FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Saltshaker on November 09, 2014, 09:46:21 PM
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When using 2 gaskets on one side does that change the gemonerty of the push rods and the intake?
Does the intake need to be clearenced for the pushrods?
Jon
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I cannot help to ask but why would you use two intake gaskets on one side of your intake? Why not a thicker set of gaskets lf that is the issue?
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When using 2 gaskets on one side does that change the gemonerty of the push rods and the intake?
Does the intake need to be clearenced for the pushrods?
Jon
It does change the location of the pushrod in the intake holes, but usually the pushrods will still clear. Best thing to do is dummy it up and use a penlight to look down the holes, and see if you are close anywhere. If you are, rotate the engine over so you can see if there is any rubbing or interference; in that case you may have to clearance the inside of the pushrod holes a little. No big deal, usually...
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Does anyone make a thicker LR intake gasket? A gasket at .090 would of worked. The reason for 2 gaskets is there is a .012 gap on #8 all other cylinders are good. The gead and intake were checked with a straight edge and were straight. I had thought about just glaring a .30 gasket to the intake gasket for that 1 port.... This seamed easier
Jon
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Sounds like you have problems elsewhere that need to be addressed. Having ONE port that far off is pretty odd, and trying to add just one gasket to that port is a bad band-aid fix. Adding 2 gaskets will just cause problems with the other ports. The intake and head may check ok with a straight edge, but that doesn't mean they were machined parallel.
In my opinion, you need to find out where the machining or fitment issue is and fix it properly. Otherwise you will be chasing other problems down the road in a short time.
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2 gaskets did not work, looks like either a shim or milling the intake to match the heads is the way to fix it!
Jon
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This is all a new one to me??? I know they make offset head dowels but trying to straiten something that is not on the same plane is kinda hard. If you mill the intake you would have to mill it crooked, something a machine shop is not going to be so enthusiastic to do. If you mill a part it is to true it not to make it off center, it will be hard to turn a strait intake flange into a banana it just does not work that way.
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Since the intake and head checked straight with a straight-edge, it sounds to me as if the intake, or head, or both, are already milled crooked or not parallel. Some careful and judicious measuring should be done to find out where the problem lies before it's made worse by just milling one side of the intake to "correct" the problem. If they truly are straight (but not parallel), then the problem is also present in the other ports but maybe just not as noticeable as #8.
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The problem with it not sitting right at #8 didn 't make sense. I found the tab from the head gadket was pushing on the gadket and after straighting it out and playing with a few gaskets I found one that let the intake sit without a clearence issue. I'm using a MR Gasket LR gasket and have glued it to the head with 3m weather aheasive.... Hope this holds it in place. What would you put around the ports,
More 3m, motorcraft 7.3 silcone or permatex permashield which is gas resistant??
If this doesn't work, it's going to the machine shop
Jon
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I don't do this with all, but if I have a problem child....
3M the gasket exactly where you want it, and don't be afraid to do it around each port, put some on the head, some on the gasket, then attach glue to glue after the glue is tacky.
Do whatever you are going to do on the china walls, Right Stuff, Motorcraft, end seals, your choice
Just before you set the intake on, put a swipe of RTV around each port on the now locked solid intake gasket, and bolt the intake on. The wet RTV will initially let the intake move as you tighten and leaves your gasket staying in place (the ends anyway, the middle is held by the head gasket tabs), but I like to think it helps seal things up afterwards on the problem children too.
Remember though, sometimes on odd combinations the intake bolts can hit the intake before the intake settles down completely. So you may want to do one gentle dry fit and look into the intake bolt holes to see how the threads line up.
If the threads are above the centerline of the intake bolt hole, you are in trouble because the bolts will hit the intake as the threads try to pull it downward. At that point you either open up the intake holes or dig deeper to get things fit properly, basically fitting the manifold to whatever someone else did to your block
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To help line this up I put studs in on one side andcan slide the intake on. Tried a dry this way and the bolts went in easy on the other side. Going to get this on later today
Thnx
Jon
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Weatherstrip adhesive is not the best choice. It's not rated for heat or for contact with fuel. Also, using studs and sliding the intake on on one side is not the best choice as it can disrupt the other gaskets. It should be gently sat directly down with minimal movement to align everything. But FIRST it should be dry fitted so you know everything is going to fit properly and end gaps can be checked. You still don't know where the problem lies, so throwing different gaskets on it hasn't fixed the issue.
Fitting FE intakes can be a pain, particularly on 45 year old parts that have been milled over the years, especially by machinists who aren't familiar with the issues. That's why it's important to check the fitment before finally assembly.
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Also don't forget to set the distributor as a guide while all this other wrangling is going on to properly locate the intake in the end. If you get it on a bind you won't be able to adjust timing and may end up with an oil leak problem as well
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Thnx
Dizy is in and turns...studs line the intake up and has always worked for me. The 3m was recomended by a engine builder here in NJ to make sure the gaskets would not move durning installation. The motor will sit for at least 24 hrs and then I want to pressurize the intake with maybe 10 or 15 lb of air to make sure it is not leaking...
Let you know how it goes tomorrow
Jon
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Weatherstrip adhesive is not the best choice. It's not rated for heat or for contact with fuel. Also, using studs and sliding the intake on on one side is not the best choice as it can disrupt the other gaskets. It should be gently sat directly down with minimal movement to align everything. But FIRST it should be dry fitted so you know everything is going to fit properly and end gaps can be checked. You still don't know where the problem lies, so throwing different gaskets on it hasn't fixed the issue.
Fitting FE intakes can be a pain, particularly on 45 year old parts that have been milled over the years, especially by machinists who aren't familiar with the issues. That's why it's important to check the fitment before finally assembly.
