FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: sanddoc on November 29, 2014, 11:22:19 PM
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Hi guys, I'm new to the FE world
but I'm looking at buying a FE block that has no casting number in the passagner
side front of block. And the heads are C8eaj and c6ae
it is drilled for oil galleys. has 66 427 stamped on it along with the 57 352..
price is $125
I turned the engine by hand, easy but then something hit the bottom of the
the oil pan (dry) then the engine would only make a 380 turn..
any info
Best
Dave
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I would say there is no way to tell for sure unless you measure the bore and stroke. You can roughly measure the stroke through a spark plug hole with a piece of stiff wire. Measure how far the wire goes into the hole when piston is at it's highest point and at it's lowest point and take the difference. For bore you're going to have to remove a head.
In the end it's likely a 390 or possibly a 360.
JMO,
paulie
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Look close at those heads, C8AE-J is a very unique head, 68 427 or very early CJ, likely its a C6AE-J, which is just a garden variety head.
If one is really a C8AE-J, I'd grab it, the head alone would be likely worth the price for the -135 guys (first run of CJ Mustangs)
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here is a rear view of the block
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The 66-427 means little to nothing, found on lots of 390s
If it were a 427 block, those two side oiler passages would be drilled and it would have crossbolts Be sure to get the head casting. If that one is an early CJ head there is a market for it.
Matter of fact, all the 66-427 blocks I have had were 390 bore and not able to go to 428
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Well I was out looking for just a 390 FE and this one showed up for
$200. Yesterday when I was there, I turned the engine over by hand and something
fell into the oil pan (BTW the block is dry) then when I tried to rotate the engine
it would not rotate 360 deg, something dropped and is blocking the rotation.
so it could mean that at one time someone did some bottom end work and
never tighten the cap bolts enough could mean spun bearing on one or all
I've read so much on the FE engine now, that who knows what Ford was doing
they had some very strange ways of accounting for their castings.
I did read that some side oiler were cast but then drilled for normal oiling.
I did not even take time to look and see if the block was cross bolt...
now if it turns out to be a (truck) motor is it worth anything. I know you say
that the one head might have value, and I guess I could buy it for just that.
best
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Based on your description its obviously damaged. Could have hurt the block when that happened. Unless you can pull the oil pan to see what the issue is, I'd probably pass on that one; previous comments about the Cobra Jet head excepted, of course...
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well something is wrong, but I don't think there is damage to the casting
no way of dropping the pan as the engine is sitting on a dolly which is
holding it up via the pan and they do not have a hoist
I get more confused every time a read about the FE and some people put
info out like (first FE was 352) in 58... oops..
and marine 427 were cast with side oiler but drilled for top oiler
and that you can't drill out the side oil passage...
What do you think that head would be worth the c8ae-j?
best
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Welcome to Fe's. Yes, it can be very hard to I.D a block. I'll add that not only do you normally need to know the bore and stroke but in some cases a sonic check to know for sure what you are looking at. Many side-oiler 427's and most 428's have a "scratch" mark on the back of the block. It looks like a weld bead and some people mistakenly call it that, but it is actually a scratch that was made in the casting sand of the mold. That is one of the ways Ford used to keep track of what they were making. Look at this picture and you can see a sideways "<" that goes through the 66-427. There are other marks that were used. 428's commonly have a "C" or "A" along with others.
(http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff437/red0wl/SO1.jpg) (http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/red0wl/media/SO1.jpg.html)
In this next picture below the scratch you can see on the back of the block the side-oiler galley and relief passage have been drilled and plugged.
(http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff437/red0wl/SO2.jpg) (http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/red0wl/media/SO2.jpg.html)
In this photo you can see the "hump" in the side of the block for the side-oiler passage an inch or so above the oil pan. There are 3 small threaded plugs there right above the cross bolts.
(http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff437/red0wl/SO3.jpg) (http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/red0wl/media/SO3.jpg.html)
Marine 427's were made all 3 ways, as a center oiler, as a side oiler and as a block with an undrilled side-oiler passage. An undrilled side-oiler block would have to have that "hump" on the drivers side of the block.
