FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: 428Marauder on March 02, 2015, 09:09:09 PM
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Sorry to bother you guys with boring stuff again. I have been working in this car for years, had it to multiple mechanics, they all charge me a lot of money, and it never runs well for very long. Lately, I am pretty sure the trans is going out on the car, and I was going to take it in this morning. Been stting for a couple months, but I start it once a week or so. started it yesterday and it started and ran fine for 5 minutes. This morning it started, and then stalled on me. Then wouldn't stay running, like it was out of gas. It's not out of gas, but I did discover a fuel leak at the pump. When I got the motor it was run with an electric pump, but I switched it back to manual about a year ago. Seems better, but still problems. i replaced the points myself and then 2000 miles later some jerk mechanic charged me like $100 in parts and labor to replace them again.
Anyway, the car was running pretty well. Still has stalled on me once, but started right back up. I was fullly ecxpecting to drive her to the mechanic this morning for the trans swap. Different mechanic. Another one a friend suggested to me is why the car has been sitting for 3 months. Been waiting.
I've done everything, gas pump,,fuel filter, custom exhaust, aluminum radiator, insulated my fuel lines, re built the carb, wires .... think I did plugs, not sure. I have no idea what could be wrong. Could it just be fouled plugs? it would be a gradual thing though, right? When she runs, she's great, besides that trans issues.
Oh yeah, it's a 428 4bbl with a C6.
Suck, bang, blow ... as they say. Not getting enough bang.
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Could a low charge on the battery ... nah, right, no reason to charge the battery if it cranks and goes, I'll put the charger on it, maybe get new points again, whhat is that like $10 at autozone, and try and spray some carb cleaner in there. It's weird it will idle, but you give it gas ... phhlifhouph... Dies out.
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Sometimes the vacuum advance quits working properly, and when you mash the acclerator pedal, the engine goes very lean and dies/back fires. If it will keep running and loads up/gets very rich and black smoke comes out the exhaust, you may have a weak coil, dead plugs, or bad fuel. Today's fuel will gum up the carb if it sits long and evaporates from the carb. Sitting is the worst thing for a carbureted engine because of today's fuel is formulated for high pressure efi systems. Joe-JDC
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Coil has been replaced as well, a couple years ago. Yeah, it's something to do with it sitting too long. No smoke issues.
Thanks for your response.
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Joe is right about the fuel. Having the same fuel in there for months can cause some issues, sometimes not. When it does, it can be a real pain just trying to keep it running for a few seconds. Being a little more time specific about the starting/dieing problem could help pinpoint it more. In certain climates this time of year, ice build-up can happen pretty quickly, like in about 20-30 seconds, on a carb, and it will fight you tooth and nail until it gets enough heat built up to unfrost it. It's easily recognizable by seeing a light frost on the outside of the carb, usually starting about the middle of the carb body and extending down to the base. Most heat risers have long since quit working, and that is what they were designed to do, heat the air going in so it doesn't frost up.
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Wow, you guys are smart. Yeah, I am in Arizona and a cold and wet storm has just moved in. The type that will fog up your windows, but no ice.
Usually a really dry climate, running no choke, prolly just the weather, battery charge, being low, etc.
BUT ... that being said, add an electric choke? Be nice to not have any more stalling issues.
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All good stuff. When I go back to the start of your post I see where you've been starting it about once a week and not driving it. It is very possible that you've got some fouled plugs from too much fuel and never getting up to temp. You stated that you weren't sure if you did the plugs, probably wouldn't hurt to look at them as a possible problem source.
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Especially if they are Champion plugs, lol....I would guess it is fuel related more so than ignition. Accelerator pump not working or a real bad vacuum leak.
Nick
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Plugs are one thing where, it's easier and cheaper for me to just get a "tune up". Than wrench in them myself. Can't remember replacing them. Next on the list for sure. Ok, not Champion?
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Gappage?
