FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Mario428 on March 21, 2011, 06:40:50 PM
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As most are aware my racing season was cut short last year by a couple of split cylinders. Way too thin though every test I could do told me I was alright but evidently they were wrong when it came to a .040 over 428 size bore.
With a burning desire to go racing but a poor budget for a new block I decided what the heck and went the 8 sleeve route. A couple of people have tried this but no long term results yet, mine may be the first. Wes seems to have lost interest in his creation.
I cut the old sleeves out and patiently chipped away the Hardblok, the tenacity of the Hardblok has me more optimistic about this working than I had been. That stuff is stuck hard to everything in there!!!!!!
Once the hardblok was out of the way I set the block up on my CNC mill and machined the top and bottom of the holes in the block. I elected to go with a step at the top, did not want to be pushing the block apart by having the step at the bottom and the step at bottom also takes away cyl wall length. This way the head and gasket help hold the desk flat and pinch the flange of the sleeve in place.
The machined block
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/Mario428/FE%20Engine/BlockMachined.jpg)
Between my machine shop and I we found an Allis Chambers sleeve that gave me the right amount of length and meat with a 4.125 bore. Turned the outside of the sleeves to suit the diameters in the block. Diameter at bottom is .020 smaller than the top so sleeve goes 3/4's of the way in before it must be pressed.
Sleeve going in
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/Mario428/FE%20Engine/Sleeveinstallation.jpg)
The liquid is loctite sleeve retainer, the best choice according to everyone I asked.
Sleeves in 1 side
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/Mario428/FE%20Engine/Sleevesinstalled.jpg)
Hardblok is in both sides now and block will be al machine shop by end of the week.
To those in the know around here the motor will be known as "The TRactor Motor" now because of the origin of the sleeves.
Just putting this out to a select few and however it works out by seasons end I will tell the world, good or bad.
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I'll be curious to see how this works out, and wish you the best of luck with it. One of the issues to watch for is a crack developing between one bore and the next at the thinnest point between them; cutting the material out for the sleeve can weaken this area to the point where it can't stand the stresses there anymore, and this crack can develop after some heat cycles. I've seen this happen when two consecutive cylinders are sleeved for a repair, and then the heads have to come off and the crack has to be pinned to repair it. I even had one guy tell me that he pins the middle of the deck between the sleeves even if there is no crack present. Seems to me Wes had this problem too, although I can't remember for sure.
I have also been told that you can get away with sleeving two consecutive cylinders if you use the thinner .090" wall sleeves, and don't make them a real tight press fit in the block. Using that logic, you should be able to sleeve all 8 holes using this technique.
In any case, I've never done something like what you are doing here, so what do I know. If this works out, it will be a great way to create a 427! Good luck with the project; I am looking forward to your updates - Jay
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Carl Holbrook used to do the 8-sleeve route on many of his Cobra Jet race blocks - brand new from the factory! He claimed that the centrifugally cast sleeves held their shape better and gave him less blowby under the stress of racing.
Like Jay mentioned, he used the thinner .090" sleeves in this case. I think I recall Carl saying that he bored and sleeved every other hole first, then came back and did the rest. As far as where to put the step in the block, I have always been taught that it's best to support the sleeve from the bottom. The fire ring from the head gasket pushes down hard on the sleeve, and it is well supported by the main bulkhead structure down low. The head bolts tie in to structure down by the bulkheads too, completing the loop. Up top you only have the head deck, which is now disconnected from the bores. Hopefully it will work well for you though! We're all learning here. ;)
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Gessford Machine Shop in Nebraska sleeved a 428 to a 427 bore several years ago. I don't know how it turned out though. Here is a link with photos:
http://www.gessford.com/projects/images/428-427HardBlok.htm
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I am somewhat concerned about the strength of the deck surface between the cyl's but the thickness of the sleeve itself may be enough to keep from flexing the deck too much.
I spent some time looking as close as I could at the Kirkham block, if you all remember the sleeves were held at the top and freestanding. They seemed to be depending on the rigidity of the cylinder too. Again experimental kinda like mine is.
There is one thing I did do though, the bore at the bottom is .025 smaller than at the top and the rough machined area inbetween has a very rough finish. I am counting on the hardblok to grip the cylinders at the steps and on the rough finish. The hardblok was amazingly hard to remove from the water jackets, came out in chips not large sections like I expected. Allyn Armstrong who's shop is doing the machining was a lot more optimistic about it working when I explained I was going to do a very tall fill on the block. He was surprised to find out that I thought the .125 wall I will have left seemed like lots to me. He is a chevy guy and used to very thick cyl walls. LOL
George at Gessford sent me the link to those pics of the block they did many years ago but like everyone else never did hear the long term progress of the block, even if it ever got used.
