FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Phil0618 on May 04, 2015, 05:00:34 PM
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Ok, so I am new here. I have an ERA Cobra replica with a Shelby 427 FE Aluminum block pushed out to 468 CID. I have had starter problems. It started with a CVR that was only engaging about 25% onto the flywheel. It chewed up a ring gear. I replaced that and went with a Robb MC starter that worked for a year. I now fear that the Robb MC starter did not have enough torque to last, even though it did for a year. I have a Lakewood Bellhousing.
I need some solid advice as to why the standard starters aren't engaging the flywheel far enough. I do have a block plate. Any advice of what starters you folks run and how they engage would be greatly appreciated. I attached a pic of the car for what its worth. Thanks in advance for any advice.
Phil
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My 427 FE powered Fairmont also uses a Lakewood scattershield, and I have had no issues using a plain old black factory Ford starter. They may be a big larger and heavier (also a bunch cheaper!). No shimming needed, no funny noises, just bolted it on, and forgot about it. I do have a new Powermaster XS Torque clockable starter on the shelf, but at this point, I doubt I will need to make a switch anytime soon.
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I have seen the issue with insufficient tooth engagement on multiple occasions, including with Powermaster starters. Nowadays before I install an aftermarket starter I actuate it on the floor of the shop and measure how far the gear kicks out, then measure from the block plate to the back of the flywheel gear, and see if the measurements match. A lot of times you will only get 1/2 of the teeth engaging. The only solution I have found for an aftermarket starter like this is to mill the front face of the starter down, so that it sticks farther into the bellhousing. That seems to solve the problem.
On the Robb MC starter, I had an early one where the one way clutch gave up; sent it back to Robb and he fixed it and shipped it back at no charge. Its been working fine every since. This is the one with the nose support for the shaft; does your starter have this? For a big engine, I think that is pretty important. The Robb MC starter I have engages all the way across the flywheel teeth, as opposed to the Powermaster, which does not.
You might consider sending your starter back to Robb and see if he can repair it for you; I'll bet that he could. His starter cranks over my 13.4:1 577" SOHC with no problem. I doubt the problem you are seeing is an issue with the starter not having enough torque to last. Probably some other failure, maybe burned brushes or the one way clutch that went out on my first one.
I sure wish I could get away with using a stock starter like Rory, but they have never worked for me on any high compression FE. The stock starters just won't turn the engine over when it is hot. The heat from the headers in an early Mustang chassis, running right by the starter, certainly doesn't help. On the other hand, the Powermaster starters (after modifications) and the Robb MC starter work great.
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Thanks for the advice. I figured I would ship it back just to diagnose the problem.
Phil
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Does your car start fine when the starters worked, at least other than chewing the ring gear? Does it strain when hot? What compression? It sounds like it just may be an issue of one not designed properly and one just gave out early. If you had issues of hot start with both, you may want to look at some other things like timing or wire size.
I've often wondered why sometimes people have bad starting issues and others never have. Like Rory, I've never had a starting issue that wasn't related to timing or wire size/battery condition, running up to 11:1 compression. I've always used stock type starters with the only failures coming after many years, like anything from 10-20 years. I HAVE many times seen replacements fail in short order in my job of being a mechanic. Sometimes as fast as 1-2 days, if not bad from the start (or non-start ;D). Last year I got 3 bad ones in a row...Hencho In Mexico. So like anything, replacements are usually NOT up to the OEM standard.
I would venture an uneducated guess that the increased volume of big CI engines strains them quite a bit more. Still, others have problems with stock type engines after performing upgrades to the start system. It's the 8th wonder...lol
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The Robb MC starter worked well but always sound a little strained. It would start when hot or cold and made no difference. Now it just sounds like grinding. I intend to pull the starter and send it back to Robb MC to diagnose, pull the plugs and rotate the engine to see if I have ring gear damage. Compression is 10:1. Cable size to the starter is 10 gauge.
I am hoping its just a bad starter.
Phil
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I hope you meant 0 gauge and not 10. 10 gauge is only rated for a maximum of 60 amps DC in short term ideal conditions and would hardly work. A minimum of about 4 or 2 gauge should be required.
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Nice car! There was a guy at dyno days here this past Saturday with one, I was all over it until he popped the hood and there sat a Chevy 582...Gag! Lol
How thick is your motor plate, do you still have the oem spacer plate too? Like Jay said, it is probably too far away from the flywheel. They don't engage any too much, even all oem.
Nick
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Sorry gents, meant to say its standard battery cable size. The Robb MC starter had full engagement because I checked it before with it bolted to the block plate and the bell housing off just to be sure. I am just thinking the Robb MC starter did not have enough hp. I will see tonight hopefully. I am just hoping I don't have to pull the transmission, bell housing, etc. to get to the flywheel again.
