FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Yellow Truck on March 21, 2015, 12:07:07 PM
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I listened to the advice, and this is no longer a cam replacement, I'm going to do a full build. Now I have never done this before but I have two friends who are helping me. One is a good junkyard builder who knows FEs pretty well, working with used and swapped parts to build impressive power in his '65 F100, the other is a heavy diesel mechanic who has built some real power in a 385 series (over 500 cu in now) '68 F100. I'll still ask some real rookie questions.
First up, with the engine out and mostly apart we have some early questions from the initial examination. We will completely measure the block but when we pulled three of the bearing caps we saw the lower bearing surfaces looked pretty good. The crank has a couple of nicks, but they have not left any wear marks on the bearings.
The cylinders and pistons are a concern. This is the worst looking of the pistons, it has a slightly moist look to the carbon build up. The rest were comparable but this one was a little worse:
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/Engine%20Out/2015-03-19%2016.24.17.jpg)
We also noticed scoring. The cross thatching is still visible, and by dragging a fingernail some of the score marks could be felt. Notice that they come right up to the top of the bore, so it is not a skirt:
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/Engine%20Out/2015-03-19%2016.29.21%20HDR.jpg)
When we got the pistons out, to our surprise we found the score marks go right to the bottom of the bore, well beyond the piston travel:
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/Engine%20Out/2015-03-19%2020.32.02.jpg)
Last, we noticed the pistons also have some scoring on the sides of the skirts, but this could be a red herring:
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/Engine%20Out/2015-03-19%2020.34.28.jpg)
All the cylinders have very similar scoring, and it is fairly evenly distributed around the cylinder circumference. I have never torn an engine apart before, and my friend has never seen scoring like this. I think the engine will need honing, and I will be asking for more guidance as we pull measurements and start considering what to do with heads, intake, carb, and cam selections. Anyone see this before or have an idea as to its source?
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Boy, that looks like pretty normal wear to me. If you are going to re-use the pistons, clean them all up, hone the cylinders, install new rings and you are good to go. You should take the block to a machine shop and have them measure the bores, though. It may be best to overbore the block and install new pistons, depending on how much wear is really in the bores.
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Jay, that is encouraging. We didn't think the scoring looked like wear as it starts at the bottom of the bore and continues to the very upper edge, well outside ring travel.
We have not had time yet, but we will be measuring the bores (my rough measurement with a calliper shows 4.074 bore for 415 cubes) but we will be checking for taper, and there is no noticeable ridge. Clean pistons and new rings are in order, possibly a honing, but I do plan to check the block for cracks and sonic test it. We also plan to measure the cam bearings and we will inspect the crank. So far crank bearing wear looks good. I'll come back with a full set of dimensions in the next couple of days. Meanwhile I'm closely reading Barry's book.
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I'm just taking a guess here, but I think the engine has been rebuilt once before and they just honed the cylinders ( not bored ) and used new pistons. I think the scratches may be there from before. Those don't look like original pistons, the originals may have had skirts that extended further down the bore. Check things over as you tear it down, they can provide clues. Do the bearings have any manufacturer markings? Original Ford bearings had the Ford logo and a part number along with a date.
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yep, looks like a home hone job, if everything is within spec, I would hone it with a blueberry bush, clean the pistons, add a new set of rings & make some smoke. If the bearings look good & oil pressure was good I maybe inclined to reuse them. then again I'm a cheap bastard.
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Agree that it does not look bad. Take those pistons with after cleaning to the shop so the machinist can measure current piston-to-bore clearance. Bet they are within spec. and even with a hone will still be useable given no skirt cracking or worn ring lands. If a bore is needed, get the minimal oversized pistons (say .010) over to preserve wall strength and even allow for a future overbore.
For the heck of it, plug a few rings into a bore or two and see what the ring gap is now as well as a de-ringed piston to check skirt clerance. Also, check that the ends of each ring have some carbon and not a polished look (meaning the rings butted from insufficient gaps). I doubt that any rings butted as that often result in broken rings and much worse looking bores. If you are going the whole route, have the shop install new cam bearings after a thorough cleaning. I say that since it's all to easy to mess up the new bearings even with the proper tool.....unless one does it often.
