FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: aarons428 on December 24, 2011, 04:44:02 PM
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I have had my 428 for quite a number of years now but i REALLY don't know much about how to make them really run. He is a run down on what i have so far.
66 428 4v out of a 66 2door LTD(now deceased)
rebuilt in 1996
30 over bore
10/10 crank
stock compression 10.5
out of the box Edy heads
streetmaster single plane intake (previously modified not by me)
Holley 850 double pumper
crower cam 16255
280/288 duration
549/550 lift
108 centerline
duration @.050 224/232
last but not least 125 shot of nitrous
hooker supercomp headers
I am pulling the motor out and I'm going to tear it down to inspect for any wear. i have never had the oil pan off this motor since it was rebuilt in 96. the mods have come over time since the rebuild. This is mainly a good day beat around truck that goes to the drag strip a few times a year. I really have no "problems" with the motor other than a little noise at steady throttle. Nitrous has only been on the motor for 3 years.
What mods should i do to the oiling system when i have it apart if any. it already has a high volume pump on it. oil pressure is about 75ish when cold and 20plus when hot.
I would like to make a little more NA power. I am on a small budget. what would help me the most cam, higher compression, different carb????? I don't want to turn this motor over 6000rpms.
This motor is in a 65 f-100 swb that weighs about 3450lbs.
ANY info will be great. please feel free to ask any questions you may have on this. Don't bash me to hard I'm still learning. THANKS FOR YOUR HELP.
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What rearend gears?
What transmission?
What rpm converter if automatic?
What ET withough nitrous?
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9in ford 4.10 mini spool
315/60-15 mickey thompson ET Streets
c-6 trans 3000 stall wide ratio gear set(4r100)
the last time i ran just the motor it was 13.78@105 and 12.45@108 on the bottle
since then i rejetted and ran 11.96@110 on the bottle
didnt get to make a run on just the motor
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Something seems amiss on the qtr mile times off the bottle.
The mph should have gotten you into the 12's naturally aspriated.
Was traction a problem on the 13.78 at 105 run?
Do you remember what you shifted at?
My analyzer has you hitting 5360 at the end of the qtr mile, does that sound about right?
29.9" tall tires, 4.11 gears and 105 mph is around 4800, but I guess DRA add converter slippage rpm.
Sorry for all the questions, but it will make it easier for people to suggest appropriate parts such as cams.
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no problem with questions
I went and got my time slips
pretune on nitrous
60ft 1.6673
1/8 et 7.8067
1000et 10.2383
1/4 et 12.45
1/4 mph 104.85
pretune on motor
60 ft 1.8469
1/8 et 8.6780
1000 et 11.3574
1/4 et 13.7847
1/4 mph 95.74
better tune on nitrous
60 ft 1.631
1/8 et 7.558
1000et 9.936
1/4 et 11.963
1/4 mph 110.87
sorry for the wrong post earlier
for the most part not much of traction issue hooks hard
I shift at about 5800-6000
through the traps at about 5500 crappy tach need new one
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For oiling mods I would make sure you have an oil pan with baffles and extra oil capacity.
I would run the larger oil pump drive.
I would also enlarge and smooth the oil pump passage where the oil pump bolts on. I don't recall the size, maybe someone will chime in.
On the block after pulling the heads I would check the deck height. If the pistons are down in the hole I would have it decked to bring them up to the top.
I would measure all four corners to see what you get and go from there.
I'm assuming you've done something with the rockershafts, if not I would add spacers and end stands.
You could have a mild port and clean up done on the Edelbrock heads, might be more than your budget though.
It all depends on what you want to spend.
I think you could go a bigger cam, something around 230ish dur at .050 hydraulic, or 240ish dur at .050 solid.
I'll let others chime in on the camshaft specs.
And as long as you have it apart I would degree the cam, new or old.
Lastly I would highly recommend buying Jay Brown's book and Barry Rabotnick's book.
http://fepower.net/GFEIC.html
http://www.survivalmotorsports.com/
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Sounds like a bit of a mismatch between the low duration cam and possible low compression (which work together) and the 850 double pumper and 3000 converter (which work together). I tend to agree on the idea of decking/checking the pistons deck clearance, along with the cam suggestions as to more intake duration. And I would probably stress getting a really good valve job and some bowl blending work for the heads - a fair amount to be gained there.
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First off cool truck.... Are you sure its 3450? My 76 is 3900 with me in it and a full tank. Anyway, I wish my truck was that light. I pretty much agree with everything that's been said already. Get the 428 up to a true 10.5 to 1 compression ratio if it isn't already, zero deck the block, and mill the heads as necessary to get there. Are you running just pump gas? Get a good valve job done while the heads are at the shop. I'd add 10-15 degrees of @ .050 duration and try to get closer to 0.600 net lift. Good shafts, rockers, and end stands are recommended. Lastly I'd get the converter restalled to at least 4000. Should be able to run bottom twelves or high elevens, and still drive it anywhere. Hope this helps.
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This motor right now doesn't pull very hard past 5500rpms. How hard can i turn a "stock" bottom end? i am up for ANY suggestion for a cam thinking of a solid instead of a hydraulic.
As far as the weight. torino front clip, short wheel base, fuel cell in the back, home made latter bars with airbags on the rear, early bronco 9in housing, It is no more than 3500lbs i weighed it this summer.
I'm not so sure about 4000 stall but i will check with my converter company. I work for a small tranny shop so i get stuff for cost.
Sorry to say but I'm on a small budjet so i think a cam change and decking the block is more along the lines right now. is this along the right lines? I would just love to build the hell out of this but the family comes first.
I'm also working on trying to get two 428 irrigation engines but one has a hole in the block from a rod and the other has a hole in the timing cover from the timing chain coming apart PLUS both have been outside for a few years.