Phil
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I'm with Rory on this one. My Torino has never had anything other than a stock replacement starter in it. Biggest engine was a 505 inch, 13.2:1 compression, 752 horsepower package. Never had a problem cranking it over. Big power engines often have large cams and low tension ring packages which reduce cranking pressures and loads.
Stock starters will not fit on Shelby or Pond blocks though...
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Barry,
Can you elaborate a little on why the OEM type starters won't work on Shelby or Pond blocks? I am not aware of the block even coming into play as the starter bolts to the bell housing. Is there a different constraint (length?) in the block that drives that?
Phil
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Its the shape of the casting on the sides - the water jacket protrudes out more than stock.
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Barry,
OK, would there be a starter you would recommend?
Phil
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Its the shape of the casting on the sides - the water jacket protrudes out more than stock.
Interesting. I've never seen this mentioned about either block. I thought the Pond blocks were externally identical to factory blocks.
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And I thought I was the only cheapskate that ran stock starters...Nice to know I'm in good company. I've run stock cheapie rebuilt FoMoCo starters in boats as well as my cars. V-drive boats generally need to be started in gear which places an additional load on the starter as well as the 514", 12.5 to 1 C/R tunnel-ram BBF its cranking. Never had a failure, knock on wood. Other things to look at regarding starter failure is make sure you have good quality cables, [read soldered ends] proper sizes cable, welding cable works good as it has more strands of wire for a given guage than parts house battery cables that usually have crimped ends. Quick & dirty test for bad cables is feel where the hot spot is, that is your resistance. Make sure your ground is grounding properly and connected to the engine and not the chassis. Again feel for the hot spot in the cable or terminal. A bad connection/reduced voltage can effect starter engagement just as bad as tooth misalignment, bad gear mesh. Another reason I like cheapie parts house rebuilds is you can usually find them anywhere which is a plus when you are on a road trip. Be a bummer when you need to overnite a new custom starter to you when you get stuck in some Podunk town that rolls the sidewalks up at 8 PM.
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Ok, so I pulled the starter and spark plugs and rotated the crank manually. The ring gear is good. Whew...
Now for the starter issue. I measured the gear engagement to the flywheel on the old starter and it is about 13 mm in (18 mm if measured from the block plate) and engages a total of 10 mm. Of course Robb MC makes a replacement, i.e same model 3001 with the nose all for $299. I however am not so sure I want the same one. It always seemed to strain. I am thinking I could get a CVR or other mini and mill the face of the mounting about 5 mm to get what I need. I just cannot believe Robb MCC is the only choice.
Seems this is an issue with early Shelby blocks. I am just so glad I have no flywheel damage.
Phil
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Can you get Robb to repair the one you've got? That would be the cheapest route, I'll bet...
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And I thought I was the only cheapskate that ran stock starters...Nice to know I'm in good company. I've run stock cheapie rebuilt FoMoCo starters in boats as well as my cars. V-drive boats generally need to be started in gear which places an additional load on the starter as well as the 514", 12.5 to 1 C/R tunnel-ram BBF its cranking. Never had a failure, knock on wood. Other things to look at regarding starter failure is make sure you have good quality cables, [read soldered ends] proper sizes cable, welding cable works good as it has more strands of wire for a given guage than parts house battery cables that usually have crimped ends. Quick & dirty test for bad cables is feel where the hot spot is, that is your resistance. Make sure your ground is grounding properly and connected to the engine and not the chassis. Again feel for the hot spot in the cable or terminal. A bad connection/reduced voltage can effect starter engagement just as bad as tooth misalignment, bad gear mesh. Another reason I like cheapie parts house rebuilds is you can usually find them anywhere which is a plus when you are on a road trip. Be a bummer when you need to overnite a new custom starter to you when you get stuck in some Podunk town that rolls the sidewalks up at 8 PM.
Stock for me too, 10.7:1 489 and 10:1 445, both have been in there for a VERY long time. The Mustang's starter is 15 yrs plus and the truck 7 or 8. Certainly not as much motor as some, but not tired 352s either :)
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Ok, I will probably get grief for spending so much, but I took my old one into Jegs and matched a Dynaforce 9503. Put it in, bumped the engine around a few times and pulled it back out. I then looked at the markings for engagement with the flywheel and it looked great. I did not need the supplied shim. I then put it back in and added a ground strap to the casing (probably was not needed) and fired it up. Let it warm up, shut it down and fired it back up with no issues. So for now all is good. Thanks for all the kind advice here. I am learning from the best of you sages about big block FEs. Now it will just take a while to get my grimy hand prints off the white headers and side pipes. I will wait till it cools down for that!
Phil