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I have not made a lot of progress, my buddy with the long dial gauge for measuring the cam bearings hasn't been by, but with a decent quality vermeer calliper I pulled some numbers:
Bore: 4.074
Deck: 0.035
The main bearing caps were not torqued down so this could be a little high, but it is consistent with the ring at the top of the engine. I note it is higher than the value given for the 410 in Steve Christ's book (it gives the clearance deck to piston as 0.005 inches).
I measured the piston dish after cleaning it by filling it with fine sand, levelling it, and then pouring it out and measuring the volume - it gave me about a 12 cc dish.
Using the stock dimensions for stroke and for a Felpro 1020 gasket, and the nominal volume of 74cc for the combustion chamber on a C7AE-A head, I get a C/R of about 9.2:1. Not exactly a performance build.
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The engine is now down to the block, got the crank out and the thrust bearing shows more wear on the top of the bearing than any of the other bottom halves. I'm thinking it needs some machining.
I'm thinking about a few things:
- I called the machine shop my buddies recommended, and they don't have a torque plate for an FE, or a sonic tester. I won't take them the engine based on that, but I can get a torque plate from a guy who had it made by Ford machinists to support his race FEs back in the late sixties.
- I'm also considering buying a cheap ultrasonic tester. You can get good ones for $600 and up, but you can now get cheap ones for $200 or less. Anyone use one?
- This may be over the top, but I'm thinking about getting a girdle for it. There is one on eBay for about $300 that looks pretty good - comes with studs for the oil pan and ties the engine together with a pretty good bit of steel. Needs a little machining to the main caps. Any thoughts?
Here is a picture of the plate:
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/100_1653.jpg)
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Ford-FE-Deluxe-Main-Girdle-352-360-390-406-410-427-428-Cobra-Jet-cammer-shelby-/261816955795?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item3cf581b393&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Ford-FE-Deluxe-Main-Girdle-352-360-390-406-410-427-428-Cobra-Jet-cammer-shelby-/261816955795?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item3cf581b393&vxp=mtr)
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The world may come to an end, but I doubt it.
Forget the sonic tester and put the money towards pistons.
Go 0.010" over for a 0.040" and get a good piston maybe even on the end of
a 6.7" rod and a 4.250" arm.
Bore and hone with the cool plate and off you go.
I feel the girdle is a fluff item and will not make you any faster or stronger,
just lighter in the wallet.
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I'm looking for some advice. I want as strong a street engine as I can get, I don't really care too much about drivability, it is not a commuter. I want an FE because that is what the truck came with, but I want a 500 HP/500 ft-lbs engine. Money is not my first consideration, but it is not a limitless resource. Can I get some recommendations:
- Lets start with what compression ration should I aim for? The old build was around 9.3
- My preference is to keep the crank and flywheel, but if I'd like to know if that will hold me back and how much.
- I have cast FM pistons, they need to go.
- I have C6AE-C rods. In "Building Max Performance FE Engines" the author says they are good rods, but he also recommends against re-using old rods. Is it worth getting them inspected or should I replace them?
- I need to replace the heads, what should I be thinking about when looking at the after market?
- I can get a used Streetmaster intake for free, for what I'm doing are there any drawbacks
- I am pretty sure I want to go hydraulic roller for the cam. What makes sense, and if you don't mind, I'd like to know why you recommend it.
- Should I re-use any part of the rocker assembly, or should I replace it entirely?
I gave away the heads and intake this week, so I'm committed at this point. I'm interviewing some machine shops, found one that claims FE experience and has a torque plate. I'll get it measured and checked out before I decide what machining to do, but it is time to decide on what to do about the rest of it. Thanks to Howie I won't be spending money on a girdle, although it sounds cool.
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I'll second Howie's advice, .040" over with a 4.250" stroker crank and the appropriate rods will drop right in with a set of 9.8:1 dished or 11:1 flat tops to round it out.
You'll end up with a 447 that will get you to the power levels you are looking for while still being street friendly enough to enjoy a short trip to Wally-World now and then.
If this has been mentioned and I missed it, my apologies. Head to the home page on this forum, click on articles/low buck 390 build in car craft. Lots of additional info and help there to round out what you are looking for.
I went with Survival for my stroker kit, comes with everything you need on the bottom end and won't break the bank, lots of choices out there. I preferred the balanced assembly all single sourced. You've already got the block and the articles will help inform you on matching all the other components you need to put a solid runner together.
Good luck with your build.
