FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: YoungOne on April 28, 2015, 12:10:48 AM
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Allow me to to introduce myself. As my moniker says and I am willing to except, I do not have the years of knowledge or experience as Mr. Brown, Mr. Patrick, or any where the renowned Mr. Robotnick. ( I know I can lay it on a little thick) To be honest my experience with the the FE engine family is limited to only 4 in over 30 years how ever each one was instrumental to the joyous perversion of my soul. (getting thick again.) The latest incarnation is a nicely built 397 under the hood of my old mule,(GURDY) and as I sit here, it is a worry to me that some day, whilst under the influence of octane something horrible will happen causing the 54 year old castings to let go and my MAGNIFICENT BEAST will sit idle once again. That, is quite honestly, something to hard to bare. She is my elation and a tie to my youth, back to days when, what ever it was melted as the miles rolled. To go with out her company is something that I have done once, for ten long years she sat, never judging or condemning me for the time it took for her to run again and she shall never again sit helpless. (I wax poetically when it come to her, my wife and kids the rest of the world be damned.) So to protect the 700 purchase price some 22 years ago I would like to see, please, a new set of IRON FE heads.
Why iron? You ask when there are more then a few choices available in aluminum. Why the Edlebrocks are only 1660 from JEG's assembled, or 2500 from Mr Robotnick who dose them right, or better yet his fine casting also at 2500. Inevitably there will be a reference to BBM's at around 2250-2500 as well so what is my problem? OK, here is my problem, I and I believe a large majority of FE builders are in the same boat. I can not just come up with 2500 like that, and, when I get close something happens I.E, roof, water heater, furnace, braces etc. etc. etc. So I run ported C1AE-A's 2.09/1.65 and if Stan Weiss' web page can be trusted, and I believe it can, my little pieces of crap don't do that bad at all. I simply run a little tighter lash on the exhaust side of my 270s and pray I don't suck a valve. So how did I come up with the 2500 to build the C1's? Simple, I didn't, it was more like 50 bucks for the pair at the local U, Pull It. 250 for valves springs and retainers from DSC (Dennis is hard to get a hold of some times but a good guy none the less) and if I could have swung the 500 for CJ heads I would have done that, but I believed I could do as good or better then CJs with a little porting so 800 later for the rebuild and porting on the heads. I traded work for the balance at the machine shop as well 4 sets of other FE heads I had pulled over the years. That I believe is same boat many are in but they either don't have a friend in a machine shop, or a skill they can barter, making getting a good set of heads a lot harder then most think let a lone a stroker kit. Were happy with a 3U crank and C7 rods Probe slugs and C6's C1's C4's or whatever we can get our hands on to put on top. Then we are told. "Should a run Edels cus cost is the same and there better" Better, really? When honest flow benches show they don't flow with enough improvement to make them worth it unless there seriously tweaked and that adds to the coast.
Well why do you think you could afford a set of new Iron heads you might ask. Well if we look at the small block Ford that has been out of production for more then a decade you would find 3 different manufacturers who offer both Aluminum and iron with the iron being much less expensive, nearly 300 less per head, even though the work to make a casting is close to the same. Now you will say the market has enough options and to many more would just flood it. Then why is there Edelbrock, RHS, Dart, World, Brodix, Trickflow, Avenger, AFR, as well those I cant think of casting heads for a dead platform? Because competition brings out the best, that's why a 331 windsor can make 500hp with little more then heads and a cam and we will not talk about the "C" engines. Then you might say there is no real market because most guys want the weight savings of aluminum in there cars. OK point taken, but the last car to get an FE was around 71 and for 5 more years they still ran in the F series truck, so a larger market is in the trucks then in cars and those of us with trucks don't care about 50 more pounds so long as they run.
So here is my idea, and, after all this, pleas, consider it before you call me a fool. Why cant we take the C6 as a platform and go from there, as it has been shown that with stock small bore valve location they can move air when done right. Then put the intake into the hands of Mr. Patrick, the exhaust can go over to Mr. Colvert. Then the piece de resistance put Mr. Robotnic's Chamber in it to tie it all together and bring the timing down. Cast them for the 2.04/1.55 with room to go out to 2.15/1.65. Hold on you say it should have the capacity for 2.2 intake. Well again I do have reasons. The first is they are not meant to be flat out 4.13+ bore size race heads just hipo 4.08 bore heads. Second to get the 2.20 intake in you have to mess around with valve center lines making it a possibility that the cylinder wall could cause valve shrouding, I am sure some one will point out how wrong I am but, 2.15 will fit in the C6 heads along with 1.65 exhaust and the actual curtain area (circumference times lift) difference between the 2.15 and the 2.2 is 97 percent that is not a significant loss. If they were built with a focus on low to mid lift around .650 lift velocity improvements would be significant allowing for a 3.78 stroke engine build even more torque and that is what makes the world go around. Shop out the casting to one of the above listed iron casters I truly don't think you would have to work to hard to prove a market share. Put them out at 550 each bare, don't even offer them built just raw at jobber cost. Mr. Robotnick the biggest complaint that I see about your head is they are in a constant state of back order, one would have to consider what could happen when these hit the market, I doubt they would effect your market share to the negative as I explain below and at the same time your market share would open up with this new product. For me it might take time but 550 I could come up with, while most could do it easier then myself and that would be great because once the word got out they would move. I wouldn't care if the serial numbers didn't match as long as I could set the timing at 36 and get more juice out the old girl and not have to worry that I was going to blow a gasket or suck a valve or wonder where is the next place I can get 105 high led to mix with the 91 in the tank. Finally what would happen to the aluminum head market would it hurt it or help it again I think it would help it for 3 reasons.
One, the very reason why there are still iron heads for Ford, Chrysler and "C" is for the younger guys to get started on and after they get as far as they can go aluminum is the next logical step think of them as gateway heads to a more hard core addiction. Two, the non stroker crowd for example a friend inherited a 1969 f100 swb from his grandfather on his passing. When the engine needed to be rebuilt the heads, some C8's were wore out now yes he did just go and get a used set of D2,s from the wrecking yard but only after getting sticker shock on the Edlebrock heads had there been an option of these heads closer to 1500 out the door he would have jumped. Three those of us who get it. My final example is me a friend with a very nasty 8- second nova running an alcohol injected 410 sprint car engine, all ways asks me. Why did I build and FE when I could have built a 514 for less and got SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much more? My reply. "Its like getting seven the hard way you earn every inch and no one can say didn't earn it
There I explained the best I could my reasoning and I lay my request at your feet. Perhaps it is to great, but, if just one other youngone could experience the feel of a "cammed" 390 with a set of these heads as she roared down some back road some where on some sunny day how could you beat that. (Do you remember?)
