FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: jayb on April 13, 2015, 07:51:34 PM
-
Joe Craine got me all excited today when he sent me a bunch of pictures of a couple of Trick Flow Specialties EFI manifolds sitting on top of his intake adapter. I think this would be an awesome setup, both from an appearance and performance standpoint, and would give anybody an easy entry into an EFI system. I've posted some of the pictures that Joe sent below, with some explanatory notes.
The photos below shows the front of the TFS intake marked for cutting, to fit the intake adapter, and then the cut version sitting in place.
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/TFS3sm.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/TFS4sm.jpg)
Here's the back of the intake, which doesn't appear to need any trimming at all:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/TFS2sm.jpg)
Here's a picture of the runners, with the top of the intake removed; pretty nice shot to the ports:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/TFS5sm.jpg)
Here's a picture of the manifold with one of the tops in place; this is the normal street top, with some additional runner length built in:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/TFS6sm.jpg)
Here's the bottom half of the race style top in the next picture, which gives shorter runners and a straighter shot to lower manifold, and then both halves installed in the following picture, with the other top sitting off to the side:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/TFS8sm.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/TFS11sm.jpg)
The remaining pictures show the manifold options mounted on an engine, along with some measurements from the top rail of the block.
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/TFS12sm.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/TFS13sm.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/TFS14sm.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/TFS15sm.JPG)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/TFS16sm.jpg)
Joe tells me that you can buy ready made fuel rails for these manifolds, and of course you can bolt on the correct size throttle body. Add injectors and an EFI box, and you have a nearly complete EFI system. I'm impressed...
-
Dang, that is REALLY sweet! It would be a bit tall for a lot of folks who want to keep stuff under the hood....so get a taller hood ;D
Seems like that would be a really nice combo for an easy FI setup with all the components readily available, and from somebody who has a proven reputation for quality performance Ford stuff. Nice!
-
A really neat feature of these intakes is that the upper plenum can be turned around 180*, making it easy to plumb for blower tubes and intercoolers. I think it would be super cool to retrofit a FE into a newer mustang body with EFI, and pass emissions, have all the modern suspension, and brakes, and a more aerodynamic body. I have been looking for another '69Mach I, or Fairlane for several years now, and there just don't seem to be any for sale that are not junk, or restored out of my price range. The '05 up mustangs are getting fairly cheap, and there are some bargains to be had. Joe-JDC
-
Jay, which adapter manifold is that, that Joes using?
-
13011 #006. I asked Jay if it were possible to cut the pushrod tubes in oval .500 openings so that the adapter could be ported larger for CNC heads if I were to use KCII, or Survival that were a larger opening. I think this intake would be perfect for a dedicated CNC adapter port opening for the EFI after porting. I am going to flow the lower then port it and clean up the radius in the box plenum, and re-flow. Ultimately flow the manifold through the adapter through the head. The Survival heads flow just over 350cfm, and with a small port cross section, so I am excited about how this will work. I have a Pro Charger, intercooler, 320lph fuel pump, 42# injectors, etc., just need time and energy. This intake opens up a whole new option for EFI possibilities without the problems with fuel and carburetors. Joe-JDC
-
Jay, which adapter manifold is that, that Joes using?
Just to amplify what Joe said, it is identical to the standard 13001 intake adapter, but the pushrod holes are only 1/2" wide, not 5/8" wide.
-
Joe Craine got me all excited today when he sent me a bunch of pictures of a couple of Trick Flow Specialties EFI manifolds sitting on top of his intake adapter. I think this would be an awesome setup, both from an appearance and performance standpoint, and would give anybody an easy entry into an EFI system. I've posted some of the pictures that Joe sent below, with some explanatory notes.
Here's a picture of the manifold with one of the tops in place; this is the normal street top, with some additional runner length built in:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/TFS6sm.jpg)
Joe tells me that you can buy ready made fuel rails for these manifolds, and of course you can bolt on the correct size throttle body. Add injectors and an EFI box, and you have a nearly complete EFI system. I'm impressed...