I have also seen industrial blocks with very small bores that have the "66-427" on the back so do not go just by that.
Check the casting number on that head carefully. As was stated most likely it is a more common C6AE-J with an unclear 6 and not a C8AE-J, especially since the head on the other side is a C6AE. It only takes a few pieces of sand to fall off the mold to make a 6 look like an 8. Best way to I.D. that is to check the date code cast into the head in the valve spring area under the valve cover. If it starts with a 5 or 6 ( for the year cast ) it won't be a C8AE-J head. If it starts with an 7 or 8 you may be lucky. You may want to post a pictures for us. The value would really depend on condition - Is it cracked, sunken valve seats, etc.
I would also consider, looking at the half moon cut out on the crank flange, that it may be a 352 and the block wouldn't even be a good candidate to make a 390.
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I have a 1966 date code 427 block that is a side oiler casting but drilled as a center oiler. It is a marine block that was intended for left-hand rotation. My block has cross bolted mains and must use solid lifters as it was not drilled for hydraulics.
For more pictures, see my earlier post "a tale of two 427s". For more info on block IDs, see Barry R's book "How to build Max Performance Ford FE Engines". It's available from his website.
Bruce
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thanks Kevin, Bruce good info
did you notice in my pic that there are the two protrutions for the side oiler
that are not drilled. So it could be a 427 marine or industrial engine.
The bottom line is the engine with buying?
IC no marking around the 427 casting
Best
PS: guess I did not get enough info when I was there yesterday
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IMO, check or ask if it has cross-bolts. If so, you may have a winner. If not, you'll need to rely on the possible value of the cylinder head to get your money's worth if the block is junk. Bottom line I would find a way to inspect the block further.
Bruce
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My guess is that its just a 352 or a 360, judging by the half moon cut out in the crank flange. I will bet there is no side oiler passage in the side of the block, just in the bellhousing area. Be nice if it was something special, bit unlikely. :( Rob
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You really need to play detective. As was mentioned, the two undrilled protrusions on the back are meaningless if there is no hump on the side of the block. On a side-oiler there is an hole drilled all the way from the front to the back of the block for the oil passage. At the very least the cast iron needs to be there. Blocks were cast using multiple patterns for the molds, sometimes Ford just used the same rear mold for everything from 352's to 427's. Bottom line on these is you really need to see inside the motor and sometimes the seller won't go for that. If that is the case then the question is do you have a couple hundred dollars to waste if it turns out to be a worn out 352? If it's a 390 block and already 30 over and worn it's also probably not worth anything. Often times these motors had a wrist pin come loose and wear a big gouge in the bore, something you won't know until the heads come off. What do you intend to do with this motor? Stroker kit? Aftermarket heads? Just a cheap rebuilt 390 for a pickup?
What are the date codes on the intake manifold and the block, along with the heads? The block date code on these ( non-early ) blocks are usually under the oil filter adapter. If the dates are all close it can help in determining what you have.
Now at least you have some more info to use.
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here is a rear view of the block
Isn't the half moon in the crank a 360 only item?
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No 352 also had them, and they say early 390, 406, 427 cranks had them till 64 or 65. I have no personel experience with them, so not absolutely sure on those. Rob
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thanks Kevin, Bruce good info
did you notice in my pic that there are the two protrutions for the side oiler
that are not drilled. So it could be a 427 marine or industrial engine.
The bottom line is the engine with buying?
IC no marking around the 427 casting
Best
PS: guess I did not get enough info when I was there yesterday
Sandoc, it is almost certainly nothing special. Nothing so far has made it look like anything other than a block that used the rear bulkhead, a bunch of them out there.
Us old farts have had a ton of them come and go. For 100 bucks, worst case is you have 100 bucks worth of 352 or 390.
I have raced home too many times with treasures, that 66-427 means nothing on a 2 bolt block
427 industrial are rarer than hens teeth and like "may not believe they exist" rare, and 428 industrials would not have those heads and generally didnt have the 66-427 rear pattern. This comes from a guy who would buy trailer loads of propane 428s trying to find 427s. Never did
I thought you said 125 dollars though, that's cheap enough for any gamble, even parting it out might get you back to even if it was a 390
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I am almost at the point to just let it go.