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Welcome to the board. I think there's a lot of people out there who would love to see an inexpensive, cast iron aftermarket FE head made available. Unfortunately, the cost savings that it sounds like you are expecting from a cast iron head probably won't be there. I think an aftermarket cast iron FE head would be almost the same price as an aftermarket aluminum head.
Just looking at the Summit web site, and at small block Chevrolet aftermarket heads, the cheapest cast iron head is $300, and the cheapest aluminum head is $415. That $115 difference is basically the difference in the cost of the materials. A small block Chev head weighs about as much as an FE head, so I think that the cost difference for a cast iron vs. aluminum FE head would be about the same.
In terms of tooling, the costs to tool up a cast iron head would be about the same as for an aluminum head. In terms of manufacturing headaches, the cast iron head would be much worse; there are lots of aluminum foundries out there, but cast iron foundries are not as plentiful as they once were, and cast iron is trickier to pour than aluminum. From a manufacturer's standpoint, cast iron is much less attractive as a result. Also, aluminum is much easier to machine than cast iron. There are lots of places that will machine anything in aluminum, but that don't want cast iron in their CNC machines because it is hard on the tooling and abrasive on the machines themselves. You would have to find a CNC shop willing to deal with those issues.
When you figure in the costs of the tooling and the headaches of working with cast iron, I can't imagine that a cast iron FE head would be more than $200 per pair cheaper than a pair of cast aluminum heads. So, why does it ever make sense to make an aftermarket head out of cast iron? One word - Volume. If you are building thousands of heads, the cost savings can be substantial. That's why cast iron heads are available for the most popular engines, like a small block Chevrolet or a small block Ford. Could you sell a thousand or more cast iron FE heads, to justify the investment and make the cost savings attractive? I don't know, but if the price difference is only a couple hundred bucks at a cost per pair of around $1500, I think there would be a signficant incentive to spend the extra money and go with aluminum.
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There are lots of used iron heads still available if you look. Granted, the wrecking yard FEs are getting sparse especially when scrap prices are high. But there are other sources such as private hoarders such as myself. I have collected about 16-17[?] sets of common FE heads such as EDCs, C1s, C4s, C6s, C8s, D2s and some that aren't as common. So many I will never use all I have in this lifetime or even into the next. Also as a hardcore Ford guy that is into FEs and 385 series engines these parts just seem to fall out of the sky for me as other car guys in my area know I collect this stuff. So as a result most parts are free, just "get 'em outta hear, I'm tired of tripping over this junk" The last 3 or 4 sets of FE heads were free for the taking, just had to pick them up. A couple of sets were even delivered for me. Guys move and don't want to take the parts with them. Other guys die off and the widow wants the garage cleaned out [That will be my wife when I kick the bucket] Even still other guys change projects and accumulated parts are no longer needed, not to speak of the guys who just plain quit and dump their inventory. With all the vintage iron still out there I don't see a market for a new "replacement" iron head when aluminum is so dominate.
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Youngone,
Where are you at.
If you were local to me, I'd pretty much give you a set of D2TE heads, just cuz.
I'm sure others would feel the same way.
I personally would never buy a set of iron heads. The only reason I could even see running a set would be for originality sake in a Factory 428 CJ car or something along those lines.
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Or rare heads like Tunnel Ports or Hi-Risers. Most FE heads are a dime a dozen today.
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Welcome
What is "GURDY"?
There was a time when a new 427 iron block was only a pipe dream.
Nothing wrong with a dream.
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What is Gurdy?
I am going to guess; a name used to show affection of something old, as in a vehicle, rifle, any old keepsake. Like great grandma Gertrude or Girtie..... :)
Nick
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Or rare heads like Tunnel Ports or Hi-Risers. Most FE heads are a dime a dozen today.
HEY, don't forget Medium-Riser heads ;D There are a handful of people like me who are just stubborn and like to run old iron, just to prove you don't have to have modern stuff to have a car or truck that runs great and is lots of fun :)
Most people find it hard to believe I still run bone stock iron MR heads and a factory steel crank in my original block 427 with a factory intake and carb set-up. How many stock stroke all iron 427s do you see these days? Except for the distributor, when I open my hood, all you see is original Ford parts. That, by itself, is pretty cool to see, in my opinion.
But I agree, reproducing iron heads is not feasible or cost effective when people would rather have aluminum.
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Scotia, Gurdy is a not to pretty 1970 f250 and my pride and joy. Jay I understand the tooling aspect of things and I will agree that iron is harder to work so why is it that aluminum is so spendy when it is easier to pour and work and the tooling is already there? Also could you afford to put out 30% of your yearly pay to build an engine for one of your cars? I couldn't I only spent 10000 a mere 20% and it was all I could afford for a 397 but I got the best I could for what I had. Blue thunder intake Dove roller rockers Ross pistons Akerly/Child rings Ferrea valves 209/165 and for each piece I busted my Butt swinging my hammer through the week and scrounging parts on the week end and I would not trade it for the world. But what if I could have saved a couple hundred bucks and could be able to run a little less advance for a more fuel friendly engine as a bonus. A new set of modern heads out of iron could do that. RJP you see I too hoard parts, at my peak I had 3 sets of C1's 2 of C6's 3 of C4's 3 of C7's 5 blocks 8 cranks C1, and C3's 2U's and my list went on. Selling these parts paid the bills from time to time when my hammer was put away for the winter as well paid for part of the work done on my mill but that is not the point you see most of the old school heads need 40* advance and are not to fuel friendly Mr. Robotnics head only need 36* that is a lot better on the fuel and more power with out having to give up some compression. Drew thanks but no, as I keep trying to say is let the old stuff sit and be used by those who want to, and the new stuff. 1 Is out of my price rang 2 is really set up for the 4.13 bore, for example the Ed's intake's are move out .060 out but that can cause a shrouding issue on a 4.08 bore. And my C1's did not need to be moved to get 2.09's in them and ported flow close to what Ed's Ad's say. So it is very possible to put better valve into a standard bore and get good flow with out the shrouding issue ad the ability to bring the timing down and you too would be a believer in iron. So I guess if it cant be done why not a less expensive (NOT CHEAP) set of heads for the 4.05 bore set up with low to mid lift .650 and less with volume and velocity as the key for less than 1500 bare say 1000 could it be done? Or better yet would it when people are programmed to pay 1500 a set? And Jay that is why I think it is a good and viable Idea, the market is there we have new players coming in all the time why not make room for the little guy there who built the FE in the beginning
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Jay I understand the tooling aspect of things and I will agree that iron is harder to work so why is it that aluminum is so spendy when it is easier to pour and work and the tooling is already there?