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Well if you want to go bigger on the cam you have to match the converter to it. Barry touched on this in his post.... the combo has to be matched for best performance. For instance I run a converter that stalls to 4200 on the Transbrake with the throttle wide open and no two step. My engine is smaller than yours and has a bigger cam than yours. I still drive it on the street and don't have any problems with heat. If that's what your worried about? I still pull a trailer on occasion with this truck. I think you could use a higher stall converter with your current cam. As far your stock bottom end goes. How stock is it? Its really hard to put a limit on it without knowing exactly whats in it. If its got stock 35 year old rod bolts in it I wouldn't turn it over 5000. If its got arp bolts in it I wouldn't turn it much over 6000. That's just one example of one unknown piece of the puzzle. Hope this helps.
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the bottom end is STOCK the motor was rebuilt in 1996 back to stock specs with no intent on racing. But that all changed a couple years after i had it rebuilt. original everything other than new pistons.
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Not to change the subject on this post, but what are you guys doing for the rear suspension set-up's on your trucks? Blue F100FE, your truck flat hauls! Very impressive for the weight you are carrying!
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Not to change the subject on this post, but what are you guys doing for the rear suspension set-up's on your trucks? Blue F100FE, your truck flat hauls! Very impressive for the weight you are carrying!
On my truck i have home built a "latter bar" set up with air bags and shocks nothing special.
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Got any pics of your setup? Sounds like it works well. I'm doing a 71 F100 "STD" bed truck, and kicking around some different ideas on the rear susp. setup..........
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Im using stock cut leafs and rancho shocks with some home made slapper/ladder bars. 90/10 shocks up front.
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i have my motor out of my truck and have it 90% apart so far so good.
What arp rod bolts should i get?
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If your going to change out the bolts then you should really
have the rods sized and re bushed.
Make sure you clean the pins before you knock them through the piston.
They get a ridge built up and it can score the piston pin hole.
Oven cleaner works great. Don't leave it on long though.
Use your piston pin when they size the bushing.
With stock 428 rods these are just fine.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-155-6002/
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when should i check piston to deck hight? Before or after the rod recondition.
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Before or after the rod recondition shouldn't matter; the rod length shouldn't change by any significant amount due to the reconditioning.
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I would check before you slide the pistons out so you could figure out where your compression was exactly. This will give you a baseline to make decisions on changes and will help to make guesses on how much the changes will help. I would measure cylinders 1-4-5-8 to get an idea of how much the block needs to be decked. The rod bolts are arp-155-6002 . Hope this helps
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Well i found out some BAD news today. I have a very bad gouge down one cylinder prolly from the piston pin. I will pull the rest if the motor down tomorrow to see what happened.
Now what do i do? I think it will need to be sleeved. I feel sick. I didnt want to spend this kind of money.
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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Maybe, maybe not. I'd reserve judgement until your shop sees it as it may clean up with an overbore.
Oophs! I just went back to Page 1 and now see the bore is already +.030.
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Well i found out some BAD news today. I have a very bad gouge down one cylinder prolly from the piston pin. I will pull the rest if the motor down tomorrow to see what happened.
Now what do i do? I think it will need to be sleeved. I feel sick. I didnt want to spend this kind of money.
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
If the block needs to be sleeved it probably won't be that expensive to just do one. And don't be afraid of the sleeves; I've run a sleeved 428 since the early 1980s with absolutely no issues.
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Well i got the rest of my motor apart. :'(
1 of the pistons 2in of the top ring is shattered and 2 more pistons the top ring is broke into many pieces. I am assuming it is because cheap parts that have been flogged for two many years.
Number 8 cylinder the piston pin retainer is missing and the pin has wore a good sized groove down the the cylinder wall which will need to be sleeved. How far can a 428 be bored safely. the other cylinders are scufffed a bit. I did find the majority of the pin retainer in the oil pan.
For some reason #1 and #8 rod bearings are trashed but the rest are fine??????? The second and third main bearings are showing some copper but the rest look brand new. Is this odd or normal.
I was hoping to get this motor back together for cheap but now it will take a couple of years to get it back up to snuff.
I am up for suggestions on the bottom end do i trust the stock or go forged bottom?
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You did say you put the NOS to it. ::)
That will beat a set of rings up and put some stress on the bearings.
If your going to spray your going to pay.
Stock cast pistons are not up to spray on a regular habit.
A sonic check will give you a good map and you can get a pretty good idea
of how much wall you have by measuring the distance between the bores and subtracting
half that from the bore spacing which is 4.63 inchs-the bore.
ie: 4.63-4.160=0.47/2=0.235-0.125(which is half the distance between the bores roughly)=0.110".
You will have to gauge your block to find the exact distance between the bores.
It's call a drill bit test.
Bottom line I sprayed a 40 over 428 block until I end up with what you have.
Busted pistons, broke ass rings and wallowed out bearings.
I plan on doing that to a 427 Genesis too. ::)
Hope you you get it back running.
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On the broken rings, usually only a few things cause broken rings. Using heavy shots of nitrous can cause the top rings end-butt. Check to see if the top ring ends are shiny or polished, indicating butting due to insufficient end gap clearance. Most ring makers do advise btw opening up the top ring gap from the standard clearance when using gas. 'Course, even without butted rings, using gas as noted above can and often will break rings (and worse) all on its own!
Btw, I'd carefully inspect that piston and pin that lost the end clip. It's entirely likely that you lost the clip not due to poor assembly but a lean-out on that cylinder causing the pin to pound it out due to heavy detonation. If the rings lands on any of pistons have collapsed (rings won't spin in the land) one can bet it's solely due to a bad nitrous tuneup.