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I think Howie and lens are right on the money. Tough to beat Barry's kits for bang for the buck. What is the intended use for the truck? If it were mine I might go a little less compression in a heavy vehicle to help with detonation, jmho. Maybe Barry's or the new bbm heads high swirl chambers will help that though. Also that street master is a great intake.
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Please don't use Steve Christ's book. It has many errors.
Use the one from Survival Motorsports. It is up to date and has excellent advice in it.
Bob
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Some of your questions can't be answered real specifically until you pick a target. How much horsepower, how much torque, and where in the RPM range do you want to run? You need to have specific answers to these questions before, for example, you can pick a cam.
The compression ratio will depend on the cam you want to run. For example let's say you want maximum power in the 3000-5000 RPM range. A cam in the 235@.050" range for duration would get you there, and then a compression ratio of around 10:1 would be just about right for that. Pick the cam first, or pick several candidates, and post the specifications. Then decide yes or no on the stroker kit. With that information, someone here will be happy to run a DCR (Dynamic Compression Ratio) calculation on the combination with the different cams, and that will give you the optimum compression ratio. Milder cams need less compression, and more radical cams need more.
At elevated power levels, the stock rods are a question mark. With good bolts they will most likely live, but there is the off chance that one will blow up on you. Why chance it? Then, if you are going to buy pistons, rings, and rods, the step up to a stroker kit isn't that much, another $600 or $700 maybe. You asked how much the stock crank and rods will hold you back; without the stroker kit, you are leaving 50 ft-lbs of torque on the table. That would be a huge difference in a pickup.
Get that Streetmaster intake! That is an outstanding intake manifold for a 400-500 horsepower engine. It will be down a little on torque at low RPM levels compared to a good dual plane like an Edelbrock Performer RPM, but not much, and you won't even miss the torque if you go with the stroker kit.
On the heads, get what you can afford. The stock Edelbrock heads are excellent, and the Survival Motorsports and BBM heads are a step up from there. Good heads will help all across the RPM range, but for your combination I'd probably just go with the stock Edelbrock heads. They work well with the Streetmaster intake, and you can always pull them off and get them ported later.
The valvetrain options will depend on the cam again, and the spring requirements. You might be able to retain the stock rockershafts, but check them for cracks (see the Car Craft article). At least figure on getting the rocker shaft end stands from Precision Oil Pumps, because they provide support to the shafts that the factory rocker stands don't.
Last piece of advice - get the whole plan together before you buy anything. You want the whole package to work together, and if you change your mind about something halfway through the purchases, you may end up with a component mismatch that will cost you performance.
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Thank you for the replies. Jay, I'm looking for a 500/500 engine, the peak power range of 3,000 to 6,000 is good, the dyno profile on your Car Craft build is outstanding. I want an engine that still makes good power at 6,000 - if you remember my dyno results mine was dead at 5,000.
Today I did find a machine shop with good history with FEs, and I'll get them my block to test and measure before we start. If I can I'll keep it at 4.08, but if needed we will take it to 4.09. Won't know until they have a cut at it.
I'll have to wait until we have the bore size to order anything, but it makes sense to go with a 4.250 crank. I wanted to stay with an original crank for sentimental reasons, but that is silly when I'm swapping out everything else.
Jay, there are a few things you can clarify for me - I want to go with a hydraulic roller lifter. I don't know enough about cams to tell you what I want, but for my current crank Lunati recommended a custom grind with duration of 230 at 0.050, lobe lift of 3.28, and separation of 112. I don't have the experience to tell if that is a good match to to the longer stroke. The guy who runs the machine shop said the dyno results he was quoting were for a hydraulic roller with 230/236 duration at 0.050 and made 500 and 500 with a 4.125 stroke. For some reason he prefers the 4.125, I didn't ask him why.
I also don't know the current rockers will hold up to the higher revs (because if I can I will), or the stiffer springs. I will look at the shafts.
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Turns out my buddy has a Holley Street Dominator, not a Streetmaster. What is the difference in dyno terms?
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I like the SD better than the SM, if for no other reason other than the casting is stronger at the second bolt back from each corner
I think performance is about equal. Go for it, I loved mine on my 390 in my truck and honestly should have ported it for the 445 instead of the RPM intake. I still believe part throttle tuning is easier on the SM/SD than the RPMs
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Thanks Ross, and especially for the quick reply - he was asking if I wanted him to pull it off an engine tonight.