I will have about a grand into it by the time I am done, got a pretty good deal on the sleeves so not out a lot of money if it does not work out. Has been an interesting exercise and there is another 105 block sitting waiting if I get the urge to experiment again. GRIN
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It might seem counter-intuitive, but my thinking is that heat expansion of the deck and the sleeve would make having the looser end on top. You might get a little cold weeping at extreme ambient cold, but a plug-in block heater could fix that. When an engine fails it seems that it is rarely up top, but on the bottom. I think having the sleeve tight in the bottom would work better. Diesels I have sleeved were machined that way, but they were two stroke Detroits where the top is always hot, and by their nature of use the sleeves were very tight on both ends, the top being only slightly looser.
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Here's a Boss 302 block I have that was leaking at the head gasket. It has eight sleeves in the block. I am not sure who did the machining, but they left some rough edges at the bottom of the sleeves in the crankcase. In the first two pictures you can see the two cracks that have formed at the thinnest section between adjoining cylinders at two different locations. No welder in Detroit will touch this, even Razor. The only hope looks to be pinning and maybe some trick epoxy and then waterglass.
https://picasaweb.google.com/429Nascar/Boss302block?feat=directlin
Darton makes sleeves with a ring at the top with flat reliefs that mate together to eliminate this thin section, though they would be special order most likely. Their pdf catalog on the web has a lot of interesting technical info worth viewing by itself.
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Doug's photos show exactly the same thing I observed on a 428 block with two consecutive sleeves. This was not my block, but one I saw at a machine shop back in the 80s. But the machinist told me at the time that pinning would solve the problem. Maybe the other guy who told me to pin the area in advance had the right idea. It will be interesting to see how Mario's approach works out. In any case, if pinning the crack will sove the problem that would be a fairly inexpensive fix, although it would be inconvenient to have to pull the motor apart to do it...
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Doug's photos show exactly the same thing I observed on a 428 block with two consecutive sleeves. This was not my block, but one I saw at a machine shop back in the 80s. But the machinist told me at the time that pinning would solve the problem. Maybe the other guy who told me to pin the area in advance had the right idea. It will be interesting to see how Mario's approach works out. In any case, if pinning the crack will sove the problem that would be a fairly inexpensive fix, although it would be inconvenient to have to pull the motor apart to do it...[/quote]
Hmm, now you guys have me wondering about the 427 sideoiler block I have that has 8 sleeves. I haven't noticed any cracking, but I also haven't been looking there for cracks. I'll do that today and see if it has any.
How is this "pinning" done and would it be wise to get it pinned before I assemble the engine even if there are no cracks?
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To "pin" a crack you start at one end, drill a hole, tap it, and then screw in a threaded rod (this serves as the pin) with some Loctite or other sealer, then cut the rod off flush with the surface. You need to start so that the hole that you drill is past the end of the crack. Then you do the same thing further down the crack, so that the next hole you drill overlaps the pin you just put in. Basically you repeat this process all the way down the crack so that you have an overlapping series of threaded pins that replace the metal in the crack area. To finish you machine the surface flat.
There are special kits you can buy with the pins already made up, so you don't have to use threaded rod. Some of them use different mechanisms, like stops of some sort, to allow you to bottom the pin in a specially drilled and tapped hole. I've used this product with success: http://www.locknstitch.com/Metal_Stitching.htm
I don't know if it would be advisable to pin the area before it cracked or not. I had one guy tell me he did this, but I have no idea if that's the right thing to do. I think if it was me I'd try it without doing that, with the understanding that I may have to pull the engine out to fix the cracks if they developed.
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IC. And we're talking about a pretty small crack here, just between the two cylinder bores. I'm going to look the areas over with a magnifying glass and see if there's any evidence of a crack or stress there. If not, I think I'll leave it alone. The block was run for a few thousand miles before I got it, so it does have some history.
I was thinking about hardblock to the freeze plugs, but I don't see where it would do any good for this problem.
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Decades ago I visited Torque Man Enterprises in Glennville Ga. They were leaders in monster 385 series FORDs esp for truck pulls. One of their "tricks" was brazing or welding on what looked like 1 to 1-1/4" Deck Plates to the top of the cylinders, then boring and slieving machining the works so that it had enormous Cubic Inches. I happened to call after a week-end just as a blown Puller Motor was brought in. They were studying it in shock. It had blown the 4-bolt lower end so hard out the bottom of the block that the mains with caps and block sections with studs were all still intact around the crank. It ripped the entire bottom off the motor the carnage was out of this world.. Just keep in mind that the crank needs to be supported.