A few months back, I had a few comments on a thread here about a thread for an FE build at Hot Rod Engine Tech that included this manifold for a turboed and fuel injected truck engine.
WOW, actually a YEAR and a few months!! :o
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=1559.msg14056#msg14056
-
Was able to spend a few minutes on the TFS lower today, and did a flow test of the runners as cast--not modified in any way, yet. 420 cfm. I am going to scribe the ports on the uncut adapter I bought from Jay, and then port it to my Survival heads. Should be like a tunnel ram EFI. Joe-JDC
-
Yup that's the one I am doing, I am going with the Box R. It is going to need some work port wise though. I already got a 90 mm throttle body and custom spacer to mount up, I am going 5.0 ignition with a quarter horse and distributor less.
-
That looks like a great setup. That was what i'd planned for my ramptruck before giving up on it. I was going to make the runners off a Streetmaster base but this looks clean and simple. Lots of available "5.0L" stuff to make it work.
-
Isn't that an $800 intake getting cut up? Does it come standard with two tops, or how much for an extra top?
-
The upper plenums I already had for my 427W stroker as well as the 9.5" lower. When Jay cast these adapters for a cleveland intake, I ordered the TFS lower only for $399.99. I don't have anything right now that uses a cleveland engine, so it is not important to me to keep it for use on a 9.2" build. You can buy these parts separate from Summit. Just type in TFS box plenum, or TFS cleveland lower. Joe-JDC
-
I think it's awesome and in the right application would be jaw dropping cool, but what application would want so long of a runner and so much volume?
-
My old Crower 8H 8-port fueler injector would look good on that...
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL75/2176019/24279592/411127564.jpg)
-
I have purchased a BBM iron block that I plan on boring to 4.390" and use either a 4.250" or 4.375" stroker crankshaft. I also plan on test several intakes with this combination, and at least four different brands of aluminum heads, and the EFI will just be "icing on the cake" so to speak. Joe-JDC
-
I think it's awesome and in the right application would be jaw dropping cool, but what application would want so long of a runner and so much volume?
Ross, the extra long runners would tune the induction system for the lower RPM ranges, for a given harmonic. You've got Pipemax, right? You can see this by putting your peak HP RPM in the inputs at different values, and look at the differences in intake runner length calculated by the program. Also, I'd bet that the long runner Trick Flow top is designed to take advantage of the second harmonic, kind of like the old Chrysler crossrams from the early '60s, rather than the more commonly used 3rd harmonic.
-
They're designed for 351 cubic inch engines, maybe low 400 cubic inch with boring/stroking; so I'm not sure you could infer that there is too much volume in the plenum when contemplating usage on a mid-400++ cubic inch engine.
-
The ports can be taken out to a full 4V port, the Box R top has huge port openings @ 2.380/ 1.380. With 330 squared I think the potential is there for some good HP.
-
I think it's awesome and in the right application would be jaw dropping cool, but what application would want so long of a runner and so much volume?
Ross, the extra long runners would tune the induction system for the lower RPM ranges, for a given harmonic. You've got Pipemax, right? You can see this by putting your peak HP RPM in the inputs at different values, and look at the differences in intake runner length calculated by the program. Also, I'd bet that the long runner Trick Flow top is designed to take advantage of the second harmonic, kind of like the old Chrysler crossrams from the early '60s, rather than the more commonly used 3rd harmonic.
Gotcha Jay, I have Pipemax and I also keep Excel spreadsheets with all the old Ramchargers formulas, it just seems like they are extremely long runners, especially when combined with the more conventional upper manifold in the pics above. It could just be the pictures too.
Joe, can you measure the runner length with both setups, either every runner or just give me a good estimate for discussion? I can plug it into the spreadsheet and see what RPM the runner length is theoretically tuned to.