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Please don't use Steve Christ's book. It has many errors.
Use the one from Survival Motorsports. It is up to date and has excellent advice in it.
Bob
I have to disagree Bob.
I think Steve's book is a great piece of FE history and should sit right along side all the other FE books.
So a couple of part numbers are off.
It's still a pretty good story. jmho
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I did find Steve Christ's book helpful for pulling the motor and the tear down, particularly since I had limited experience with it. Once the good people here convinced me that a cam swap was not the right approach, clearly a more performance focussed book was needed, and I got and closely read Mr. Rabotnick's book.
I do have a Street Dominator coming my way, and I have found a machine shop that seems capable so I'll get them my block next week. Now if only I could get someone at Survival to talk to me I might order some parts.
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My buddy is suggesting that he has a "virgin" (meaning never machined) C8ME-A 390 block, and it might be a better starting point than my C6ME-A. Mine has been machined once before, his is a bit rusty in the bores, but it is at 4.05.
Mine didn't have any issues I could see, and it will be magna-fluxed. Is there any advantage of a C8 over a C6 block?
Is there any value in keeping the 1U crank with the C6 block? In other words, am I breaking up a significant pairing by separating the original 1U crank from the C6 block?
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Now that stroker kits are available from so many parts suppliers, the 1U crankshaft has lost a lot of its appeal. It is still a good piece, but not anything special as far as restoration. If your block was bored minimum the first time, it should be as good as the later block, and might actually be better if the previous owner used water without anti-freeze. Rust inside the water passages can be worse than the worn bores when looking for a good block to sonic test. Joe-JDC
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I got the Street Dominator today, and a second 390 block - a C8ME-A that my buddy had. Bit rusty by never been machined. I'll get it and my C6ME-A block cleaned, fluxed, sonic checked, and measured, then pick one to move ahead with.
Two things about the Street Dominator stood out - first there is no rear water passage. The front of the intake is heated but not the rears. I assume it is fine since no one mentioned it, but it seemed odd.
Second are these three square projections on one side, only two on the other. Any idea what they are for? Circled in red.(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/Street%20Dominator.jpg)
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The water jacket on the FE only crosses over on the front.
The little tabs are for the machining process.
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Thanks Howie.
I already gave my stock intake away so didn't realize the water jacket for it didn't cross over. Curious then why the block has a rear opening (the intake has the corrosion marks on the rear from a water inlet).
What machining would the tabs be used for? I've not seen them on any other make of intake, but when I looked up Street Dominators for other engine types, most had them.
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The heads can be used on either side, there isn't a "left" & "right". Only have to have one casting, half as much inventory, etc.
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Kevin - of course! That called for a head slap. I think I mentioned that I'm entering, for me, new waters.
I have two blocks in the back of my truck ready to go to a machine shop on Monday.
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No problem. Just an FYI, one thing to keep in mind on FE's is Ford added more accessory bolt holes to the end of the heads as the years went on and there became more things to mount. For example, using early heads may leave you with no threaded holes on one end or one side. That's one downside to having the same casting used for both sides. Just something to make a note of.
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What machining would the tabs be used for? I've not seen them on any other make of intake, but when I looked up Street Dominators for other engine types, most had them.
They are for supporting the intake as it is production machined. I had a look at a C6 "Big S" intake and it has locating tabs on both sides.
I think you will find that most intakes have some sort of locating tab for holding it in place for the machine operation.
Cylinder heads, blocks, and for that matter pretty much any casting will have a register tab for setting it in the holding fixture.
By the way, there is a procedure for opening up the plenum on your new intake which is good for an extra 500 hp and a $1000 in the wallet.
But if you show a picture of the big hole we can figure out if someone has already done this and you won't be cashing in. ::)
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Howie,
I gave it to a buddy to take to work to pull a stud out of one of the threaded holes at the carb mounting surface - it was broken off flush to the surface. He is a heavy diesel mechanic and they have a machine shop. He is going to put stainless helicoils in all the threaded holes to avoid future issues.
I didn't take a picture, but I can say that the plenum, and specifically the dividers between the runners, has not be disturbed. I do recall some discussion about the Street Dominator benefiting from the same mods as the Streetmaster, but I couldn't remember if the mods helped a street build or only a high rpm race build. If it will help my build I'm up for it.
