FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: jayb on December 19, 2014, 03:34:36 PM
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Despite the current delays at the foundry, I've been relatively happy with how the FE intake adapter project has gone over the last year or so. By March or April I'm hoping to be all caught up on deliveries of these, and sometime in January I expect to put the new timing covers up for sale. So, I'm looking to start another casting project this year, and one that comes to mind right away is a dedicated intake manifold top, or upper manifold, to fit on the intake adapter.
Doing a dedicated upper manifold for my adapter has some advantages over using a standard 351C intake. One advantage has to do with port alignment; because of the smaller bore spacing of a 351C engine, the outboard ports in the adapter are angled somewhat to get the #1, #4, #5, and #8 ports in the heads to line up with the same ports in the 351C manifold. This doesn't seem to have a major effect on power production up to 650 horsepower or so, but of course at the limit a straighter port is better, and since I can easily change the porting programs for the adapter, I could cast a custom upper manifold to fit without requiring the angled ports. I also like the idea of making the upper manifold a two piece unit, that could be split apart down the center of the plenum for porting purposes. And with control of the casting, I could add material to allow widening the intake ports towards the center of the engine, and also to raise them if desired. Material could also be added to allow machining holes for fuel injectors in case EFI was used, and also to leave enough material at the flange so that the upper manifold would work with either the standard medium riser adapter, or the high riser adapter. Finally, with control of both the intake adapter and the upper manifold, I could cut the upper manifold for O-ring grooves, and use O-rings to seal the upper manifold to the intake adapter, eliminating the need for another set of gaskets.
I've been thinking about this for a few months now, and the problem that I've been wrestling with is what upper manifold to build. I have three different ones in mind, and at some point I may end up building all three, but for now I just need to get started on the design and tooling for one of them. So, I put the poll up to get some feedback from forum members on which one is of most interest. Here are some details on the upper manifolds I'm considering:
** Single Plane Dominator Flanged Spider Intake - This would be similar to an Edelbrock Victor intake in appearance, but it would end up being quite a bit taller, at least 2" and maybe more. Designed for 4500-8500 RPM operation with a Dominator carb. The idea is to be a step above the Victor in single plane performance.
** 2X4 Single Plane Intake Similar to a Tunnel Wedge - This would be an upper manifold that basically duplicated the design and performance of the tunnel wedge intake, and also duplicated the carb position so that it would fit under the hood of most FE vehicles. I would envision a carb mounting pad that would allow the standard 4150 carb arrangement, or mounting 4150 carbs sideways so that a couple of double pumpers could be used if desired. And of course the carbs would be spaced so that the ubiquitous oval air cleaners would fit.
** 2X4 Tunnel Ram, in Sheet Metal Intake Style - this upper manifold would feature straight runners and a V-shaped plenum like a new sheet metal intake, but would be cast aluminum instead. It would probably be a three piece design, with a billet aluminum top and cast runners/plenum. I'd design it to work with the factory distributor location, rather than with an offset distributor. Runner length would be optimized for tuning at 7000 RPM.
All of these upper manifolds would have the features described earlier. One caveat, though, is that I don't know for sure if, or when, I'd make one of these upper manifolds available. Its something I'd like to do, but its tough to predict availability of the time and funds for this kind of project. So, no promises of any sort on this.
Which manifold do you think I should build?
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I say go for the tunnel ram Jay. Pro Street seems to be making a come-back, so they want something sticking out of the hood.
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Since you have asked, be aware that BBM is casting a new Tunnel Wedge intake for the FE that matches their new heads. It is supposed to have a smaller cross section in the runners for better velocity. If so, then you would lose a lot of potential buyers there. The high rise single four to be a step above the Victor would be nice for racing, but limited for street use because of the hood clearance issues. A tunnel ram is still race/show car/some street usage, and not allowed in some states on the street for visibility issues, smog requirements, etc. Not to be negative, but a good single 4V will probably sell more units, but there are those of us who would still want a TW style intake that is removeable. Joe-JDC
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I like option #2. Even though not ideal, there are lots of single 4 options but only a tunnel ram option for the 2x4. A tunnel wedge style intake would be where I would start.
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M & M also already make a Cleveland tunnel ram like you described, albeit expensive, http://www.racingjunk.com/Intake-Manifolds/1553816/SB2.2-SPLAYED-VALVE-SBX-CAST-TUNNEL-RAM.html
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I know that many of us in FE land are using the engines to power 2 ton behemoths, and a lot of us use the vehicles predominantly for the street, two applications that favor the production of low to mid range torque as opposed to top end horsepower. That said, the idea of a very long runner dual plane, something along the lines of the now defunct McFarland Tork-Link (see links http://www.latemodelracer.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1327786043 , http://www.hotrod.com/events/coverage/0301phr-rmouse/ ) that was somewhat popular in the circle track world for SBC's sounds very, very appealing, and I think it would definitely have a market. Weiand did something similar for the Mopar guys with a long runner 6 pack intake too (see link http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?53612-WTB-weiand-tunnel-ram-6-pack-intake ).