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A couple of comments come to mind. First, Carl Holbrook was known to furnace braze eight sleeves into a block and then completely go over all the machined areas, treating it as if it were a raw casting. And at one time he used chrome moly tubing as sleeve material. I was a metallurgical process engineer at T&C Livonia at the time and we had a number of discussions about the ideas he dreamed-up. (Bill Coon was actually doing the brazing)
I was amazed at the lay-out of the block in the Jag engine I'm using for Maxton racing. Although when Jag first spec'ed this V-8 design, they intended to use nikasil bores, there was an extended run of gasoline in Europe with high-enough Sulfur content that the combustion process created enough sulfuric acid to attack the bore surfaces. This became a warrantee nightmare, and, although the sulfur content contretemps was solved in fairly short order after identification, the factory has used cast-in liners ever since.
These cast-in liners fit into an aluminium block laid-out in such a way that there is a significant water jacket surrounding each cylinder---but the water jacket only extends down the cylinder for about an inch and a half. Most of the ferrous liner is not cooled by water.
Since I first saw this way of doing things, on an engine that earned a 'Ten Best' on the first year of its introduction, I have believed that the use of properly-installed Hardblok is very justified for high performance applications. About the only drawback is the extra weight. JMO
KS
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PIcked my block up at the machine shop last weekend, after some issues last year I get another place to clean it and put cam bearings in.
I stuck the sleeves into the crankcase abot 3/16 to 1/4 inch assuming since people were putting big stroke cranks in there was lost of room. NOT!!!!!!!!!
A ton of grinding and everything now rotates like it should. PIcked up the clean block last night and started assembly today.
Pic of the deck
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/Mario428/FE%20Engine/465Stepsleevetop.jpg)
With all the machining and whatever over the last couple of years I ended up .013 out of the hole so I cut .020 of the pistons today to fix that problem. 4.175 seems to be somewhat of an oddball bore so I have to file a lot off a set of rings to make them fit. Did get the crank and cam in today
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/Mario428/FE%20Engine/BotomEndApr222011.jpg)
Off to work on my friends Camaro I did the housing for tomorrow, back at the motor on Sunday.
On another note I ordered a cometic gasket kit for my motor, I wanted the 4.3 bore gasket so the gasket would sit on the top of the sleeve but the ridge is awful close to the edge of the sleeve so we will ahve to see how it works out. But interesting gaskets, it was what they call a Street-Pro top end set, can be bought for about the price of 2 of their regular head gaskets and the gaskets look the same to me.
But this is the first time I have seen MLS gaskets and they were quite a surprise.
Top view of head gasket
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/Mario428/FE%20Engine/CometicMLStopview.jpg)
All metal is interesting but the end view of the 3 pcs flopping around threw me for a loop
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/Mario428/FE%20Engine/CometicMLSendview.jpg)
Everyone swears by them so I will coat with copper spray and see how they work.
All the gaskets are somewhat interesting, intake is quite hard but appears to be very high quality
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/Mario428/FE%20Engine/CometicIntakegask.jpg)
Exhaust is a surprise because it is MLS also, my parts guy said he just sold me the last set of headder gaskets ever. LOL
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/Mario428/FE%20Engine/CometicExhgask.jpg)
VC gasket is also quite hard, should work well with my cast or soon to come sheet metal VC's but might be an issue with stock type tin covers, no pics just a black VC gasket.
Will see how the week goes, may play hooky for a day or so and see if I can get the "Tractor" motor fired next weekend.
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Mario,
Wish you best w/ sleeves. I have a 428 w/ a couple sleeves, always wondered about sleeving all holes before. interested in how it works for you, will follow thread for updates down the road.
My real concern with the AC sleeves is will you be able to get the RPM over 2100?? ;D those ole tractors werent good for much more than that. :)
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Mario, this is great information, my 428 will need one new sleeve and one replaced, so I am very thankful for your great information post.
What is with these smileys!? LOL
:) ;D 8) :P
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Moving under its own power. The first raceday in 2 weeks will tell the story.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/Mario428/DrivableMay52011small.jpg)
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Looking good, Mario. Good luck at the track - Jay
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An update on the Cometic gaskets, the VC gasket has a steel core. Might be something to think about with a vacumn pump motor or VC's with no retaining flange (sheet metal?)
No leaks so far.