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Kevin,
I'm going with either Edelbrock or Survival heads. The real decision between them seems to hinge on not being able to get anyone at Survival to sell them to me. I wrote twice and got no reply. Then I called and spoke to a very nice man who builds engines there, but he couldn't work with me to take an order.
I'm also going back and forth between replacing everything (including changing to another block) or keeping my crank and rods and changing out the rest.
I have a little bit of time since the the two blocks are going to a machine shop for evaluation next week, but when I have the results, including the final bore size, I'll need to get out the credit card. That requires someone on the other end of the line!
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The mods to the Holley intake will definitely help your build; I think that anything over 400 HP will benefit from those modifications.
A little more on those little square stubs coming out of the manifold. Any cast aluminum part has to have some way to be fixtured in order to be machined. Those square things are basically datum points to fit into some kind of fixture. Every cast part has to fit on a fixture for machining. In some cases, you can do this without adding additional material to the casting, but if there aren't any clear, flat surfaces to index to the fixture, you need to create some. That is what those square stubs are for.
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The head dilemma should be between Survival (aka Felony) and BBM.
I have no actually data to back this up, but I think they are pretty close in the giddy up factor.
The Edelbrock's are not in the same class.
Full disclosure: I do own a set of Edelbrock's and a set of BBM's and would not mind owning a set of Felony's.
Edit: Words from the gent's who actually developed their respective heads.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thread/1428150539/Aluminum+cylinder+head+suggestions
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Pretty much luck of the draw on the phone these days. Best shot is to call around 10 or 10:30 in the AM or late afternoons. My cell - the 2489310358 number - is good 'til late in the evening. Just too many guys, too many projects, and not enough "Barry". Texts and email are answerable really late and really early - might be a good way to handle questions as well.
The guy you spoke with is very, very technically capable, quite capable of taking down information, but sometimes reluctant to close the deal on making a sale. I think he's scared to goof anything up, even though I am 100% confident that he wouldn't.
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Barry,
Thank you for the reply. How busy you are is a reflection of how big the built up demand for good FE parts is, and how welcome your work is. Nice problem to have.
I am sorry that I don't remember his name, but he was very helpful up to the point he couldn't help any more. I will try again - I need help building the order for parts I need, and some advice on what I don't need (can re-use) to get where I want to go.
Howie,
As always, thanks for the helpful suggestion.
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Beginning to get feedback on the two blocks, but in talking to the machinist he said something that sounded a little odd and I thought I'd ask people who know more than I do. I was asking him to confirm the deck height and if it needs to be decked, to tell me the amount that would come off to square it to the bores. He said that if you run a longer rod you can run higher compression. To be clear, he was not saying that a longer rod will make higher compression (obviously it will), but that the characteristics of the piston movement in the bore results in a lesser tendency to detonate.
Anyone have experience with longer rods tolerating a higher CR without running into detonation issues?
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It's the piston that will set the deck height.
The formula, D-(H+L+T)=d
D = Deck Height
H = Compression height of the piston
L = Connecting Rod Length
d = Deck Clearance
An engine with a zero deck clearance and a quench of about .040"
will do more to prevent detonation, along with a good cam pick and a good curve on the dizzy.
Along with a good gear set and the best fuel you can find.
Bigger engines tolerate more compression and bigger cams than smaller engines.
Cam up and don't lug the engine down and keep your foot in it. ;)
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Howie,
I don't know if I'm misreading your post, but deck height is the distance from the center line of the crank to the top of the bore. It is a measurement of the block, I think you are mixing it with deck clearance, which is influenced by piston compression height.
I asked the machinist for a measure of the deck height so I know what we have to play with when I come back here for some suggestions on the build.
On the economics side of stroker kit vs keep my crank and rods, I will need new pistons, and I have a friend that wants to buy my 1U crank, so it looks like the economics for a new rotating assembly is closer to keeping what I have than I expected-
Keep the old assembly (prices are approximate):
- forged pistons - $700
- inspect the rods - $100
- rings and bearings - $200
- balance the assembly - $450
Total of $1,450 Canadian.
Buy a Prison Break kit:
- buy the kit $1,995
- neutral balance my flywheel $100
- sell my crank and rods to a buddy -$300
Total of about $2,300 when converted to Canadian.
I'll give up drinking for a month to make up the difference!
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Ya I'm probably mixing something up. ::)
Stock deck height of an FE is 10.17"
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The difference in compression you can run with a long rod vs a short rod is not going to be significant. I wouldn't worry about any differences there.