Granted, hood room many be an issue depending on how tall the manifold would be designed to be, but for the buyer considering a dedicated race style spider type intake anyway, I can't see how that would be a deal breaker.
Having the option of switching between a dual plane and a single plane, or even a dual quad intake, for tuning and driveability purposes could help this adapter find it's way into that many more peoples garages. Right now there are no dual plane intakes on the market that could be made to be functional with the manifold adapter. The Blue Thunder intake, which is based on the old Ford Power Parts over the counter intake, has the ports arranged in a such a format that it would cause distributor interference issues.
As a guy who drives 2 ton behemoths on the street, having an option that would promote low end and mid range torque for around town, while being able to swap to a combo set up for glory runs in an hour or less without loss of fluids, would be the icing on the cake!
Brett
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I will go a different way a new tri power with 3 500 holleys that will work on a big fe on the street . Things have come a long way sence 1961. They still look good when you open the hood.
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Speaking only from my own requirements, it would be a toss up between option #2 and #3. I'm on the list for one of Jay's high riser intake adapters and plan to use it on my race engine. So, since I plan on making maximum power at roughly 7000rpm, I guess my preference would be for option #3. But, I do like the look of the tunnel wedge and to have the option of using a pair of sideways mounted double pumpers would be great.
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I'd be more interested in the tunnel ram...but I gotta ask, how much power would it be worth over the Weiand unit in a 7000rpm limited motor? By that I mean under 500cu.in., under .700 lift, 12:1 max compression. You know...a normal grocery getter.
If I didn't have junk stick'n out'a my hood...I'd forget there's a motor in there!
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I'd be more interested in the tunnel ram...but I gotta ask, how much power would it be worth over the Weiand unit in a 7000rpm limited motor? By that I mean under 500cu.in., under .700 lift, 12:1 max compression. You know...a normal grocery getter.
If I didn't have junk stick'n out'a my hood...I'd forget there's a motor in there!
LOL! I'm right with you on the metal protruding through the hood. Was always partial to those 8 injector stacks coming through the hood of my Galaxie. Truth be told, I don't know how much power, if any, a sheet metal style manifold would make over the Weiand tunnel ram and 351C intake adapter. I suppose it would depend on the engine. I'd be leaning towards that intake because nobody else makes something like that for the FE...
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By your own book, the near impossible to find Dove cast tunnel ram was unmatched in power. If you are going through the hoops casting a top how much more elaborate is it to cast a copy of the Dove?.....
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I say the Tunnel Ram. Like you said Jay, that is the configuration that is not currently being produced for the FE. 1x4 single plane Dominators are being produced. Several Tunnel Wedges are being produced. The tunnel ram stands out in that respect.
I think it's really cool that you're making this stuff, Jay!
JMO,
paulie
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Id love a sheet metal tunnel ram. would you build injector tube bung drill outs in those??the removeable top would be cool for carbs or just a lid for those wanting to use fuel injection. I know i built my fuel injection tunnel ram but I would like a sheet metal one instead of the Weiand one :)
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I'd be interested in a valley mounted exhaust system to mount a turbo to, close to the head. Don't know if the heads could just be flipped side-to-side, or what might be involved in getting the intake vs. exhaust flow ratios to work in the flipped heads...just thinking.
Is an IR crossram not an option?
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Is an IR crossram not an option?
Actually, Borla has got that covered. They are working on adapting the IR runners from their 351W intake to my adapter. I delivered a copy of my intake adapter to them a few months ago. At the PRI show I got a chance to look over their 351W crossram and it looks like it would work fine on an FE, at least up to 600 HP or so. The IR crossram has eight individual castings for the runners; each one has its own throttle body and velocity stack. They are bolted to a common 351W base. Borla is planning to use the same runners, modified slightly so that they will bolt to my adapter.
There's some CAD drawings of what they are planning on page 32 of the FE intake adapter thread in the Member Projects section; link below:
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=683.msg15131#msg15131
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By your own book, the near impossible to find Dove cast tunnel ram was unmatched in power. If you are going through the hoops casting a top how much more elaborate is it to cast a copy of the Dove?.....