The difference is in the cost of the material itself; aluminum is a lot more expensive than cast iron. Also, you can't use cast iron tooling to build aluminum heads, and vice versa. I think if someone were to build cast iron aftermarket FE heads, they might cost $1300 a set, instead of the $1500 a set for aluminum. To me, the $200 savings wouldn't be worth the extra weight you'd carry around with the cast iron. JMO, of course :D
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Exactly! In your instance I can see that the extra weight would be the primary consideration, where in my situation budget is what is called a major constraint and 200 is a set of decent intake and exhaust valves. Let say the price could be 600 bare, a little trade here and there and within a year I could get a set. We all know how much work has to go into the old stuff which drive up the total cost but new heads do not need as much work especially with fast as cast as they say now days. So now you have 1200 for heads 200 for valves 125 for springs locks retainers from DSC and a 300 dollar valve job a cartridge roll home port job (One of the old Iron porters could put out a dvd for the DIY crowd for the 2.04 and 2.09 valve with enough left on the table for the 2.15 to be ported professionally to be given with a purchase of a pair heads or sold for 50 bucks think about it) and your down the road with a set of heads that will last longer then your long block for under 2 grand that is a win, win.
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We all know how much work has to go into the old stuff which drive up the total cost but new heads do not need as much work especially with fast as cast as they say now days.
That statement is incorrect. Almost every bit of machine work needs to be done, or re-done, on a set of new heads as well as old heads. New heads and blocks are machined, but only to a given tolerance for production. They will be useable, but they will not be to the standards that many of us prefer them. They need to be cut/trued, valve seats should be done over for optimum service and performance. Guides will need to be checked and adjusted because a good build needs better tolerances than new parts come with, and what most of us expect and want. New parts do not come perfect and this has been the proven truth from day one. Unless you just want a basic generic rebuild, they all need springs, valves, keepers etc to match the cam and engine they are being built for, so the price is all the same as far as that goes. Many a people have bolted on out-of-the-box heads only to have problems down the road.
That's often why people go with modern heads, if you're going to have all that work and expense into an old set of heads, you may as well step up to a modern chamber with the detonation advantages of aluminum.
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Many a people have bolted on out-of-the-box heads only to have problems down the road.
I can't agree with that statement.
You can pull a set of Ed's out of the box, give them a look over to make sure all the parts are where they should be.
Bolt them on. And go racing. If you have a problem with them I'm pretty sure Vic will want to know.
They make an outstanding product for a reasonable cost and have proven to be very reliable.
Edelbrock's intake and head package is pretty hard to beat for cost and durability.
Bolt on a 390 short block and make 400 plus HP with enough cam of course.
This not even my opinion, it has been tested by Barry R.
Edit: found it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpD7fpKWpXw
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Seems our newest poster is determined to have someone cast up new iron FE heads. I say, go for it. ...even though it's quite unlikely IMO that will ever happen.
That said, I'll suggest you repeat your desires to the folks at BBM, Bear Block Motors, and implore them to start making those iron heads as no one here is in a position to do so nor desires the job.
Hey, they may even start some test marketing on various Ford sites by posting, especially from a brand new website poster, the apparent 'need' for said iron heads to see if demand would warrant such a head. ;) ;) ;)
http://bearblockmotors.com/bbm-ford-fe-cylinder-heads/
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It's a fresh idea but not a real money maker in my opinion. The FE world is literally full of iron heads these days because of the aftermarket aluminum heads. Everybody has a set or two of iron heads stashed. It would be hard for me to justify the expense in manufacturing new iron heads for this reason alone. Not to mention the ease of machining, the weight savings, and the heat transfer qualities of aluminum.
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Many a people have bolted on out-of-the-box heads only to have problems down the road.
I can't agree with that statement.
You can pull a set of Ed's out of the box, give them a look over to make sure all the parts are where they should be.
Bolt them on. And go racing. If you have a problem with them I'm pretty sure Vic will want to know.
They make an outstanding product for a reasonable cost and have proven to be very reliable.
Edelbrock's intake and head package is pretty hard to beat for cost and durability.
Bolt on a 390 short block and make 400 plus HP with enough cam of course.
This not even my opinion, it has been tested by Barry R.
Edit: found it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpD7fpKWpXw
Howie, Edelbrock has made many small changes over the years. Surely you've seen and heard enough guys from the forums who have pulled/stripped rocker stand threads? True, they've worked out most of these issues, but earlier heads should be reworked before using.
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Well this post is two days old and all ready there has been close to 400 views and to be fair this is the premier FE website based mainly on performance and yet people came here to look in hope to learn something new. Agreed I am tilting at windmills but as you can see I am not the only one, and let me lay to rest the assumption that I am market probing. I have NO affiliation with any manufacture unless I have built there buildings. So what would it take to be taken seriously 1000 people interested 10,000 or a 100,000 people? CJ to an extent I agree the new stuff has to be gone through and for that so dose the aluminum so that balances out. The benefit of a modern design and lower price is what I think people would appreciate. Scotia if the Edelbrocks are so good why do people I.E Mr. Robotnick since you use him as a reference replace the valves to 2.20 then the guide to run the 11/32 stems and port them, Keith Kraft when you buy his heads he tries to sell the ported version. The answer is that the Aluminum heads DO NEED work to run. Yes you can bolt on the Edelbrokcs out of the box and get 400 hp you can also do the same with a set of ported Iron or a set of CJ heads but that is not what I am trying to get at. My point is World Products, Dart, and RHS all make a decent performance heads in aluminum and in iron, if there was no market for the irons large company's like them would not sell them, and I believe there is an equally large market in our chosen platform. Don't believe me then help me out to fix my thinking. How about some of you guys post a survey on some of the other boards I tried to get on a few but the time i would have to wait to post is quite long lets see how it turns out.