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The difference in compression you can run with a long rod vs a short rod is not going to be significant. I wouldn't worry about any differences there.
I agree. Better to focus on tight quench, good blueprinting and matching parts. Run 6.49 rods on a stock crank and 6.70 for a stroker
A good read here too
http://cochise.uia.net/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html
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Thanks Ross, that link answered the question about how rod length would affect CR. It is not obvious until you think about the dynamic compression ratio.
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There are a whole bunch of factors that play into fuel quality tolerance that are not readily addressed in dynamic compression ratio calculations. The DCR stuff is a valid "cross check" and a useful directional tool. But it is definitely not a number you should be trying to optimize simply for the sake of "hitting the number". Its good data but not the only factor - I think a couple folks here have touched on that.
Consider an example with a big cam and 11:1 compression running on pump gas. Even when the DCR is in the safe range, at some point in the power band you will still have a 11:1 compression ratio engine. Probably right around peak torque of +/- 4000-4500 RPM. If you're in a Mustang or a Cobra the odds are that you'll sweep past that point pretty quickly with minimal load on the engine and never experience a problem. But in a heavily loaded truck or a boat you might be "parking the motor" at that RPM under a heavy load and it'll eat itself up.
Rod length and bore diameter both have significant impacts on fuel tolerance, but it might not be in the way you'd expect. They are supporting a function of time - the time required for excessive cylinder pressure to initiate a pressure induced secondary flame front and resultant detonation event. Consider that a shorter rod will essentially pull the piston away from the head more quickly it will thus allow pressure drop to happen before the secondary combustion front has the time to develop. Same benefit for a smaller bore - the smaller diameter takes less time for complete combustion to spread across the chamber & cylinder.
You should also consider combustion chamber shape when working on fuel tolerance. More modern chamber designs will not reflect on most flow bench numbers and will not show up on a DCR calculation. But a current chamber shape will help to homogenize mixtures and steer the combustion process past a more centrally located spark plug. This in turn means a reduced timing advance requirement, more power, and improved tolerance for poor fuel.
Lacking the OEM benefits of electronic fuel and timing management we need to be a little more conservative about some things.
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There are a whole bunch of factors that play into fuel quality tolerance that are not readily addressed in dynamic compression ratio calculations. The DCR stuff is a valid "cross check" and a useful directional tool. But it is definitely not a number you should be trying to optimize simply for the sake of "hitting the number". Its good data but not the only factor - I think a couple folks here have touched on that.
Consider an example with a big cam and 11:1 compression running on pump gas. Even when the DCR is in the safe range, at some point in the power band you will still have a 11:1 compression ratio engine. Probably right around peak torque of +/- 4000-4500 RPM. If you're in a Mustang or a Cobra the odds are that you'll sweep past that point pretty quickly with minimal load on the engine and never experience a problem. But in a heavily loaded truck or a boat you might be "parking the motor" at that RPM under a heavy load and it'll eat itself up.
Rod length and bore diameter both have significant impacts on fuel tolerance, but it might not be in the way you'd expect. They are supporting a function of time - the time required for excessive cylinder pressure to initiate a pressure induced secondary flame front and resultant detonation event. Consider that a shorter rod will essentially pull the piston away from the head more quickly it will thus allow pressure drop to happen before the secondary combustion front has the time to develop. Same benefit for a smaller bore - the smaller diameter takes less time for complete combustion to spread across the chamber & cylinder.
You should also consider combustion chamber shape when working on fuel tolerance. More modern chamber designs will not reflect on most flow bench numbers and will not show up on a DCR calculation. But a current chamber shape will help to homogenize mixtures and steer the combustion process past a more centrally located spark plug. This in turn means a reduced timing advance requirement, more power, and improved tolerance for poor fuel.
Lacking the OEM benefits of electronic fuel and timing management we need to be a little more conservative about some things.
Awesome explanation, especially about "Parking the Motor" a problem I had for 20 years running 428's in trucks. Being a good mechanic but not a hot rod mechanic I could never fix the problem only run reduced timing and cold plugs, Thanks!
Nick
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Thank you Barry. That is the best "in one place" explanation I've seen. I've been trying to put that together for some time.
I should have the actual number for my block today - I'll know what it needs done in terms of bore and deck height, and then I can try to reach you to get a part list going.