The Dove tunnel ram is an older design, like the Weiand. The runners are curved, not straight, to allow for the flat bottom plenum. My guess is, based on current race technology, that a manifold with straight runners and the V-shaped plenum would make more power, so I'd rather go with something like that.
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Id love a sheet metal tunnel ram. would you build injector tube bung drill outs in those??the removeable top would be cool for carbs or just a lid for those wanting to use fuel injection. I know i built my fuel injection tunnel ram but I would like a sheet metal one instead of the Weiand one :)
Just to be clear, Rick, I'm not talking about building a sheet metal intake. I'm talking about a cast aluminum intake, designed in the sheet metal intake style, with straight runners with a 2 or 3 degree taper towards a V-shaped plenum, like a sheet metal intake. I would definitely put locations for EFI injectors on the runners.
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I say the Tunnel Ram. Like you said Jay, that is the configuration that is not currently being produced for the FE. 1x4 single plane Dominatora are being produced. Several Tunnel Wedges are being produced. The tunnel ram stands out in that respect.
I think it's really cool that you're making this stuff, Jay!
JMO,
paulie
Thanks Paulie. Barry and I were talking at the PRI show, about dragging the FE into the 21st century, and I definitely want to be part of that...
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Actually, Borla has got that covered. They are working on adapting the IR runners from their 351W intake to my adapter. I delivered a copy of my intake adapter to them a few months ago. At the PRI show I got a chance to look over their 351W crossram and it looks like it would work fine on an FE, at least up to 600 HP or so. The IR crossram has eight individual castings for the runners; each one has its own throttle body and velocity stack. They are bolted to a common 351W base. Borla is planning to use the same runners, modified slightly so that they will bolt to my adapter.
There's some CAD drawings of what they are planning on page 32 of the FE intake adapter thread in the Member Projects section; link below:
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=683.msg15131#msg15131
I was thinking of just the runners component with mounts for webers. That way you're only paying for the unique part and not for easily-sourced TB parts, plus the Borla TBs look to be sized for sub-400 cubic inch engines, whereas 58mm Weber-style TBs are available now.
All that said, what's Borla' s projected pricing? $4,000?
[edit] did a google search and found Borla' s page on their crossram:
https://www.borlainduction.com/200064-v8-kit-ford-351w-cross-ram-60mm-air-horn.html
$6,500 without about $1,000 in nice-to-have options.
Selling like hotcakes I bet.
As far as a tunnel ram goes, it might be nice to be able to mount the injector (or nozzles) in the valley area, under the plenum. Don't know if there's room for that under a V-plenum or not.
Maybe make the plenum' s runner sides extra thick to use as Weber mounting flanges after cutting the top, front, and back of it off by crazy people.
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Just to be clear, Rick, I'm not talking about building a sheet metal intake. I'm talking about a cast aluminum intake, designed in the sheet metal intake style, with straight runners with a 2 or 3 degree taper towards a V-shaped plenum, like a sheet metal intake. I would definitely put locations for EFI injectors on the runners.
still would be nicer then a modified 351C tunnel ram.. I should of waited lol
(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff267/new_falcon_owner/351%20C%20tunnel%20ram%20fuel%20injection/20141215_193103.jpg)
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The I.R. crossram is mighty cool yet methinks it would have the same limited sales volume as either of the two tunnel ram intakes. As noted above, the tunnel rams are a good idea yet I do wonder how many you could move. The high end custom t-rams (think Hogan, etc.) are mighty fine pieces for the dedicated FE racers. Unless you could compete at a much lower price point for an equally strong intake, I don't see any advantage. On a cast t-ram, if the top were a flat aluminum or steel plate that you'd easily machine per order (2 sideways Holleys, 2 sideways Dominators, 2 in-line flat bowled Holleys, one Holley of either size, etc.) it would allow more user flexibility and would likely be cheaper that a cast top.
Link provided merely as an example of the top and low price;
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/drt-62420040?seid=srese1&gclid=CJGc3NiE1cICFe47Mgod5wsAsg
Jay, keep this up FE development and you will get me to whip out my Mach 1's 351W and get an FE!
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I would say the "current technology" tunnel ram, would make the most sense. For the same reason Jay & Paulie mentioned, that nothing "current" exists... and for that matter, nothing ever has for the high riser. The DOVE and Wieand are old tech and were designed 30+years ago, runner cross section and taper are wrong, plenum entries and the plenum itself same deal.