He started at $200, I was getting him down as low as possible.
I've seen just blocks and cranks for $50, and one guy in San Diego has a load
of heads for $15 each. I am sure some of you are in Calif I'm in Los Anegels
area, so I check out CL all the time. Think I'll wait for for a 428 or a real 427
to show up, I am in no big rush for an FE
But I do want to thank everyone who had input into this...
Best
Dave
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There are some parts on that engine you will need.
The front cover and the oil filter housing.
Not to mention the heads and all the bolts.
Those C6 heads are an excellent starting point for an FE build.
Beat him done to scrap price and keep what you need and scarp the rest.
Keep the big picture open. You need all the parts to build an FE.
Not just the block.
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So here I go again.
C6AE or C8AE with (J)
From my reading there are only 2 heads that use the C6AE casting
a (SOHC) or the 66 FE big block but that ends with a R
the C8AE (J) is a 68 cougar or mustang low raiser...
caveat is that I know the exhaust ports are 2 bolts each
So I'm going to drive down and see this engine again, and take a
magnifying glass and also find that block casting...
these numbers came from 2 different sources, but probably from the same
original source.... 1 is MustangTek, the other is Hot Rod reference...
Best
Dave
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Dave,
While you're at it, good to check the block's date code; it can be found underneath, if I remember near the oil filter housing. The code is 3 numbers and a letter, i.e. 8C11 would be March 11, 1968. All letters were used except for the letter "I". The date code can be of help in identifying the block and as Barry R says, sometimes by exclusion.
Bruce
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There are at least 4 normal production FE heads ( not SOHC ) that start with C6AE. There are -J, -L, -R, -U. There are also more FE heads in '66 with other castings - C6OE-AE, C6OE-Y, C6TE-G, C6JE, none of which apply to what you are looking at, but I'll list for info purposes. There were probably more FE head castings in 1966 than any other year. And many of those can be machined multiple ways, 8 bolt exhaust, 14 bolt exhaust, Thermactor ( smog ) bosses or ports. There are at least another 8 more castings I've seen mentioned. One thing you will learn is do not rely on some of the published books. MustangTek is pretty good, but not complete. As I mentioned before, be sure and check date codes, not only can they affect what you might be looking at but also the value. And although the C8AE-J heads were used on Mustangs and Cougars, which would normally be 14 bolt exhaust, some of these were early production cars and some were meant for racing, they can still be 8 bolt exhaust. Don't be afraid to take pictures. And I'll agree with Howie, even if it's not exactly what you are looking for the small parts and accessories are worth it if you can get the engine cheap enough.
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C1AE-A and C4AE-B cranks are 3.78 stroke and have the half moon cut out on the crank
C4AE-B on the left the other 2 cranks are steel 427 cranks
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w51/tnlprt/427cranks_zpsadc9f690.jpg
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So here I go again.
C6AE or C8AE with (J)
From my reading there are only 2 heads that use the C6AE casting
a (SOHC) or the 66 FE big block but that ends with a R
the C8AE (J) is a 68 cougar or mustang low raiser...
caveat is that I know the exhaust ports are 2 bolts each
So I'm going to drive down and see this engine again, and take a
magnifying glass and also find that block casting...
these numbers came from 2 different sources, but probably from the same
original source.... 1 is MustangTek, the other is Hot Rod reference...
Best
Dave
Sanddoc you are killing me LOL
C8AE-J - might be from a Cougar 427, but most value is for the early CJs. Before the C8OE-N, the -135 cars (first REAL CJs) used C8AE-J, a very good head to sell off but super rare.
C6AE-J - nothing special at all
I can't tell you not to research, but the old guys here know more than the crappy books and websites out there.
Just go look at it, if it is really a C8AE-J, buy the pile, if it isn't walk away or buy it, the parts have some value.
There is no mystery here LOL
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Got the same heads on the 410 pickup truck engine out in the barn. Wish they had smaller chambers but they are what they are, basic FE heads.