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I always assumed World and Dart made cast iron heads for those that need iron heads for rules based motorsports.
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I think you are correct Drew as most circle track associations do require cast iron heads, hence even Ford made the N series Windsor head available and 'rules' compliant. Note all the racing associations that have pre-approved it.
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Ford-Racing-N351-Sportsman-Cast-Iron-Heads,1748.html
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How about some of you guys post a survey on some of the other boards I tried to get on a few but the time i would have to wait to post is quite long lets see how it turns out.
Perhaps Jay can convert this thread into one of those cool polls that I've seen him do in the past.
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True, the major players in the aftermarket arena offer iron heads but for their major selling engine families such as SBC, BBC, SBF & SBM . Some as a direct replacement head, some to meet rules of the many racing bodies that require "stock" iron head for class racing and to fill a need when OEM casting got used up and that supply has dried up. The FE is more a nitch market that doesn't fall into any category where iron heads are required for any class racing, at least none that I'm aware of...Besides if an FE were to dominate in any class the powers-that-be would make rule changes to handicap the FE. Been done many times in the past. Ask NHRA or NASCAR, for some reason they cannot stand to see a Ford win. On the other side of the coin it would be a major financial loss for someone like Dart or AFR to go to the trouble and expense to invest, design, develop and bring to market a product just to watch the sanctioning bodies outlaw it. The whole project then goes into the crapper.
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That's easy to answer.
We want 1000 HP. ::)
There is no shortage of iron FE heads if you need some.
There has always been a shortage of High Performance FE stuff. It just was not made in large volumes
and the one real HP head that was "the CJ head" still commands a premium price.
Right now today there is a flood of HP FE stuff that the FE community has never seen before.
Blocks and heads and intakes and cranks a plenty.
It's a miracle. ;)
Hot Rodding FE's will never be a poor mans game though.
That's why they are few and far between.
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RJP, thank you, that is the information I was looking for, and it stands to reason that making a head the sanctioning body would deem unfair would not make sense, but, Pond make a heads that is super stock legal Edelbrock the same and not to mention Dove. As matter of fact Dove did at one time cast the F5WE in iron but no longer. So then there is still the option, with the proviso that they garner a appropriate designation to say they are with boundary's I.E Stock valve location port dimensions and again why not take the C6 head or CJ head and keep there basic layout with a few refinement such a chamber design I believe they would fit right in.
Gentlemen, This has been more enlightening then I expected in such a short time, most of you stating your opinion as to why it wont happen. All I am asking is give it a chance. If I knew how to get a hold of the guys at Dart, World, or RHS' and I mean some one who will listen and not just just blow me off I would carry this to the end. Machoneman you called me determined. THANK YOU! I can not think of a better compliment and yes I will contact BBM. But before I go for the night (gotta help the boy with his model and the girl wants to play catch) let me ask Jay and Mr. Robotnick one question since as most are saying the FE market is full. Why did you do it? Jay, Edelbrock makes a fine intake as do others. And Mr. Robotnick, Edelbrock makes a fine set of heads don't they and Blue Thunder, Pond, Dove do too. So...... Why?
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How about some of you guys post a survey on some of the other boards I tried to get on a few but the time i would have to wait to post is quite long lets see how it turns out.
Perhaps Jay can convert this thread into one of those cool polls that I've seen him do in the past.
Great idea, Kevin! The Poll is up. I don't know if I'm in the ballpark on price for some of the options or not; for example, I really don't know what a BBM head costs with good valves and springs, but I can see the Survival heads on ebay and the Edelbrock heads on Summit's web site, so those at least are in the ballpark...
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But before I go for the night (gotta help the boy with his model and the girl wants to play catch) let me ask Jay and Mr. Robotnick one question since as most are saying the FE market is full. Why did you do it? Jay, Edelbrock makes a fine intake as do others. And Mr. Robotnick, Edelbrock makes a fine set of heads don't they and Blue Thunder, Pond, Dove do too. So...... Why?
I did the intake adapters to fulfill a perceived need in the market. I was watching ebay when time after time, the old PSE intake adapters would come up for sale and go for exorbitant amounts of money. I figured that based on that, if I could bring an equivalent product to market for around $500 I could sell at least 100 of them. Then, I talked to the pattern and foundry shops and got some quotes, and figured that with the pattern investment I could break even by making 100 and selling them at $469. Lastly, I wanted to be able to have the capability of casting my own parts, and this was a good, fairly low risk way to go about it.
Now, having gone through it, I think I would think twice about doing it again. The foundries have been very difficult to work with; they either want to raise the price after the first few castings, or they deliver so slowly that its tough to get the product out. I'm about to start work with my third foundry on this project, and hopefully they will work out better than the first two, but that remains to be seen. Along the way I've had to raise the price of the intake adapters, which I really didn't want to do, and it will be a total of around 125 before I finally break even. Of course, if I can keep selling a few after that it might be a good source of supplemental income, but anybody who is looking at making a living on manufacturing FE parts is going to be eating a lot of Ramen noodles for dinner ;D
One really priceless thing that has come out of this for me is that if I wanted to do, for example, my own set of aluminum heads, or my own aluminum block, or some other off-the-wall aluminum casting, I'd know exactly what I was in for. That is really, really helpful when I start thinking about stretching the FE envelope where no man has gone before... 8)
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I can answer my part of the question...
We were modifying Edelbrock heads every week to reach the power levels desired for our 445 stroker engines. Most guys building these wanted to see somewhere around 500HP, and that was simply beyond what an "off the shelf" Edelbrock head would accommodate. I needed an east to install and finish 500-600HP capable head that used factory rocker mountings, factory style and position 428CJ exhaust pattern, factory style 427 MR (Fel-Pro 1247) sized intake ports.
The Blue Thunder head is absolutely a great race head - but with raised exhaust ports, a large cross section intake port, and the need for a dedicated T&D rocker system it was not the "right part" for this application.
I have no experience with the Pond heads, but at the time it appeared they were targeted toward 427 Stock/Super Stock racers, with a large chamber volume and conventional style ports. Very cool and a needed item - but again not what I required.
Some of the Dove parts might have been up to the task, but availability has always been challenging on those.
Without getting too far into a sales pitch, my project was to get as many modern features into the traditional FE envelope as possible without impacting reverse compatibility with pre-existing intakes, exhausts, and rockers. The chamber design is literally decades ahead of anything else that was available, with a very strong LS/Yates influence. The guy that did the original model was highly involved in designing the latest LS heads on the market. Intake ports were radically improved with only a nominal increase in volume or cross section. I have them cast under contract at Edelbrock - in part because I was pretty much terrified of the foundry issues Jay has expounded upon.