This sort of goes against my plan as I want a bad ass single plane Dominator to put on top of a high riser adapter that Jay is working on for me now ;D I have been racing with a suingle Dominator on a Victor with BT MR heads for several years, and on Edelbrocks for near a decade before that. I have purchased several uppers to modify buy they are all in need of some serious work to get the runners in the correct location. I won't put a SBF intake on unless it is cut up and modified and that is a big expense for tig welding aluminum. The port offset at #1 and #8 are just too great for me. I have a line on an intake that I think might work out much better, as far as port location and line of sight, but it is a proto type at this point and not yet available. I don't have the adapter in hand yet either, which makes it tough to mock up together and see if it will work better :o I am thinking it will still take modification as well as to the adapter, to make them (single Dominator and cast tunnel ram both to be available), to actually physically bolt on and line up (with porting and milling, hopefully no welding). Time will tell!
I think the best of both worlds would be to have a single Dominator and a tunnel ram, to change back and forth at will. That is the beauty of Jay's adapter. This would be a great experiment at the track on the same day, as the time required would be minimal if you had the fuel lines and linkage set-up to swap easily. The dyno is one thing, but the numbers on the boards at the end of the track tell it all. I know some combos will do just as well and even sometimes quicker with a big single 4 versus a tunnel ram and 2x4, although typically the 2x4 will have a higher MPH and certainly depending on "tons" of variables, be quicker as well. The dyno will almost always show more HP with the 2x4 but 60 ft and front half slower.
Another thing worth mentioning is that I feel the adapter makes the most sense with high riser heads (versus MR as there is a ton of choices out there already), since there are only a few intakes available and nothing really good. The DOVE stuff is not the best design and not available most of the time, and for BT heads, the OEM stuff won't work and it is from the 60's for tech as well. The reason the MR adapters sold so well is because they are cool 8) and because of the ease to change a dry upper intake, and the choices and cost effectiveness of all the 351C and other canted valve SBF intakes out there, the sky is the limit.
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still would be nicer then a modified 351C tunnel ram.. I should of waited lol
Well, you might still be waiting in a year or more. This stuff takes time, and you can use yours right away ;)
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I was thinking of just the runners component with mounts for webers. That way you're only paying for the unique part and not for easily-sourced TB parts, plus the Borla TBs look to be sized for sub-400 cubic inch engines, whereas 58mm Weber-style TBs are available now.
All that said, what's Borla' s projected pricing? $4,000?
[edit] did a google search and found Borla' s page on their crossram:
https://www.borlainduction.com/200064-v8-kit-ford-351w-cross-ram-60mm-air-horn.html
$6,500 without about $1,000 in nice-to-have options.
Selling like hotcakes I bet.
As far as a tunnel ram goes, it might be nice to be able to mount the injector (or nozzles) in the valley area, under the plenum. Don't know if there's room for that under a V-plenum or not.
Maybe make the plenum' s runner sides extra thick to use as Weber mounting flanges after cutting the top, front, and back of it off by crazy people.
I didn't know the Borla stuff was that expensive. Seems like a lot, despite the fact that it is a cool setup.
Do you have a link for a 58mm throttle body? I'd be interested in looking at that...
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Looking around found me this which just got me thinking...
http://www.carid.com/1992-chevy-corvette-performance-fuel-systems/bbk-performance-parts-power-plus-series-throttle-body-assembly-10960499.html?gclid=CL3J3JyV1cICFcbtMgod2j8ARQ
This seems pricey...
http://www.google.com/#q=58mm+throttle+body&tbm=shop&spd=15062330314932850922
But this is what I was mis-remembering, 56mm TBs:
http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=9_305
Or maybe?:
http://www.geneberg.com/product_info.php?cPath=300&products_id=1828
But if the runners were available would probably go with Jenvey:
http://www.jenvey.co.uk/home/twin-throttle-bodies/twin-bodies-dcoe-style-91mm-long/jenvey-dynamics/th-body-52-55mm-single-ths5xi
Their 70mm single-bore TB:
http://www.jenvey.co.uk/home/large-single-throttle-body/jenvey-dynamics/single-body-70mm-sfg70-0
These guys I don't know about, but their website has some nice pictures:
http://www.foxinjection.com/
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At the PRI show, as I was looking at the Borla setup, I thought that if only I could find a 58mm or 60mm single butterfly throttle body, I could get larger runners than the Borla runners cast up, bolt on the throttle body, and make my own IR setup. However, it appears that the throttle bodies are really expensive, no matter who is selling them...
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The Jenvey ones are for a pair, DCOE substitutes, 4 needed, if you don't already have a set...