I am not sure what it's rated for, but many many garages and racers have been using it forever as contact cement for gaskets of all kinds. My own experience has been since the early to mid 80's on every intake install and never had a comeback to the shop. I'd actually say the opposite, it is so efficient at locking gaskets in place that undoubtedly it has made for some better installs and prevented pushing gaskets out in some odd designs like oil pans, end seals, and valve covers.
Additionally, every motor I built for my own use has 3M yellow death somewhere in it without a single failure of any kind. It's not really a sealant, its a contact cement. So I can't disagree that it doesn't say "FE intake manifolds" on the box, but my professional use alone probably has a sample size enough to say it works great and if you multiply it by the hundreds, if not thousands of mechanics and builders that use it, I think it's a proven product.
I will also add, that especially for the people who won't run end seals, note that on some gasket designs (non-metal core) you really have no way to know if the ends dropped a bit, by gluing them down you know they stay in place without the end seals holding them up
I do agree with everything else, but it would be a shame for him to avoid 3M with its long history. One word to the wise though, use the yellow 3M, there is some black and non-hardening black that is not the same
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Interesting, Ross. Without a doubt, 3M makes some of the best products. Whether it's sealers, sandpaper or a million other products, they're first rate. I've just always used actual gasket adhesives on engines. The weatherstrip adhesive works great on lots of things, just never tried it on gaskets.
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Check this out, this is new BTW but will make us feel better. It's been renamed LOL Additional link says good for oil and water too .
(http://3mauto.com/media/catalog/product/cache/24/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/0/8/08002-3M-Super-Weatherstrip-and-Gasket-Adhesive.jpg)
http://3mauto.com/3m-super-weatherstrip-and-gasket-adhesive-08002-yellow.html
Tastes great AND less filling! Would love to say that I knew it was renamed, but I didn't...I called the 3M tech line and they said same formula as the 8001 but different package size and cap design for this use
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It's all good, gotta chime in with Permatex (interestingly enough, yellow too 8)) part #80060, commonly known as "97B". Stuff works awesome. When I need to know the gasket is still where I placed it after I'm past the visual this stuff has never let me down. Funny how you find something that really works and it becomes the mainstay when you need "something extra".
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The FE really doesn't have quite the issues that the small blocks have. With a SBF, the bolts are vertically oriented, so they try to wedge the intake downward, which makes the gaskets want to shift around. In an FE with the bolts normal to the intake flange, it helps in keeping gaskets in the spots they need to be in.
With all of that being said, I still glue each and every intake gasket down, not only to keep them from squirming, but as a sealant between the gasket and the head and the gasket and the intake. FE intake gaskets are always "flooded", so anything extra is a plus, IMO. I have used the red tacky gasket sealant from Permatex....it's like a contact cement, and I've used Right Stuff and just sat the intake down on the gaskets and left it over night.
It seems like we all do the same thing, we just have different products that we use.
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Ok, it did not work! Yes, the 3m did but there is a issue either with the intake the head or as suggested the dowel pins....it leaked in the same place on #8.
Jon
Ps; 3m STICKS....40 min with a razor blade to remove it!
Jon
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Hmm, seems it may also have been mentioned that it sounds like an issue with the intake or head, or both. Even the block could be adding to the problem. Measurements are your friend.
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I have been using 3M weather strip adhesive for oil gaskets since I worked at the machine shop in the eighties, never found anything better yet. Everyone I have talked to swears by it for oil gaskets, then silicone for water and at junctions like the corners of intake ends where the cork or rubber meets the head.
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Took the intake off , 7 of the ports the gasket had been sealed to the intske and again #8 was clean and that is where it was leaking. I have another intake from a friend and he never had a problem with it, thinking of bolting it to one side with a gasket to see if I have the same problem...
Jon
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After reading everyone's ideas, there is one fact that we sometimes overlook about sealers. Ross mentioned contact cement, and that is exactly what it needs to be to hold the gasket in place. The gasket is supposed to do the sealing, not the cement/glue. The material used in the gasket should be the medium that prevents leaks, not a sealant that is added, even though they do prevent leaks when used properly. I have done head and intake changes on dyno tests where we used the same gaskets multiple times without re-glueing, or adding rtv. The gasket material was the sealant. If the gasket doesn't break down, and is flat, it will seal. We actually glued the gasket to the heads, and then using white grease on the gasket, installed and removed several intake manifolds without a leak, either of water or vacuum. Holding the gasket in place is important if it is to last long term, and contact cement is actually better than rtv for that purpose. I have had one CJ with a Print-O-Seal gasket hold for 20+ years, but that is the exception. It is all in preparation, and chemicals used to seal it up. Joe-JDC
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Hopefully this is now fixed, the head had a .018 taper on the intake side...new valve stem seals and the RPM intake had to get milled to be sq and straight. Will be putting it back together this wknd and hopefully the end of oil consumption.
Jon
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Glad it worked out for you Jon, at least to know you have everything strait and all squared up. It is always also good to know what you have and not have to scrounge for replacement parts that you are not sure are good to begin with.
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Hopefully this is now fixed, the head had a .018 taper on the intake side...new valve stem seals and the RPM intake had to get milled to be sq and straight. Will be putting it back together this wknd and hopefully the end of oil consumption.
Jon
With all of the milling that's been done now the intake will want to sit down a bit lower. Make sure your head gasket tabs aren't holding the intake up in a false location. You might have to drill the manifold bolt holes +1/32 too.
Edit: And for sealing nirvana try some Caterpillar cement 5H2471 if you can find it. My local Cat dealer says it crosses to Loctite 30540. And be careful with the fumes, You'll be duck hunting with a rake!
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And be careful with the fumes, You'll be duck hunting with a rake!
Lmao!! ;D