The BBM parts appear to target the same market as mine do. They did not exist when I began my development. I had a very early pair that resembled an Edelbrock part - so I did not consider them to be a viable option at the time. Since then Rob at Blue Oval partnered with them to redesign the part and it looks much improved. The parts were developed in parallel - nothing was "taken" or copied from anybody else. I consider mine to be better - they think their's are better. Such is the nature of a competitive market. I have no idea why they chose an FE as their initial US market entry.
On a financial basis I figured my payback based on my own internal usage. In retrospect the experience mirrors Jay's in that the cost was higher and the challenges greater than anticipated. The time management and financial stress that it entailed has had me questioning my choices several times. But I have sold well over a hundred pair of heads, which carries a certain degree of personal pride - not many guys have made their own "part" and gotten it into the marketplace.
I hope that helps...
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The next question becomes: which head?
HR's and TP's would seem to be out as both have limited intakes and are certainly more race oriented, hence a smaller market.
It would seem a MR or LR head then. Even then, there are a myriad of questions on the chamber (near stock or modern), chamber cc's, valve stem sizes, valve head sizes, spark plug size and on and on. Perhaps a mirror of Barry's head or BBM's?
So many questions........
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Having ported all of these heads mentioned, I feel there is still a need for a port that is more oval and raised a small amount, but could still be made to work with available MR style intakes. It would need a different approach to the short turn, much like a Pro Port Edelbrock that some have ported. Barry's head if raised another .400" all the way to the valve seat would come very close, but would need a 4.160" combustion chamber before tweaking. A smaller oval port with a 2.125" intake valve would be a good place to start for a super fast velocity style head. Also, the exhaust valve could be made smaller if the port was reshaped a little more, and the flow could be made to be comparable to the Yates/CHI style heads. Joe-JDC
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On a financial basis I figured my payback based on my own internal usage. In retrospect the experience mirrors Jay's in that the cost was higher and the challenges greater than anticipated. The time management and financial stress that it entailed has had me questioning my choices several times. But I have sold well over a hundred pair of heads, which carries a certain degree of personal pride - not many guys have made their own "part" and gotten it into the marketplace.
I hope that helps...
Making your own part, and bringing it to market, means a lot to me too; that is one positive I forgot to mention...
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Barry Thanks for the response. Please don't think I mean any disrespect to any one on this board with my constant questions. The reason I ask is for the same you and Jay brought your products to market. You both perceived a need, Jay's intake is terrific I saw a PSE at Garrett Machine once when I was visiting and asked about it. All he said was "You don't need that." that was the end of the discussion. So Jay I hope you do well. For my self I must admit there is an amount of emotion behind my drive and honestly it is the reason I hope something comes of this. I want that goofy kid that didn't fit to well in school who works all week and scrounges parts on the week end, and the fellow who has a family to feed to have options other then 40 years old castings, or the high cost of aluminum.
Barry I talked to you once about your head and Mr. Patrick about the BBM's they are just to much, if, I and a lot of others had the where with all perhaps we would not be having this discussion, but then again we probably would. Now as a carpenter I don't do to bad, I love what I do, being able to bring something out of the ground and say "I did that" is one of my greatest pleasures its the bringing something to market part that i share wit both of you. That and a well earned passion for this platform, as I stated it is my elation an escape when life gets a little hard a far better addiction then anything else I can think of. And to be honest this discussion only spurs me on. So let me ask you. 'IF' there was a Iron FE casting that with 2.04 valves flowed like the cj with 2.09 and with the some of the mods Joe mentioned but designed not to go into the 300's fully preped coupled with a fast burn chamber was on the market that you as a dealer could sell for under 2k. And lets say 'Joe blue collar wanted a mild rebuild that wouldn't need premium would you offer it? Or would you prefer to take a set of 40+ year old casting fix the broken exhaust bolts mill the exhaust side down, mill the intake side, replace guides, seats ect. ect.
Finally to all those who have not yet sided with me yet. you say no but 600 plus looking say maybe. And be honest if you were building old blue to pull your drag car or boat, trailer. would you want a set of heads that made 1000s of horsepower or one's that put the power where you needed it? We both know the answer :)
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I will probably never run a Iron head on a FE again unless its some sort of numbers matching build...
It has nothing to do with the cost....The problem is unleaded fuel..
My 427 Iron heads were destroyed in 17,000 miles..
Putting hardened seats in FE heads is touch and go as it is as support for the seat is very limited..Add a wack of spring pressure and its just not worth it...
What is the plan for hardened seats in these hypothetical new Iron castings ????
Cory
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I will probably never run a Iron head on a FE again unless its some sort of numbers matching build...
It has nothing to do with the cost....The problem is unleaded fuel..
My 427 Iron heads were destroyed in 17,000 miles..
Cory
Cory, that's why you have to up the compression until you need some leaded race fuel. ;D I mix 50/50 93 octane and Turbo Blue leaded 110 octane. Hopefully that will help my iron MR heads last. In my 390 with C4 heads, I just had hardened seats put in the exhaust. I had the problem of cutting away part of the support when it was machined for the seats, but I had a very good Ford guy that did the work and have not had any issues in the 20 years that it's been together.
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Finally to all those who have not yet sided with me yet. you say no but 600 plus looking say maybe. And be honest if you were building old blue to pull your drag car or boat, trailer. would you want a set of heads that made 1000s of horsepower or one's that put the power where you needed it? We both know the answer :)
Not sided with you "yet"? Seeing as how iron heads have only 1 vote so far, and I assume that's yours, you've got a long way to go before everyone sides with you ;D
Honestly, like was already mentioned, if I wanted iron heads, I'd use some tried and true factory heads. With all the aluminum floating around now, iron heads are not hard to come by. Most guys can't even sell them anymore unless they're something rare.
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I could add the lead additive which is what I will be doing with the little 289 car..I really didn't think unleaded fuel would kill the heads that fast...FE's seem to be the worse...