It's not a question of keeping to original. if an MSD iginiton would solve my problems, I would be fine with that. Need more bang. Suck and blow, no problem. Not enough bang.
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Lots of reason but....1st thing I'd check is your pump shot.
Warm it up, shut it off and pop the air cleaner. Hit the throttle quickly wide open while looking into the primary side. One should see a strong shot of gas going into the venutri area. If not, start pulling the float bowls and accelerator pump cover to look for crap and/or a damaged acc. pump diaphragm.
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Plugs are one thing where, it's easier and cheaper for me to just get a "tune up". Than wrench in them myself. Can't remember replacing them. Next on the list for sure. Ok, not Champion?
If I get the just of this, you're relaying what you've paid mechanics to do, not having done the work yourself? Without direct involvement (or willingness to do so) and knowledge of exactly what has been done, and how, it will be near impossible to help you out. Telling you to tell a mechanic what to do is something that can/will get expensive quick. Not putting you down, just trying to avoid you throwing a bunch of money at an unknown problem by a bunch of guesswork. If you could find somebody who actually is good with older engines, that would be to your best advantage. Just my opinion.
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I have seen a bad ignition condenser do this, if it is still has points change the condenser and file the points.
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I have seen a bad ignition condenser do this, if it is still has points change the condenser and file the points.
True enough. Helped a friend out a few months back with his old (is there any other kind? ::)) 8N tractor. He'd tuned it up, wouldn't run or idle right. Had him put the old condensor back on and it ran smooth. Not the first time I'd seen that.
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had a condenser do that on a 289, swore it was a fuel problem.
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Yeah, now it wont even idle for more than a couple seconds. Condenser is cheap and easy to do, so I will try that.
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I noticed the coil is hot to the touch. I assume it's from repeated cranking, but does that signal a coil problem?
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I noticed the coil is hot to the touch. I assume it's from repeated cranking, but does that signal a coil problem?
It could be either the coil or condenser....a hot coil usually means the spark isn't going where it should. Check the button (at the coil position) under the ditzy cap as well.
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Sometimes
Sometimes when you buy a cheapo coil and sometimes the cheapo coil will
catch on fire. :o
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What would be a good replacement coil for a 428?
ETA: I realized I had left the key turned on, explaining the hot coil. Let it cool down and now it idles again, but dies, esp. when I give it gas. Will try condeser next.
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A coil exploded for me once when i forgot to
turn of the ignition on a dunebuggy :o
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you could use an msd blaster coil , but you may need to check the fuel pickup in the tank , if it has a plastic sock - screen , you need to take it off cuz the ethanol in the gas eats at the plastic and it gets gummy , and restricts fuel flow . I always put a fuel stabilizer in mine .. Just my 2 cents .. Bud
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Are you sure its getting gas? disconnect line at carb and ruin. into container it should move a lot of gas on every
Revolution.
accelerator pump diaphragms get very stiff causing reduced or no pump shot
Rig up wire from cylinderand watch it spark while idling, then give it some gas and see what happens as long a there is sparking it will probably light off mixture in a stock engine
A bad distributor cap can cause this by the spark going to a cylinder with no compression due to carbon tracking
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It takes very little gas for even a gas pig to idle so I doubt it is gas unless of course
it has no gas in the carb at all.
I say take the points out and put a Pertronix module in.
At the very least you will be rid of those points, but I believe it is an electrical
fault and you have two issues.
1. Your still using points.
2. You have a weak ground somewhere.
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Are you sure its getting gas? disconnect line at carb and ruin. into container it should move a lot of gas on every
Revolution.
accelerator pump diaphragms get very stiff causing reduced or no pump shot
Rig up wire from cylinderand watch it spark while idling, then give it some gas and see what happens as long a there is sparking it will probably light off mixture in a stock engine
A bad distributor cap can cause this by the spark going to a cylinder with no compression due to carbon tracking
Ok, tried the fuel line thing, one crank, gushung gas, so the pump is good. Replaced the condenser, so that's good, cleaned up the points, chargd up the battery. If I prime the carb it starts and sounds good, but then dies if I give it gas, or let it idle for about ten seconds. Runs and sounds good, when it runs, just dies right away. Stumped.
