Who cares how thick the bores are? Is it going to change you're plans?
Unless you're going to step up to an after market block or have another 427 stock bore block
sitting beside it. You're going to run what you have? jmo
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It is really unfortunate that your local machine shops are this clueless about the FE. Also FYI on my .060" over 427 factory block I have a couple cylinder walls that sonic check between 0.075" and 0.080" in some spots, but that engine made 650 HP as one of my dyno mules for my book, and I beat it mercilessly in the process ;D. Barry is correct, the cloverleaf shape of the bore spacings really helps with the bore strength on the 427 blocks. Get one of those local shops to power hone that block to the smallest possible finished dimension, and then get a set of custom pistons to match. I think you'll be just fine with that approach.
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I have a 64 center oiler that is the same. Standard bore with minimal wear, and I took out the original stock pistons. There are several cylinders that were right about 0.080" thick on the sides, showing a good amount of core shift as the other side was nice and thick.
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Get one of those local shops to power hone that block to the smallest possible finished dimension, and then get a set of custom pistons to match. I think you'll be just fine with that approach.
Best advice right there.
If it's really at standard bore, I wouldn't care what any sonic check said, I'd hone it the smallest amount possible and get custom pistons for it. SOME blocks can't handle much of an overbore, some can, but I've never seen a stock bore block be too thin to not use.
And what on earth do they mean "very undersized" pistons? How can they be undersized? Ford had different sized pistons that were available for the stock 427 back in the day, so that cylinder/piston clearance could be achieved WITHOUT overboring or honing. Maybe they're confusing a slightly smaller piston that was used to gain more clearance. It wasn't that uncommon to build an engine "looser" back then so it would wind quick and easy.
Never ever bore a stock sized 427 block just to save money on a "standard" or older set of .010, .020 or .030 oversized pistons. All it does is shorten the life of the block.
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All I wanted was the block honed, machined or whatever it needed so I could bolt it back together. Not trying to turn it into a 500 cube drag motor.
I'm a complete novice at this and couldn't find a set of stock bore pistons anywhere on the internet?
Hence my thinking it needed to go out to 4.250.
40 odd year old block and it went just fine before the head gasket blew so this motor can stay at 427 or close enough. I'm using the original crank so big cubes wasn't the goal.
The fact I know more about an engine than the 60 yr old bloke at the machine shop who probably has dealt with 10000 v8's is frustrating to say the least.
These people have never heard the term FE or side oiler!, you try explaining the blocks were poured thin from factory and they look at you like you just slapped them.
Mention clover leaf bores and you may as well be talking Swahili
Stay tuned I could be the first person to stick an engine block up someone's arse, followed by a set of "very undersized pistons"
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A possible reason they are saying the piston is under size is
you have an old set of TRW's and they had a spec of something like .007" clearance.
A tad rattlely when cold.
What's wrong with the pistons?
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How loose? I've got a feeling 7 sounds right.
It never blew smoke but it did ping (rattle) a bit when pushed hard. I thought it was a loose exhaust bolt or timing?
The bloke says they're forged pistons and they've got fomoco stamped underneath. Valves have hit and scored 2 pistons slightly but I wouldn't know what I'm looking at.
They're all the same shape and not burnt or melted in any way? Rings all look the sme and the bores look brand new. When I first went there he said the pistons were ok, the next they're shot?
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Take a bunch of pictures of your gear and if you want I will post them here
for the brain trust to comment on.
my addy 390fairlane@gmail.com
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Stay tuned I could be the first person to stick an engine block up someone's arse, followed by a set of "very undersized pistons"
Now that wins the annual award for the funniest post of the year! Hah!
Yeah, it's sad no one understands FE at your end yet one would think a quality engine builder could be quite knowledgeable, given a few FE specific tips. Heck, it's only an engine for chrissake! About 95% of any engine build is common...boring, honing, part fitment, gasket sealing, etc.
But I do get what your talking about since here in the USA many Chevy shops become brainless (and that's no joke!) when presented with anything but a Chevy! Folks here like Brett, Barry, Jay and others here could build any make of engine pretty much blindfolded.
It ain't really that hard. ;)
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Ean,
send me a pm in regards to which machine shop you are using in Osborne park, there are three i no of there and i am on a first name basis with 2 of them. I have had basic machining done there at both shops to FE blocks, and many other uncommon engines that are very hard to replace, 1938 Nash 6, Honda Cbx 6 to name a few.
I am not aware if they have torque plates but can call them and find out.
I am positive that they will ask for pistons to measure so they can hone to size as boring very small amounts may cause chatter in the tool resulting in a unsatisfactory bore finish.
While neither are FE specialists i have found both to be very knowledgeable in many aspects of machining and more importantly measuring.
i am not sure of this forums rules but think a PM is a better way to help solve your problems.
Joel
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Ean,
Having reread your thread 2 things are noted.
Todd hangs around machine shops..spying at others FE..parts. 8)
Secondly you stated a "engine builder".
The shops i refereed to are machine shops only, they will generally not build you a engine, if you have a very large budget, and a race team, they might be convinced to build engines.
In perth engine builders and machine shops are very different animals.
;)
Joel
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Machine shop called blah blah blah engines. Bit misleading, picked it up today.
I'll PM you.
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Take a bunch of pictures of your gear and if you want I will post them here
for the brain trust to comment on.
my addy 390fairlane@gmail.com
I'll try put them up otherwise ill email to you
Thanks
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Hi Ean,
A few hours from where I live in Sydney, there's a guy named Denis Obrien and he specialises in FE's... He also races a 427 Galaxie and a couple different mustangs in Group N historic racing. He will be building my 427 when the time comes. I know your on the other side of OZ but it might be an idea to pallet it over where the work will be done by someone who does specialise in the FE.. Here is his website if you are interested..
http://www.vintageracingservices.com.au/Engines.html
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Thank you Ozze, I'll get in touch with him.
Ive had my C6 built over there so I may as we'll trust the block to someone that knows what an FE is rather than here in Windsor Australia!!
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I can't help laugh if only there were some way to get the wizards at the nothing printed sonic test "machine shop" to measure the bores diagonally.
I believe it should be mandatory to physically test a few of the accessible water jacket opening holes for cylinder wall thickness mechanically derived using calipers and compare it to the sonic test figures at those points. Then you see what was derived vs the actual figure at several points to get the accuracy.
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The "wizards" can stick to chevs and small blocks.
Have found an engine builder thanks to Ozze427 and spent several minutes talking to them about my situation.
The "MAN" instead of trying to sell me a Windsor or Cleveland told me to expect 700hp and 600 torque, figures they have met on several FE Builds in the past.
"No replacement for displacement" were his exact words!!
It maybe FE Fantasy at the moment but it's a whole lot better than the Frustration I've been experiencing.
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That's great Ean, glad to hear it's coming together.. Please keep us posted as I will be starting my build with them in the next year or 2 ;)