Never seen a CJ head that doesn't have sunken exhaust valves/seats...That includes the set on the CJ I am doing right now....Cory
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sorry guys cant play tonight its family night :'(
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if they were an exact med riser copy in cast iron I would buy a set
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Cory, unbeknownst to you, you have made my point. I am the guy who runs with 190 psi cranking pressure, and has to run 25% 110 high lead to keep my heads happy, then when I haven't, I wound up changing head gaskets. But with a set of fast burn heads and a little lower compression I would have better power and not NEED 110 just to go get milk. Your question and Fastbacks comments about the exhaust seat is my other concern, and again the point for a new set of heads. While I now little of the dynamics of an internal combustion engine, I have looked at cross section of a few of the FE heads and think I have come up with some answers. 'If' I could get a set of heads cast I would like to see more material under the exhaust valve like the D2 casting, there is enough meat there to allow for the 1.65 exhaust solving that problem. Also I would like to raise the exhaust port .100 above the early casting like the C1's and C4's as long as the exhaust flange was raised in conjunction. I do not believe this would cause a clearance issue. Then like Joe stated I would like to see the intake floor raised, I am not sure about .400 but maybe .150-.200 above the CJ or med riser floor. Then to complement it lowering the roof of the chamber. Scoot Cook motor sports in Australia is doing some neat things with the Cleveland heads with lowering the roof and I think it could apply to the FE. Lastly and this is the part I am least sure of, is altering the valve angle, 1/2-1 degree as long as it stayed within the sweep of the stock rocker location. Put that into a high swirl double quench chamber and you would really have something.
So feadam can you be put down as one who is for it? than thank you. CJ that's 2 on my side ;D.
CJ, Me thinks though doth protest to much. And that deep with in you there is a little gremlin that is rooting for me all the way. ;) Well one cant be to cautious and siding with a crack pot idea might not be in your best interest but thanks I like sparing with you.
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CJ, Me thinks though doth protest to much. And that deep with in you there is a little gremlin that is rooting for me all the way. ;) Well one cant be to cautious and siding with a crack pot idea might not be in your best interest but thanks I like sparing with you.
Umm, you're talking to a guy who has 4 driving FE engined vehicles and not one of them has an aluminum head on it. :P
If you can get a head produced, I'm all for it. But it's not us you have to convince, it's the guy with $150,000 laying around :)
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CJ. That is what I am trying to do, I have E.mailed a few retailers of FE parts to look in on this debate, and if I can allay some of there fears by having a lively and friendly discussion with the members of this forum such as yourself, and get ones such as Joe-JDC to offer technical information. Along with Mr.Robotnick and Mr. Brown offering there point of view as ones who HAVE introduced new products plus the fact that they 1) Are selling and 2) Making a profit. Then perhaps they will in turn inform there suppliers who in turn might get involved. I think that the FE platform has proven that it is here to stay and that there are people who will do what ever it take to keep it going. The people like Joe, who ports the stuff to Barry who casts and sells it to Jay who finds a small niche part and makes it go, to you and me in a small way who run it and have no qualms about standing up and defending with all we have. So every on PLEASE keep it coming I will do my best to counter any argument you put before me because it might work and I hope it dose.
On a side note Barry you stated something about one of the fellows at Genesis is making a go could you PM me his info if you have it. Again this is my opinion but I 'think' an affordable Iron head would be just what he would need to keep the bread and butter coming seeing that he cast iron all ready?
lastly how do I add a picture. "DOH!"
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Pictures are always good. ;)
As per Jay's instructions:
There are two ways to add photos to your messages. When composing a message you can click the "Additional Options" link at the bottom of the message composer window, and put a file location from your computer into the "attach" box. The photo will appear at the bottom of your message. You can also embed photos in your message, but in order to do so the pictures must be hosted on an internet site. One site that is free and works well for this is photobucket.com. After joining this site and confirming your email address, you can log in and upload your photos to your Photobucket account. After uploading you can click on a photo and a box will appear below it that has several selections for copying and pasting a link to the photo. Click on the img code line to copy the link, and paste it into your message here. Other hosting services for photos can be used in the same fashion. You can also post a picture directly from any web location using the web location surrounded by image tags (http://web location.jpg, where "web location.jpg" is where your photo can be found on the internet).
See Rules
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=2.0
I like the photobucket way as everyone can see what's going on.
Even the lurkers.
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For the sake of beating a dead horse and keeping this alive, aluminum heads are available for the ford 200 6 along with a detachable aluminum intake. I find it hard to believe that there is enough market for them yet there seems to be. So a cast iron aftermarket fe head doesn't seem so far fetched. It's just a matter of convincing the right people/ person. I'd personally love to see it. Some might not understand what a $200 dallor savings means to an average joe but I can tell you that being 30 and working for the last 15 years just so I can drive my first car for the first time a $200 savings on a single item (pair) helps. Jmo.
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yeah... but if you are that strapped for money, why not just get a set of factory iron heads?
Seems like I could get factory D2TE heads for $200 all day long that are good enough that I could take them apart, clean them and run them.
If you are that strapped, post on this site that you need a set of factory iron heads in good condition rebuilt on a budget.
I'm sure someone (like myself) would ship some old heads to a builder for you and they'd probably be finished for a couple franklins total.
I'm also sure that some of our esteemed FE professional builders pull iron heads off all the time that are in good shape and haul them to the scrap yard. They'd be happy to toss them your way.
I personally (and it seems the poll reflects the same) would want a head more like the Felony or BBM head. Something that has good horsepower potential with little work, has a modern chamber, and good air velocity for general street usage. THAT is where the real gap in availability has been historically.
Along the same lines, I'd sooner see more effort put into a cheap, available off the shelf 427 block, than annoy someone into making reproduction 390 blocks. Why bother having them cast a 390 block, when I can still find them for $250 in perfect condition?
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Here Matt. I made a post in the classifieds:
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=2673.msg26206#msg26206
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Matt we are in the same boat. :( However, there is hope as Jay's survey shows the Iron heads pulling away from the ED'S ;D. Mr. Robotniks and the BBM's will win out I am sure, but that is not where I want to go. Drew if you noticed his post and I am assuming here, but he was referencing an affordable Performance head. NOT a Race head. Mr. Robotnik stated that the ED's at there price point are a good stock replacement, not a race head. Which is why he moved on to his own head. Now I will consed that IF the last year Ford sold the FE format was 2000 this would be a moot discussion. However. when Ford changed castings within the year (Thus the reason for so many different 427 LR castings I.E. C3AE-D, G, H, J) for the FE it was for race development. Now if they had that kept up to this day we would have truly something spectacular and are only getting closer after people like Mr.Robotnik and A.T Francis have pushed the envelope. This is a good thing it has exposed the FE to a new generation.