What's galling is Moon sells a 50mm-ready runner base for $900 for a sbf...so close...
http://www.mooneyesusa.com/product-p/mwm4302sd.htm
Cheap FORD 65mm throttle bodies, $65 each, here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-MUSTANG-4-6-SOHC-1996-04-HIGHLY-PORTED-POLISHED-65MM-THROTTLE-BODY-/161528955654?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item259be04306&vxp=mtr
With the runner base, something like this might follow:
http://www.enginelabs.com/news/video-vararam-vr-x-ls3-manifold-on-the-dyno/
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It was not a suggested option but a ram style EFI intake would be nice. Maybe set up for a huge custom Ford style throttle body up to 140mm or so. A true dedicated high flow short runner intake for 600 plus HP would be nice for the big cube engines.
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It was not a suggested option but a ram style EFI intake would be nice. Maybe set up for a huge custom Ford style throttle body up to 140mm or so. A true dedicated high flow short runner intake for 600 plus HP would be nice for the big cube engines.
Wouldn't that be a TB flange welded onto the front plate of a tunnel ram plenum with a flat solid plate replacing the carb(s)-mounting plate on top? Something like what was fabbed up and pictured above?
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More like a 502 Ram Jet intake but like Jay said with properly spaced runners, or a side draft Box R style would work too. I am planning on using the Trick Flow Box R but flow will definetly be limited due to the narrow port spacing and I have to do extensive machine work to make the ports big enough. Really if a proper base plate were available then a lot of messing around could be avoided. The wiggle in the front and rear ports would definetly become a factor with a big port head like a Blue Thunder leaving you to custom build something from scratch to be truely effective.
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If you made a tunnel wedge intake would it have the Dove style top plate format? This plate is apparently an original Ford part, though apparently very rare. Would any of these intakes still fit a Cleveland? There would be a second market for the intakes in the Cleveland world.
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What about 3-D printing? Zytel?
You have CAD files and I assume you have the software to do more CAD files.
With a 3-D printer you can experiment more, with faster turnarounds. Change plenum and runner volumes and angles and taper pretty much at will.
Especially for parts away from direct contact with heat, like center sections of intakes. I'd wonder how hot oil pans get and whether a Dailey-type pan with integrated plumbing could be printed for less than $10K.
The pricing on 3-D printing seems to be falling even as it becomes more capable.
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My vote would be for a tunnel ram style , pro street and old school is coming back ..
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What about 3-D printing?
The pricing on 3-D printing seems to be falling even as it becomes more capable.
Way ahead of you on that one ;)
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If you made a tunnel wedge intake would it have the Dove style top plate format? This plate is apparently an original Ford part, though apparently very rare. Would any of these intakes still fit a Cleveland? There would be a second market for the intakes in the Cleveland world.
I'd be looking at doing a tunnel wedge without the top plate. Are you sure the tunnel wedge with the top plate is original Ford? That's a new one on me; I thought that was a Dove thing.
None of these manifolds would fit a 351C engine, the port spacing would be too wide. My vision for all this stuff is fairly low volume production, targeted at the high performance end of the FE world, so adding additional sales volume for 351C engines isn't all that important to me. I just want to see us FE guys get the same opportunities for performance as everybody else...
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Yes, the top plate design was original to Ford, although I've only put my hands on a Cammer intake with that configuration. It has a factory XE casting number on it, and a large open plenum under the plate. I think there may have been a TP version as well.
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I just want to see us FE guys get the same opportunities for performance as everybody else...
Kudos to you for that line of thinking. The other guys have there stuff, so dedicated FE stuff is the way to go. Obviously you're not going to get rich on this stuff, so sticking to FEs makes the whole thing cooler, not to mention more practical for making power in the FE.
It may also be worth your time to discuss this with Blair, as he may have some really good ideas and comments on design.
Personally, I would rather see a tunnel wedge style made with modern design and concepts. It's a well known look (super cool, which everybody agrees on), makes good power for bigger engines, but really lacks in terms of modern enhancements. Of course it's a 45+ year old design, so that's to be expected. Original ones are REALLY expensive, so chopping one up for EFI and injectors makes a body cringe. Even aftermarket ones are expensive, so they still require some $$$ to purchase, then more $$$ to modify. Kevin had a good point about BBM and their plans to release one....although I'm guessing it's going to be designed more like the originals for appearance sake, so that may not be a hindrance for the performance oriented people.
Realistically, I'd guess the single spider would be more popular for the drag guys (not the kind that gather in bars either ::) ). So from a selling standpoint, I'd guess it might be a toss up.
But I have to say, from a modification for racing standpoint, I really like the idea of the removable top. Seems like it would be easier to cast that way, add very little to machining operations, not to mention being WAY more friendly for porting and modifying the plenum for specific purposes and racing. A top plate would be easy to make without further casting.
Just my .002 cents (adjusted for inflation :) )
edit: The only removable top plate intakes I've seen were the NASCAR designs. Pretty rare and very expensive.