Dumpling, I wouldn't infer anything, I am a measuring and calculating fool :) but likely you are right, the plenum itself is only the top, so most of the volume seems to be in the runners. The inside of most EFI manifolds use this plenum design with runner extensions, Ford and Mopar especially, combined with port injection and the long runners, it is likely that it would be very nice for a flat torque curve, although I doubt it's really a low rpm manifold on a 400 inch Cleveland
I wish it would fit under the hook of my Mustang, but it seems like it's too tall. When I get back to Omaha I will measure how much room I have under my B9 scoop. It could be a nice addition when I go with the supercharged motor
-
As soon as I heard about the adapter I was planning on the TF manifold. I did a lot of research on actual testing on the Box R intake, it seems easily capapable of 700 HP under the right Windsor engine. CFM wise my plan includes a 1150 CFM 90mm Wilson throttle body. Once all together I will further tune runner length with plenum spacers.
-
When I got my adapter, I was thinking along these lines as well, but in my cobra, it'd just be way too tall. Hopefully I can come up with a low profile adapter/intake combo, as I really like my adapter. That Borla cross ram is pretty sweet....
-
Gotcha Jay, I have Pipemax and I also keep Excel spreadsheets with all the old Ramchargers formulas, it just seems like they are extremely long runners, especially when combined with the more conventional upper manifold in the pics above. It could just be the pictures too.
Joe, can you measure the runner length with both setups, either every runner or just give me a good estimate for discussion? I can plug it into the spreadsheet and see what RPM the runner length is theoretically tuned to.
Dumpling, I wouldn't infer anything, I am a measuring and calculating fool :) but likely you are right, the plenum itself is only the top, so most of the volume seems to be in the runners. The inside of most EFI manifolds use this plenum design with runner extensions, Ford and Mopar especially, combined with port injection and the long runners, it is likely that it would be very nice for a flat torque curve, although I doubt it's really a low rpm manifold on a 400 inch Cleveland
I wish it would fit under the hook of my Mustang, but it seems like it's too tall. When I get back to Omaha I will measure how much room I have under my B9 scoop. It could be a nice addition when I go with the supercharged motor
I have an injected MT crossram that fits under a stock hood with room to spare. But it's a more laid down design than this TFS. According to the TFS site, runner length with the box top is 11", 13.3" with the 'street' version. I ran a tape down the MT's runners and came up with a little over 11".
Crossrams work great, and there is definitely a hit mid-range.
I have a BXR efi intake that I've been messing with, though the MT performs so well that the incentive is lacking to bolt it on. It has a lower installed height than the TFS, again due to the more laid down design of a crossram.
http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/data/500/bxr_for_fe_s.jpg
-
Cool, I have run Edelbrock cross rams and they do fine, but they aren't a real deep breather. Little different story than the M/T
So the runners, with a 3.25 inch estimate to the head and 1 inch for the adapter added (which is probably conservative for both) using a quick L= ( 72 x C )/N { + / - 3 inches } for wave tuning, solved for RPM.
L = duct length (inches) from Plenum ( the first reflection point) to the back of the intake valve.
72 = constant ( probably derived from valve timing )
C = velocity of sound in air ( this is usually assumed to be about 1100 ft/sec)
N = Engine RPM for maximum tuning effect
11 inch runner, plus 4.25 = 5193 rpm tuned length
13.3 inch runner, plus 4.25 = 4513 rpm tuned length
For giggles
Your 11 inch runner, plus 3.25 (no adapter) = 5558 rpm tuned length
Keep in mind, with airflow, that doesn't mean it dies or falls off, you just lose the advantage of the water hammer effect of slamming a little extra charge into the cylinder. If it flows enough, it'll just keep pulling, but maybe taper off in its rate of increase. Matter of fact, maybe it carries the torque curve a little longer which could be a good thing too.
BTW, what hood does your M/T cross ram fit under and what do you run for TBs and air cleaners? We had to put a Boss 9 scoop on a 67 Mustang, but when we did the Edelbrock cross with two Holleys fit, forgot about that. However it was a bit air cleaner limited and it was only a 410 built to stock CJ specs, heads included, and headers, so not a big HP engine.