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Get your self a big syringe, bigger the better. Prime the carb with it, when you get it to idle keep it primed with the syringe in the vent tube on the front of the carb. If it runs longer your carbs plugged with junk. Also they seafoam when the car sits for awhile. Works better than red stability IMH0, but the marine grade green stability seems OK.
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So it is running out of gas.
With it shut off and you look right down the carb, you have to pretty much climb up
on top of it and crank the carb does it shoot gas into the two front holes?
All four if it is a double pumper.
If not it is in the bowls. Float needle or float stuck Must take the bowels off and have a look.
Still say get rid of the points. ;D
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So it is running out of gas.
With it shut off and you look right down the carb, you have to pretty much climb up
on top of it and crank the carb does it shoot gas into the two front holes?
All four if it is a double pumper.
If not it is in the bowls. Float needle or float stuck Must take the bowels off and have a look.
Still say get rid of the points. ;D
I wouldn's say it SHOOTS gas, but I can see gas coming out. Dunno much about carbs. There are 4 philips screws across the front. That go in vertically through the top of the carb. Are those the ones I need tp remove to look inside it? As a temporary fix, would adding some kinda fuel stabilizer maybe do the trick? What would you guys suggest?
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Photo of carb:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/arizonaclassiccars/16726884741/
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You need a fresh carb. Period.
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You need a fresh carb. Period.
Why so sure? i had it rebuilt a couple years ago. Not many miles since.
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You said yourself your a little light on carb rebuilding on the fly.
It has already been taken apart at least once and does not work.
It's not going to get better the next time around unless an experienced carb guy has at it.
If someone who knows that carb is standing by to get it working then the best plan
is to start with a fresh one.
A carb is relatively easy thing to rebuild, but if you forget to get all the little parts in the right spot
then you run into the exact problem you have. It does not work right.
But hey have at it. Get a good kit and do some research and clear the table and take it a part.
Get a bucket to wash it in and a good diagram to put all the little parts in the right spot.
You could step up to a nice new Holley 650 and gain in all categories.
Bottom line, that carb is not working so you have to take it apart or get a different one.
Your money your call.
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Yeah, I dont have an extra $500 right now.
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Well we could do a community rebuild.
We need to know the exact Autolite that is.
Any and all numbers on it.
Should be a tag on it. If not that makes a little harder but still doable.
Still going to need a kit though.
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If you're paying someone $500 to rebuild that carb, you're getting ripped off.
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If you're paying someone $500 to rebuild that carb, you're getting ripped off.
No, I think I paid $100 or so to rebuild it. $500 would be the cost of a new Holley.
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Well we could do a community rebuild.
We need to know the exact Autolite that is.
Any and all numbers on it.
Should be a tag on it. If not that makes a little harder but still doable.
Still going to need a kit though.
I have another car with a 390 that has the original carb with tag. No tag on my current carb.
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Can't be certain but that carb in the picture is early 70's.
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Maybe I should pick this up:
https://tucson.craigslist.org/pts/4853960178.html
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Not sure that will work for you.
That is a spread bore Holley.
As is the Autolite but it has smaller throttle blades so it will kind of open
into the C6 intake in the picture.
Probably the best plan for long term enjoyment would be to find a good used
Holley square bore in the 650 range with vacuum secondary's and even if it needs a kit
you should be into it for a very modest price.
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Something like this?
https://tucson.craigslist.org/pts/4886203777.html
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Yes, that may work out nicely for you.
Most likely will need a kit, but it will be a pretty straight forward redo
with the proper kit.
The carb number on a Holley is normally stamped in the air horn.
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Ok, I will pick that up, and a kit, and at least I will get some exp on carb rebuildind.