I was talked out of a simple cam replacement, which has made this a much better learning experience, and I hope will get us a better result.
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I noticed you said $100 to neutral balance your flywheel.
I strongly recommend you buy a new steel 390/427 flywheel.
If this is an old cast flywheel from 50 years ago it is best used as a door stop now. jmho
I believe Survival can throw a Ford racing flywheel in the box for a modest price. and it will
be much safer than a used old cast flywheel that has had holes drilled in it. :o
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Howie,
That is a good suggestion - but I bought a McLeod fly wheel when I put this engine in 4 years ago. If my buddy buys the crank he will probably want the flywheel as well, and rather than balance that one and buy a new Detroit balanced for his build, I'll probably let him have the McLeod and get Barry to sell me a new one.
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I have the blocks back from the machine shop. I swapped my 410 rotating assembly and block for my buddy's virgin 390 plus a few bucks. He will put it back together with a little freshening and more cam, and I'm going down the stroker path. Here is what I have on this block:
- It was left outside for a decade, but it was cleaned, bead blasted, and magna-fluxed and came up good
- It needs to be bored 20 over, for a 4.07 bore
- It needs to be align honed
- The deck heights are 10.191 and 10.186 on one side, and 10.177 and 10.178 on the other. It needs to be decked because it was rusty, assume final deck height will be 10.175 to 10.170
The machinist has been doing this for over 40 years, has done quite a few FEs, and has the torque plates (in fact, won't bore or hone without them). I'm confident he knows what he is doing.
I am curious how common it is for a block to measure with a taller deck height than the stock 10.17?
Now, since the FE Reunion and Race will be over next week, perhaps I can get someone at Survival on the phone and place an order. I'm going stroker kit, heads, hydraulic roller cam and lifters, (I have a Street Dominator intake), new rocker assembly, bolts and studs as appropriate, plus the usual assortment of bits that a 45 year old engine needs (damper, spacer,etc.).
I have a few questions for Barry and this community:
- One of my buddies suggested that you can't spin a 4.25 stroke that hard. I've been reading and everything I've read suggests that with a 6.7 inch rod 6,000 is not a concern. Am I right?
- Survival has normal and limited travel hydraulic roller lifters, is there a downside to using the limited travel ones? I assume they allow higher RPM operation.
- I have a stock distributor with a Petronix Ignitor system and a Flame Thrower coil. I'd rather not throw more money on a new distributor this year, what is the limit imposed by the older style distributor?
- For the strongest street engine I can run on 91 or 93 octane (and at 3,500 feet elevation), what is the CR I should target? Survival doesn't provide any piston details on their site, but I gather from looking around the piston height for this combination is 1.33 inches, what is available and advisable for the piston volume?
- Based on the above, what cam will give me a nice fat torque curve that can also run out to 6,000 RPM without gasping for air?
- Last, but not least, what should I put on top of the intake? Size, type, and brand? I've never had anything but a vacuum secondary, and I don't really care about smooth driving. When I step in it, I want snap.
I built myself a little CR calculator in excel so I could easily compare builds:
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Suggest, while it's in the bare block stage to pay a little attention to the oil galleries from cam to head. Especially since it's been sitting out. A little pressure test could save a later head ache. Also the head bolt hole next to the riser.
One of my lessons in FE 101. ;)
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I've spun those 4.25" strokers with 6.700" rods to 7000 RPM literally hundreds of times, and so has Barry. No concern at all spinning to 6000+.
My experience with hydraulic roller lifters is limited, but I think the short travel ones allow more RPM. I'd go that route.
Stock distributor and Pertronix will be fine, have the distributor set up so that all the advance is in by 3000 RPM or so.
Compression and cam go together; its never a good idea pick them out independently. You could put a huge cam in that engine and run on pump gas at 11.5:1; shorter duration cams will want less compression. My advice would be to pick your cam first, based on where you want to operate the engine, and then from there use a DCR calculator to pick your compression ratio. By the way, even a low end cam will turn the engine to 6000 RPM; I've never heard of a cam limiting an engine's RPM range, except in the case of valve float or hydraulic lifter pump-up. Take a look at the online catalogs for Comp or some other cam brand, read the details, and post the potential cam candidates here; I'm sure you'll get lots of feedback.