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Well things did not start out so good, blew a head gasket on the first pass. Leaking between 2 & 3 and into the cooling system.
Wrong choice in head gasket it looks like. The cometic has a 4.3 bore, better than the 4.4 felpros but the embossed sealing ring on the cometic is at 4.5 which put it as the edge of the sleeve. I hemmed and hawed about this but figured the embossed bead was a better way than the felpro. Looks like the manufacturing tolerances on the cometics and my work went against me. The sealing ring was off the edge of the sleeve too much and could not handle it. Every other cylinder is fine but 2 & 3.
Trying to find the smallest round bore head gasket I can but looks like 4.4 is the only choice. Only went 9.94 but I do not know how much the head gasket leaking was hurting me, plugs in 2 & 3 looked fine and there is some tuning to do.
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Sorry to hear that Mario, but 9's on a leaking motor is awesome.
I hope you get the gasket situation worked out.
Interesting thread.
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Nice write-up and pics too Mario. But, what puzzles me is the grand you've got into this project versus the early-on statement that you're low on bucks. I can see saving a gennie 427 block with eight sleeves but wouldn't it be much cheaper to get another 428 block at/near std. bore? Still, would like to hear more as your season progresses and best of luck!
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Nice write-up and pics too Mario. But, what puzzles me is the grand you've got into this project versus the early-on statement that you're low on bucks. I can see saving a gennie 427 block with eight sleeves but wouldn't it be much cheaper to get another 428 block at/near std. bore? Still, would like to hear more as your season progresses and best of luck!
"Low on bucks" is different for everyone, for me it means I cannot swing a Genesis or Pond block. 428's are also as very rare here and seem to go for good $'s everywhere. Hard to find one for less than 1K on the FE forum classifieds. This block also have my cross-bolt main conversion done to it so I have a fair amount of work and money tied up in it already.
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Sorry to hear that Mario, but 9's on a leaking motor is awesome.
I hope you get the gasket situation worked out.
Interesting thread.
Same setup except for carb (950 Hp to an 830) went 9.7's last year but I have another carb to get setup right now.
Just talked to SCE, they have the gasket I want but 3 weeks to make it, then shipping and I really do not want to wait that long.
A set of the Ford felpros on the way so they will likely go in.
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I think the Fel-Pro's should solve the problem, assuming that the problem is the Cometic seal ring sitting on the edge of the sleeve junction. Good luck Mario!
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Turns out the Fel-pro's have a stupid little cutout in them at 7:30 looking at the block. Just that one small part will not sit on the sleeve so not usable.
John Savage in Mo responded to my ROL gasket post on the FE Forum and I bought a set of ROL's from him. Going by what he measured they should work for me.
Will get me going for the next points meet here.
Will be well supplied with gaskets for a while with new Fel-pro's here, SCE's and ROL's on the way. LOL Also cometics with only 2 runs on them, the leaking did not appear to damge them, a fresh block and they would be usable with lots of copper spray.
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You know, if its not one thing its another; I figured those Fel-Pros would work. Same kind of thing just happened to me; today my long awaited Centerline wheels came. They were supposed to be counterbored around the lug nut holes so that the spacers used with 11/16" wheel studs would fit up against the wheels. I've had these things on order since April, and sure enough, they showed up without the counterbore. So, here I am at 11:00 PM, running the CNC machine to counterbore the wheels for the spacers. Should be done by midnight. At least I'll be able to get the tires mounted tomorrow...
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Well the struggles continue. >:( >:( ;D ;D
Have not updated here in a while.
Got the ROL gaskets and they have the same stupid cutouts in one corner so that part of it just barely hangs onto the sleeve by .06 or so. The bore on the ROL's was smaller so I chanced them because the rest of the fire ring was clamped much better than the Fel-Pro's.
Put about 65 passes on them with the only issue being the engine drinking about 2 cups of water every pass. Temperature control was fine until last weekend. Won on Sat but was using more water every pass, very little more but more every pass. Won first round on Sun but was 210+ back at my pit and took a bunch more water. Engine cooled down fine but was 220+ back at the pits. Probably just as well I lost because I would have figured out a way to run it if I was still racing. ;D ;D ;D
The SCE copper gaskets showed up a week or so ago and look very good. Bore size is 4.25 +/- .015 or so, will sit very well on the top of my sleeves.
The thrash is on to be ready to go for Fri because I race a 3 hour tow away and would like to be there Fri evening if I can.