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Unless you are an experienced carb person I would not buy that carb. If there are pieces and parts missing you will not realize it and still have a junky carb. Old carbs that have had multiple owners mounted on multiple engines are suspect. If you buy it, make sure the base is not warped with a straight edge.
Nick
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I completely disagree with you Nick.
He has to fix the carb issue.
He has already spent lots of money getting other guys to work on his car
and it does not run.
So he has to start fixing it himself. For his own sanity.
This a great little cheapo Holley to get his feet wet.
And it is missing the choke actuator, but you don't need a choke anyways.
Anything that carb needs can be bought for minimal cost.
At most he will have less than $100 bucks in it when he tries it for the first time.
And it will be a great learning experience.
There are enough guys on here to help him out with any question he may have.
I say go for it. You will not regret it
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Lol, that's cool Howie ;D I might be wrong but I would say that carb has been out in the weather for years. It looks clean but it shows rust and corrosion like it sat in the rain for years. The inside will be worse.
Nick
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So I went on Tucson CList
This may be a better deal. He has two Holley's for 75 bucks.
The Vette one looks pretty complete and the spare wont hurt ya.
Look at these up close.
You want to cycle the action on both ends to make sure they are free to move.
No serious rust issue, although your idea of rust and mine may vary.
That place looks as dry as a popcorn fart.
Where here for bubby. ;D
https://tucson.craigslist.org/pts/4911311874.html
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Or this. Gonna catch it from you Holley guys ;)
http://tucson.craigslist.org/pts/4911417933.html (http://tucson.craigslist.org/pts/4911417933.html)
Nick
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The 1406 Edel is a spread bore so I'm not sure if it will
fit on the C6 intake which is a 4 hole square bore intake.
Any one know for sure?
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1406 should be square bore.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-1406 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-1406)
Nick
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First somebody tell me what carb he currently has, I'm not familiar with it.
2nd was spark ever verified when it dies???
why get another carb just yet?
if carb was fine and now not, it may be as simple as needle and seat sticking/dirt not letting in more than a dribble of fuel.
also looks like fuel filter between fuel line and carb, clogged maybe.
personally I enjoy the challenge of figuring out what went wrong before throwing parts at a problem.
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It's an Autolite 4300.
Late 60's early 70's. No Tag.
It is about 430ish CFM and really a POS.
They never did work that good when new and over the decades it probably has got even worse. lol
He said that the engine runs good when he pours gas in the carb.
So I would say it's got spark and air, but no fuel.
I believe his resources are best used to do a budget upgrade to a better carb.
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If I was to buy a new carb, say in the $300 or less range, what would you guys suggest?
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You say it dies when you give it gas but idles fine?
Can be cloged jets on the secondary ports
they open but there is no gas there
very comon on cars that have sat for a long time
Last time it hapened for me was on a 65 mustang
that a was owned by a old man that never opened the
secondarys :D. You know the type 40 mph in the middle
of the road, Car dented on every corner front and rear
bumper twisted like pretsels ;D ;D
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No, it also dies after idling for about 10 seconds.
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hard to see in the pic of the carb but is there
a filter on the inlet of the carb?it treaded in to
the carb and you mount the fuelhose on the
other end of the filter?
This filter is a brass filter that stops water and
after a while its ful of wather and other crap
the engine stalls and gas slowly enter the carb
from the preassure in gas line so after a while
you can restart it and it runs on the gas in the
carb but new gas is not entering fast enough
remove and blow clean with air from the carb
side of the filter
you should be able to blow through the filter with your mouth
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Yes, I replaced the filter recently. It's hard to see because I wrapped it in black electricians tape for insulation.
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If you have water in the tank the filter fills up quickly
i had that problem on a LTD i bought that was not used
for ten years before i bought it had to unscrew the filter
and pour out the water every mile on my way home
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I doubt it, but I also added some Heet in case there is water in the system.