For a carb, I'd be looking at mechanical secondaries myself, especially with the single plane intake. I love Holley double pumpers... ;D
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Thanks Jay. I may be doing something really stupid, but when I go to the Comp website and specify Ford FE I am limited to hydraulic flat tappet, mechanical flat tappet, or mechanical roller options. If I have a part number for a hydraulic roller cam, I can find it, but their selections if you try to browse don't include a hydraulic roller option. For example, I found one for sale on eBay (not planning on buying it, just using it to make the point) with a grind number XR280HR, if I search for that as a grind number on their site it comes up with a part that I can't otherwise locate.
Appreciate your other advice. I was hoping the recommendation would be a double pumper.
Thanks Turbohunter. BTW I put that James Duff kit in, now I just need an engine to see if makes a difference!
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BTW I put that James Duff kit in, now I just need an engine to see if makes a difference!
Oh cool.
I'll be interested to hear about it.
The rear hole is working pretty well for me. Think I'll still try to elevate the rear end of the bar a bit though.
Have fun.
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FYI, there is rarely a day my street 489 FE doesn't see 6500 at some point, and it's been fresh as day one since 2006.
My 445 truck motor wouldn't make any power up there, but I wouldn't hesitate letting it run there either :)
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It's not uncommon for FE's to have a little extra deck meat.
Good for you. ;D
To get to an actual zero deck you may find you need to bring it to 10.16" +-.
I had a look at Summit for that stick.
Looks ok for a small one.
http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/cca-cl34-432-9
This one looks like it may have some excitement in it. ;)
http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/crn-349541/overview/make/ford
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Howie,
Like I said, I'm not going to buy that one, the point is I can't find Comp hydraulic rollers for the FE on their website. BTW if you look at that Comp cam on Summit they describe it as a "Hydraulic Roller Tappet". They need to make up their mind.
Looking at the Crane website, this is what I'd be drawn to: HR-234/354-2S-12. It's claimed range is 2,400 to 6,200 for a 428. Probably get a bit more lower end torque with the 4.25 stroke. I'm out of my depth, but the gross lift looks like it might be too much.
Having said that, my problem is I'll probably only build one of these, and won't have the chance to compare. Be nice to get some strong advice from someone who has had the chance to do similar builds with different cams.
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Just got back in from Beaver Springs - it'll take me a couple days to get back into the groove....
The 4.25 stroker packages will go past 6000 without any problem at all - even in basic form. Crank, rods, pistons are definitely good for much more if called upon.
Compression and cam inter-relationship are an interesting subject. Many guys rely upon DCR numbers and try to run a pretty fair amount of compression in street use counting on a bigger cam to get them away from detonation. My thoughts on compression are that at some point around torque peak you will still have an 11:1 motor when the cam "comes in". On a lighter weight Cobra or Mustang that may not mean much and will work fine. But in a Galaxie with freeway gearing or in a truck that same package puts you at risk for a rather minimal gain - maybe 25-30HP. Following that logic, the hydraulic roller cam packages I use are more often targeted at around a 5500 RPM to 6000 RPM peak - and the standard liftes go there without a problem.
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Barry, thank you for your reply. I think with my truck, running 3.70 gears but being on the heavy side (even if it will never do any heavy hauling) needs to stay out of the risk of detonation. I want 0 to 70 mph (scary to go much faster) acceleration with what is effectively a three speed.
I assume I'll shift above 6,000 only occasionally, and only when I want to show off. I was thinking a power range from near 2 to near 6,000 is the goal.
I will try to get a call in this week. Need to get this started.
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This is pretty much the end of this thread. Go ahold of Barry today and took the plunge. Prison Break kit (flat top pistons for a 10.5 CR), FElony heads, hydraulic roller cam (234/240 at 0.050, 594/598 lift), lifters, a T & D rocker set, a Quick Fuel 830 with mechanical secondaries, plus the extra bits needed. I have a Street Dominator intake.
Next up I'll start a build up thread and ask any questions that come up.
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:) :) :) :) :) :)
Have fun.
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Sweet. What he ^^^^^^^said :)
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Yummy!! ;D
Nick
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We discussed the choices and had "almost" settled on a fairly mild combination with an emphasis on good manners and street driveability. Then he decided to step up into a more serious package overall. Guy after my own heart :)
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For forty years I've wanted to do this. Not the time to be timid. Funny thing, for some reason I can't explain, it had to be an FE. A 460 wouldn't do.