Deck of the motor is getting beat up so may go with some better sealer than a coat of copper gasket spray. ROL gaskets had the old type graphite coating on them so I have a few hours of cleanup to do before I can put the copper gaskets on. SCE insists on a retorque so I have thru evening lined up for that. Keeping my fingers crossed it goes well.
Did find a burnt pushrod, did not have a chance to check it out but first valvetrain problem in a long time, oiling hole in rocker arm may be plugged with something.
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Just an update, the SCE gaskets with some sealer and some radseal are not leaking a drop.
Started out with a leak but the radseal gradually stopped them.
The ROL gasket had given up on cyl #6, manufacturing tolerances I guess.
100+ passes on the motor this year and the sleeves seem to be holding fine, no traces of water in the oil at all. 4 races to go before it is all over so 40-60 more passes to go, 60 if things go well and I go some rounds. GRIN
Labour day weekend on Sat I was entered in 2 classes and had no heating issues. Runner up in one class and 3rd round of the other so I was going hot and heavy at one point.
Best of 10.79 @ 139.4, waiting for the good air to come back.
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That is great news. Keep us updated through the end of your season...o.k?
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That is great news on the sleeves, hopefully they will continue to hang in there.
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Update on the Tractor motor
Season is over but started going tru water again. Was quite bad for the last time I went out but was committed to a Quick 32 I had setup at my local track. Unfortunately or maybe fortunately I stripped all the teeth off my ring gear on the first time trial. Did not get to race but did not torture the engine any more either.
Water was being pushed into the overflow but no sign it was going into the oil. Will be a few weeks before I pull the heads git some other stuff I want to do first. I have a suspicion it is leaking at the same place the ROL gasket was leaking. There was a marked up spot on the top of that sleeve. If that is the case then a cleanup on the deck of the block and the heads and try another set of SCE gaskets for next season.
Really really need a new block but budget may not permit, Catch 22 is if I spent a lot less money travelling to go racing I could swing the block. But what fun would it be to have a car ready to go and only be able to run at my home track.
Overall had a pretty good season, 4th place in the ADRA travelling points series, 2nd place at one of the tracks I regularly go to and 6th at my home track. One win, 3 runnerup's this year has me looking forward to next year already.
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Sounds like a great season, Mario. Congrats on the success, and I for one am looking forward to hearing the source of the water problem. Water leaks have become a subject near and dear to me lately :-\
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Any thoughts on hard-blocking the block 100% (no water in block)? I'm sure you considered same yet some racers seem to be able to do back-to-back rounds with only water in the heads.
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Any thoughts on hard-blocking the block 100% (no water in block)? I'm sure you considered same yet some racers seem to be able to do back-to-back rounds with only water in the heads.
Had never thought of that but I do want some cooling at the top of the cylinders. This is a bracket car that needs to drive around and go back to the lanes quickly.
Do not think the sleeves moving around is the issue, will have to strip the block down and make sure
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Heres what really fixed the water leak problem.
1) You need a copper head gasket! Bigger the the ID of your sleeve but smaller then the OD of the sleeve.
2) You need to put an stainless O-Ring near the OD part of the sleeve! That will keep the top end of the sleeve from moving around and keep what little water out.
3)Anaerobic sealer is your friend. We used a little bit on the copper gasket.
I think it will help out a ton! You dont really need a receiver grove in the heads.
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Just got the heads off and did not like what I saw. Both head gaskets leaking in multiple places where the sleeves are the closest together.
This tells me the sleeves have either compressed a bit there or they are moving there when the engine is running. May have the block setup on a planer and take some very very light cuts to see if I can figure it out. If the sleeves are compressed a bit there will making everything flat again fix the problem? I keep looking at the Genesis block tread and wishing wishing wishing. LOL
The stainless steel o-rings are an idea but there is not much to the top of the sleeves and a groove would weaken them even more.
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Making it flat again wont fix the problem of the sleeves moving around. It will happen again! The Poor Mans is .060 over and we o-ringed the very O.D. of the sleeve for a couple of reasons
1) it will help to keep the sleeves from moving around. It will hold them in place.
2) now you have a fire ring
Sleeves are stronger then the iron, so grooving it and using .040~.041 safety wire works well.
We also floated the bottom of the floor of the block with devcon. Then we hard blocked it to the bottom part of the water pump holes.
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Hey Wes! Good to see you here. Sounds like the PM427 is pretty much dialed in there? That's one of my favorite FE builds. Hope all is well and talk soon!
Mario your build is another fav of mine and has been really cool to see all the custom machine work and everything. Hope you get it sorted over the winter. Your Tbird is a wicked cool ride.
Glenn.