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True story, played poker tonight with a $100 and ran it up to $400 with the idea that I need money for a new carb. This car, is like almost cursed or something. Ran me over and pushed me through a gate one time when it slipped outta gear, engine has caught fire multiple times, have been shocked by it, have a scar on my forehead from walking into the corner of the open trunk lid, in a hurry to do something. But, when the car needs something, and I go play cards to get the money, it always seems to work out. "The car that poker built.", I call it. Kinda spooky.
So, let's get back to opinions on a new $300 carb.
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The car itself is like a unicorn. 1965 Mecury Park Lane in, a Mercury only color, "Tiffany Blue" with a black convertible top. Now, they made a out 3000 total, 65 Park Lane Convertibles, it's estimated a third were bucket seat versions, that's really the only breakdown ... So many lost records,,you can't get a marti report on a 65 Merc. So, I tink there were 2005 split bench versions, most of those would be black, red, white and what are you left with ... Maybe 5 that were ever made in "Tiffany Blue".
I saved this car, and brought it to Arizona as a rusty POS from the Northwest, because I think it may be the only one left that exists, just based on model and color code. Had a 72 truck motor in it when I got it. Think that motor had a Holley, I shoulda kept it ... but, it's been a long story trying to get this car to run right. The good news, is when I figure it all out, everything else is new.
Had multiple parts cars. 428 came from one. still have one, original z code Marauder fastback. Not rare, white with a red interior. Time capsule. For sale. Seized, original z code 390 super marauder engine. Would be fun to rebuild that motor, period correct for the convertible, but right now, I just want to get her back on the road.
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Click on the link attached to my #49 reply, that should do just fine. If you don't need/want the choke, just adjust it full open. I like the Edelbrock carbs, they are priced right, simple and they work.
Nick
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If I was to buy a new carb, say in the $300 or less range, what would you guys suggest?
Probably the cheapest option is a Holley 4160 Aluminum job.
The fuel line hook up will be pretty close to where your fuel line is now
so you should be able to stick it on fairly easy and cheap.
It has a bunch of throttle hook up options on the crank and usually a small bit of
rigging will get you working throttle.
I'm not against Edelbrocks, I'm just not geared up for them so I don't consider them an option. ;D
http://www.summitracing.com/int/search/department/air-fuel-delivery/section/carburetors-accessories/part-type/carburetors/cfm/600/brand/holley?N=4294951509%2B4294949628%2B4294921892%2B4294881237%2B400178&SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Ascending
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Ok, I got the Holley, went ahead and put it in but now I am having a couple issues:
1. if I clip in the kickdown linkage, where I think it goes, I have no play in my throttle cable, gas pedal is too the floor all the time.
2. If I undo the kickdown, even without giving the car gas, it starts, but runs like it is being floored. I did this twice and shut it off right away.
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Feel free to send me pictures at my email and see if we can
get something working for you.
390fairlane@gmail.com
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Hmmm.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/arizonaclassiccars/16584205709/
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The kick down cable should have no bearing on the idle.
If it is unhooked it should idle at what ever you set it at.
Something is holding the throttle blades open?
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The kick down cable should have no bearing on the idle.
If it is unhooked it should idle at what ever you set it at.
Something is holding the throttle blades open?
You can see the old spring, in the photo. It clips to a thing with notches in it to make it adjustable. You can also see the unatached kickdown lever in the photo. According to the instructions, I need to "install the transmissin kickdown screw" and then there is a picture, and my carb does not have that screw. Did not come in the bag of parts. And then I am supposed to remove the "lock out screw" and then I am supposed to install the "kickdown spring between the kickdown lever and spring perch."
What kickdown spring?
Also, there seems to be 3 different places to mount the knob screw that the throttle cable clips to. Not sure I have the right hole.
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Just joined the site. It has been a few years since I have done much FE work so I am a little rusty. If this car is having trouble at idle and also has a transmission problem is it possible that it has a vacuum line leaking. If it is a larger line near the carb you can usually hear it whistle but if it is near the transmission modulator you won't. If the car will idle with the choke partially closed it means there is vacuum leak or lack of fuel thru the carb. With the motor running spray all of the vacuum lines and around the base of the carb with carb cleaner. If there is a vacuum leak the motor will change RPM's when you find the leak. Be carefully not to spray the cleaner on plastic or the cars finish.