But the last casting development was finished what 43 years ago? So the young guys have again old iron that while it can be ported to do well would cost as much as the Ed's to run or for a mere $800 more a set of real performers only a weeks pay at 25/hr hope you don't have any bills. If you ask me that sounds unfair. Not to say those that WANT to run the old stuff should buy a set of new Irons nor should those who can afford and want to run the top shelf fell guilty. Rather an in between, a real in between. You mention an affordable 427 block, why? When most of those who buy them expect to pay 5000+ after it is all said and done? It is the accepted going price isn't it? I will tell you why. You don't got it, and you don't want to go and sleeve a used up block just in hopes it will run. But you say with the same breath we don't need something that would make this hobby more affordable to the younger crowd. Or do you like it when the kid down the street dose little more then bolts a $1500 turbo onto his Honda 18b and walks you? Not to mention gets betters gas mileage and can afford to run his "hotrod" and you cant. Well to be honest I boils my buttons and I would rather see him in a Chevy but they too are getting pricey.
So lets keep this going, how about we step this up and get into a technical discussion. What is wrong with the factory heads? Where are they the strongest and where do they need help? What would you change? Joe-JDC mentioned what he would like to see and I did too. CJ you run the old Iron so you have to have an idea / opinion or two? Mr. Robotnik (Sorry about the miss spell before I got a hard name as well you should have called me on it I would have understood sorry.) When you see stock heads where do you do the most work? (Not asking for trade secrets.)
Thanks for all the reply's so far and thanks for putting up with me :)
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Doug Mr Med Riser in a Mustang -- I could not put a finger on anything other then MRs were 1965-67, but do Med Riser's have exhaust flanges compatible with the 428CJ vert & diagonal bolt arrangements? ..... Obviously you could I presume use vertical only bolts in a Mustang but that could be cause for suicide. Can MRs be drilled for CJ flanges?
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A few other things to consider.
There won't likely be a shortage of original FE heads as cores anytime soon. There are those who buy them by the pallet load, rebuild them and often add LR/CJ valves in the process, then sell them at very reasonable prices. Are they true performance head, no not really, but better than stock.
Then there is the new aluminum heads coming out of China from Speedmaster. While quality has been questioned, at the price I'm sure they will grab a good chunk of the budget market you are looking at.
Last, I don't think its quite fair to consider the Ed head as a stock replacement for the standard FE head. It is a step above almost all factory heads, and a definite performance boost over the more common 390 heads.
Me personally, I use early iron for originality. If I was building anything more I would be calling Barry for a set of his.
One questions for the industry guys. Are there any aftermarket iron heads made here in the US? I know there has been talk of the difficulty in getting the cast iron blocks done, and I'm sure that would carry over to heads as well.
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You mention an affordable 427 block, why? When most of those who buy them expect to pay 5000+ after it is all said and done? It is the accepted going price isn't it? I will tell you why. You don't got it, and you don't want to go and sleeve a used up block just in hopes it will run. But you say with the same breath we don't need something that would make this hobby more affordable to the younger crowd.
YoungOne, I am going to try to be really tender here in how I speak.... it is not my normal tone, but I really and truly do not want you to be offended.
Your reading comprehension is pretty much at a third grade level if the above is what you gathered from my previous post. My example with the 427 block wasn't anything about what you are talking about. If someone is going to make anything for the FE, they should be making something that is not available. This is why I said, "Why bother having them cast a 390 block, when I can still find them for $250 in perfect condition?"
Trying to compare a used 427 block to a set of C8 cylinder heads is absurd.
You speak about the "younger generation" (which by the way, includes me) not having any money, but then talk about having new iron heads cast for sale. If you were really financially strapped, you would be rebuilding factory iron heads like everyone else. It's not that expensive or complicated.
I was considering BBM and Felony heads as performance heads, I do not consider them race only heads. If you are wanting Barry to have Iron versions of the Felony head, I think you may be very sad to see that they would most likely cost the same or more than the Aluminum ones.
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Cast a new bare D5TZ-6049-A FT head for $300. Not the C6 casting you specified but its out there.
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Drew I bilieve you may have misinterpreted my post. My main point was just because there may be a precieved notion that there is no market doesn't mean it's true. The 6 cylinder head and intake was an example the 331 and 347 strokers is another that comes to mind. That makes no sense to me when you could start at 351 at the same price but those stroker kits are very popular. Saving some cash is just a side note that helps. I just think it's better to keep all options open. to each there own. I know of plenty stubborn old men who refuse to run aluminum heads because they still fear them warping these aren't fe guys but people can find a million reasons to do something a different way than the next guy for his own reasons.
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Drew, From the offset I have wanted to know why there are no new Iron alternative for the FE. When Dart, World, and RHS, along with others volume alloy casters, cast Iron counterparts for there SB Ford, Chevy, Chrysler heads. These are large company's that, as some have stated cast iron to satisfy sanction body's for certain motorsports. However that is not there only market. Many buy them because they work good and do not cost an arm and a leg. I sincerely believe that they could do the same for the FE. However just recasting the C1's I run or C4 's and C'6s others would make no sense. Which is why I asked about a newly designed fast burn FE head one that works good but doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
You run the old Iron? Which? Like I said I run a nice set of Ported C1's, the cost to build is around 1700 from Garrett Machine about the same as the ED's from JEGS but I did it one piece at a time and Mike worked with me. If I had wanted a set of CJ's done up they would have been around 2500 from Mike, or Tom Lucas at FE Specialty's, or a few other builders which is why I did not do a set, and why I wont do a set of BBM's or FElony heads. 2500 is out of my ball park.
Now if you, me, or someone else could pick up a set of new iron that worked somewhere between the FElonies and stock for around 550-600 each bare from a reputable source that would be a good thing all around. Better yet some one who is set up to cast 427 blocks they have the equipment and know how, all they would need is a new design and there are enough people to come up with a new head, not to mention other heads with quality's we could incorporate (Chevy LS platform wasn't the first to have a tall narrow port) If and again it is a big if such a company did they could somewhat offset the cost of the blocks. I think this would be the best option.