-
Pair of Kinsler TB's, short Stelling air cleaners, 68 Torino. Seriously, lots of clearance...went with the Stellings because I was worried about clearance, needlessly it turned out. Mid-range, wide band, torque, is a good thing.
-
Sounds cool, I run a Victor intake on my EFI 489. No shortage of torque, but also relatively small cam for a 489 too. 242/246 @ .050, .595 lift, although I do run it at half the lash Erson recommends so it's a little healthier.
Sounds like a awesome ride, any pics of the car or engine?
-
I've actually been consciously trying to keep pictures of that setup off of the web. Sorry.
-
I think it's awesome and in the right application would be jaw dropping cool, but what application would want so long of a runner and so much volume?
The long runners were what gave the 5.0 Mustang the torque to outrun the 5.7s in the Camaro (Z28 and IROCs both) and Vettes, while giving up almost 50 c.i, especially if you threw the Tony DeFeo tuneup at it. My thoughts are that the manifold would work great in a truck/torque motor while using a lot of factory parts and computer to convert the FE to fuel injection with factory reliability
-
I've actually been consciously trying to keep pictures of that setup off of the web. Sorry.
No worries, seen one manifold converted to injection you've seen them all ;)
(http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd329/My427stang/RailsandTB.jpg)
-
Cool, I have run Edelbrock cross rams and they do fine, but they aren't a real deep breather. Little different story than the M/T
So the runners, with a 3.25 inch estimate to the head and 1 inch for the adapter added (which is probably conservative for both) using a quick L= ( 72 x C )/N { + / - 3 inches } for wave tuning, solved for RPM.
L = duct length (inches) from Plenum ( the first reflection point) to the back of the intake valve.
72 = constant ( probably derived from valve timing )
C = velocity of sound in air ( this is usually assumed to be about 1100 ft/sec)
N = Engine RPM for maximum tuning effect
11 inch runner, plus 4.25 = 5193 rpm tuned length
13.3 inch runner, plus 4.25 = 4513 rpm tuned length
For giggles
Your 11 inch runner, plus 3.25 (no adapter) = 5558 rpm tuned length
Ross, FYI the adapter is 2.5" in runner length if you include the gaskets on either side.
-
With a 350 CFM head I came up with abut 675 HP between 3500-5500 RPM. At least that is my goal with what I am working with.
-
Just got back into town, and was reading through the replys, and I wondered if anyone read that the manifold flowed 420 cfm as cast. When I get some more time available, I will flow the complete assembly, but when I did these type intakes for the SBF crowd, they always picked up flow with just cartridge roll clean up, and I always match each port to the highest flowing port. I have cut plenums and ported them completely if necessary, and welded them up and blended the welds so that they look stock. The airlfow is not going to be a hinderance to any FE head available, or cubic inch. These manifolds were best suited for blown applications where strokers and lots of boost were used. Joe-JDC
-
Joe, I don't thing anyone questioned airflow, the question was based on water hammer theory and where the runner LENGTH was tuned for additional benefit.
Old Ramchargers stuff, has nothing to do with peak flow numbers, it's all about reflection of the wave of the closing intake valve and how it can be used for good :)
I actually like the idea the more I think about it, it gives the volume it needs for the peaks, but should recover well at the shift, even in a naturally aspirated version.
The blower of course is even better and why I was looking so close at it. At some point I am doing mine, and it makes a nice turn toward the passenger side to find a centrifugal huffer :)
-
What I found was that anytime I was able to get the runners over 13", and the upper plenum large enough so that there was no loss of airflow through the lower, then it was like a hit of nitrous at the torque peak up to the limit of the valve train or computer chip limit. If the plenum is large enough, the long runners create a ram affect that is amazing to feel--and no refill of a bottle necessary. Joe-JDC
-
Sounds good to me!
-
Joe Did you ever run an engine with this 351c tfs intake on an FE?
-
Yes, needs at least a 90-105 mm throttle body. The larger the better. Will have to weld the throttle body area and open it up to size. Not large enough at housing as cast. Joe-JDC
-
The test results are in the thread below, on page 11 of the thread - Jay
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=4760.0