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Hmmm.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/arizonaclassiccars/16584205709/
Here is what a Ford's carb and trans kickdown (KD) linkage should look like. You can see the ends of a small spring that holds the KD linkage. Always rig up the throttle cable 1st and only then install the KD linkage. As noted above, the KD linkage should never hold the throttle open...OR....closed.
https://www.supermotors.net/getfile/833526/fullsize/004.jpg
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I do not have this screw, or this spring. I think I may be missing some parts.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/arizonaclassiccars/16151220853/
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Ok, I almost got it. I had the tensioner spring in the wrong place and I had to adjust the throttle cable a little bit and I removed the "lock out screw" but apparently I need a "spring and perch kit" in order to get the kickdown correctly installed.
It actually sounds great, and runs a ton better. Seems a little fast, but I am sure that's just an adjustment. Perhaps, what I thought were transmission problems were carb problems all along. Will get that kit and find out.
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The picture you posted shows the linkage and return spring just backwards from where it should be. Install the linkage ball in the small hole just below the large hole that your return spring is in. Then attach your return spring to the very bottom hole that your linkage is in now. You will need to loosen your throttle cable housing clamp and adjust the throw to match your throttle peddle.
Nick
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Ok, runs pretty good, besides the kickdown. Still need that kit. It's almost too fast. i tried adjusting the curb idle screw and noticed no real difference. Needs tuning now. Feels like it wants to go, even when I apply the brakes.
It now, in park seems like it idles fast, but OK in drive, besides that you have to have the brakes down completelly or it wants to go. And now it knda does a sputter when I shut it off. i know the timing can be adjusted by rotating the distributor, runs pretty great, actually, but just, pretty fast. Brakes now seem inadequate. To befair there is a 300 pound c6 trans in the trunk right now. But it's clear now that what I thought were trans problems were actually carb problems. Also means I can sell that spare trans, now that I know what the kickdown issue is. It makes so much sense now! Thanks guys for your help and patience!
There is a number I can call for Holley to help me tune it. With the extra money, I am gonna buy new rear leaf springs. Is that a do it yourself in the gravel job, or should I go to a shop for this one, and do the shocks while I am at it? Not really an FE related question, but in general, does it make it any easier to do the shocks if you do the rear leaf springs at the same time?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jml3G3FkTIs
You tell me if it sounds kinda, fast, for lack of a better word. Not that I don't want the car to be fast, because that isn't the problem. Motor that big, make a big heavy car like this fast.
I feel so old. Think I should prolly, "tone it down a little". Does it sound good to you guys?
It is fast, even without the kickdown fully functional.
I feel kinda stupid, been so careful about insulating fuel lines and stuff, trying to make this motor run right with that carb ... like I said, I am not a carb guy, but I am learning.
NOTE: I do not have the electric choke hooked up yet, because I am also not an "electric" guy and the instructions say not to wire it to the coil. Choke? We don't need no stinkin choke, but it's there, and it's electric, so that cost me like $10 more. Figured it's worth it since there is no cable for the manual choke anyway.
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Did you adjust the choke to full open? If not, the little bell-crank for fast idle will be up on the cam for increased idle speed. Loosen the three small screws on the black plastic choke housing and rotate it until the choke butterfly is open, be sure and hold the throttle open a small amount at the same time. The engine sounds good!
Nick
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Sounds like you got that pesky problem cleared up.
And your right "You don't need no stinkin choke"
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If you decide to rewire it, correct, don't use the coil circuit.
Two reasons. It's unfused and you may not be getting your full 12 volts if there is a resistor inline.
Find a switched 12 volt circuit.
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Hey Howie whats a choke , lol have 3 carbs and none have a choke ,, Bud