So why am I so passionate about this, for Pete's sake we do have a whopping number of 3 company's that make heads for small bore engines. well in the 8 days since this post started there have been 1463 people who have looked at this thread it you take the 38 members who voted so far and quadruple it that is 152 views that means 1313 people have looked at this thread. That is on average 163 additonal people a day. If (I know another one ;) ) only 5 percent would buy that is 8 people a day that is a definite market. Even if it was only 1 percent bought a pair a week that is 84 pairs a year x 600 that is 50k in the first year. After that if you want to run the old stuff all the power to you, if you want to run BBM"s or the like, more power to you. I hope you buy FElony and put the money where it should go. For me I would run the fast burn irons for around 1500 +/- a set, get 450+ hp not have to buy race gas to keep from sucking a valve and be more the merrier.
Chris I looked up the D5tz-6049-a and got a distributor I know the 6049 means a cylinder head but that is what I got.
Qikbbstang, I am not sure but the exhaust port would be critical and making it so vert and horizontal header mounting was possible would help install in the narrower shock tower cars.
BH107, Your right we have quite a few FE heads available, around here the early ones are getting harder to find. Probably because the people you mentioned who are picking them up by the pallet load see a market. Like my dad or older brother who simply want it to run. For them, these are perfect.
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By the way If there was a fourth option to vote for factory heads I probably would have voted for it. I love the nostalgic factor. And I'll never ask for or want something for free!!!!
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The correct part number: D6TZ-6049-A.
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Drew I bilieve you may have misinterpreted my post. My main point was just because there may be a precieved notion that there is no market doesn't mean it's true. The 6 cylinder head and intake was an example the 331 and 347 strokers is another that comes to mind. That makes no sense to me when you could start at 351 at the same price but those stroker kits are very popular.
Hehe.... a 347 stroker is an entirely different block than a 351. I'd rather have a 347 than a 351 just for the shorter block, light rotating weight, etc etc. So not really an apples to apples deal.
YoungOne,
Yes, I have run several iron heads through the years. At the time that is all I've run. D2TE in my truck, D0VE in my car.
I think I just worry that someone would cast your hi tech Iron heads and they'd cost $200 more than the Edelbrocks, and more yet to machine.
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Just to keep the record straight BBM's do not cost $2500.00.
You can get a set ready to bolt on with springs for $2450.00.
Sans springs, but with valves for $2250.00
And a bare set for $1350.00. Needing valves and a full valve job. So doable for about 2K.
I have about $1500 in my BBM's including a set of REV valves, but needing the valve seats cut.
Although I can cut my own seats so advantage me.
Granted I got mine when they first went on sale for $1200 and the buck was close to par.
I'm pretty sure if you really watched what you are doing you could do up a set of Felony's for about the same 2K.
As you said yourself YoungOne you did some horse trading to keep the cost in check. Well do some more.
I was in the local Hot Rod shop, which caters to the bling, tuner and Pickup crowd now days.
I got to talking about what I'm up to and the guy says, give me a couple of days and I will dig out some old 27 gaskets
that I can have for free! I will pick them up Monday. ;D ;D
Also, Jay there is a small flaw in the pole. You can vote more than once. ::)
Vote stacking?
For the record I voted once for the CNC full power jobs. I have all the other ones. ;)
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You must be special, Howie, I can't even vote more than once LOL! FWIW I just checked the poll, and it is set up to allow one vote per user - Jay
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I don't know where this person lives, but around here, you can get a set of iron heads completely refurbished with guides, valve job, cut for PC seals, milled, hardened seats on exhaust, new valves, springs retainers, keepers, seals for less than $1000.00. Someone is making a killing at $1700-2500 for iron heads. Joe-JDC
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Actually, I'm all for it.
Yet, methinks it's akin to....beating.a.dead.horse...as they say. At least here.
The correct venue now for those desiring a new iron head is to take their demands to a potential supplier and convince them of the merits.
Another old adage: money talks. Pony up the cash to Edel-B, World Products, etc. and see what happens.
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Scotia, you are a sick man. :D If had known that the BBM's were available for 1350 bare you could have saved a lot of people a lot of typing ::). And yeah I am up for some horse trading but my stable is a little short right now as I am in the middle of a move. :-\ Thanks for the info
Joe 1700 bucks was to much for me. So I traded 4 sets of heads and one set was D2OE the 460 pi head I got at the Portland swap meet for 50 bucks from a kid who was cleaning out his barn and I horde parts. I didn't need them or want them so it was a good trade. I also traded a CJ short block that I would never build. the total cost to build the motor on my sheet was just at 10k but I got 3500 in trade from all my parts not great but 6500 was a lot easier to come up before kids.
Drew, A long, long, time ago, in 1997 I talked to Jim dove and he was casting the F5WE heads in iron the day we talked, and the price he quoted me for them nearly cost me a lung. But he was is a small boutique caster with at the time a small venue. I agree that if Survival were to cast an Iron version they would cost more then the alloy which is why I was looking to the larger casters where one part could offset the other. However IF I had known that BBM were available for such a good price bare I would never started this thread. Looks like there in my future any body have an idea what I'll gain over my current build with C1's
Thanks for all the ideas.
PS. I want a 351c with AFD Aussi heads and a Crane f 238 in a 74 mavrick but thats at a much latter date
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hahaha, there ya go, now YOU don't even want iron heads :P
The only iron head casting I could see getting any real business would be remaking C8OE heads for the CJ crowd. Or at least making it externally identical to the original with a lil better chamber and whatnot. That would sell to the restoration crowd.
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You must be special, Howie, I can't even vote more than once LOL! FWIW I just checked the poll, and it is set up to allow one vote per user - Jay
It must have been a glitch in the spider web. I got two votes in, both for the Max effort junk.
But now I'm locked out.
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Drew, honestly the only reason I was going for the Iron was the price break I saw for all the other hi performance heads and wondered why someone hasn't done it for the FE so far. And yeah 460's blow and I wouldn't want a 600hp 514 for anything ;D so out went the PI's. But and this is a small part of me wanting Iron heads, if the head's would look like factory parts and run better then what we have wouldn't it be cool to pop the hood and watch the jaws drop when they see this "original" FE that just walked by them. However with a price around 1350 for BBM's bare I will have to admit that Iron is very unlikely, so now I have to save everything and get a small bonus at the end of the year so sometime in January of 16 I will have a pair and be running them in a year. 8)
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If your going to make Iron heads.... Do a set of Tunnel Ports! That's the only head not being made at this point. You can get any new FE head, except the Tunnel Port.... JMHO