FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Dan859 on October 17, 2014, 01:30:09 PM
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Hi everyone,
I have a 64 Comet Caliente set up as something like an A/FX. It has a Mustang II front end, a 457 CID engine (Genesis 427 with 428 crank), TKO transmission, and a MW rear end with 3.91 gears. The engine specs are:
427 Genesis block
428 crank, offset ground to 4.00 stroke, with 400 Cleveland rods
Venolia forged 10.5 C.R. pistons
Bullet hyd. roller cam and lifters, adv 305/310 duration, 243/254 @ .050, .585 lift
Dove HR heads
Dove HR tunnel wedge intake
Dove HD roller rocker assembly
Holley twin 80457 carbs, 600 cfm each
MSD ignition, 36 total advance, in by 3000 RPM
I had the engine dynoed, it showed 532 HP @ 6000 RPM, and 506 lb ft @ 4500 RPM, with a redline of 6000 RPM. Since I had the engine built, I've since read that the 400 Cleveland rods aren't really a good idea, so that concerns me. I also had hoped for 600 HP out of the engine, which I didn't get. Another issue is that the engine isn't real street friendly at low RPMs. It runs rough and there's a lot of reversion back into the carbs.
I should add that this is my first foray into an engine like this. I've had a 68 Fairlane 390 and a couple 70 429CJ Torinos, but nothing like this. My goals are to have a street friendly car that develops 600 HP with a 6000-6500 RPM redline. I want to stick with a hydraulic roller cam because I have to remove the brake master cylinder and vacuum booster in order to remove the valve cover to adjust the valves.
My thought at this point is that I should just bite the bullet and rebuild the engine as follows:
Scat 4.25 stroker kit, which will give me 482 CID, keeping about 10.5 CR.
Survival or BBM heads, just a basic cleanup and port matching, with an aftermarket roller valve train.
Dual quad intake, either a BT med riser dual plane, or a Dove MR tunnel wedge, with dual Holley carbs.
Hyd roller cam, with less duration and higher lift than the current cam.
Any thoughts, comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I'm especially interested in camshaft profile and intake/carb recommendations.
Thanks,
Dan
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The experts here will have better specifics, but I think if you are going with a stroker kit and a cam change then the top end should be fine, with the exception of maybe better carbs.
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I would get the stroker kit for sure, 400 rods are junk. I would think that your dove high risers and tunnel wedge are more than adequate for 600 HP. Its hard to say for sure without flow numbers, but I think your leaving a lot on the table with that cam. I'd guess around .700 lift would add a lot. Also check the header alignment on the head, my dove medium risers have a raised exhaust roof. There's a lot of smart fellers over here, especially for picking a cam.
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I agree, the heads and intake will support 600 hp, they flow about 350-ish with a good valve job, but they will want more lift to do so. I sure wouldnt go down in duration, just get a better grind that has more .050
Keep the top end but freshen it up with a set of beehive or conical springs for a little better valve control, put a 4.25 stroke crank in there and add more cam
I am sure some our builders here can help you with a good grind, but as a WAG I'd be running a bit more .050 duration, probably close to the low 250s, with the added cubes
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I'd agree on the additional cubes, but I'd also recommend changing the heads and intake. I have a set of those Dove high riser heads, and the ports are huge for the amount of flow you get; not a lot of flow velocity in those heads, and the intake is the same way. If you decide to shoot higher, maybe 700 HP, those heads and intake would be fine, but I think going with a set of ported Survival heads and BT 2X4 intake as you outlined would easily get you 600 HP and make the engine a lot more responsive at lower engine speeds, and a lot more street friendly. Probably the huge ports and intake runners in the Dove parts contributed to the existing engine's substandard performance.
On the cam, I think you are close but I'd be going up to maybe something around .640 lift and 250-254 @ .050" on the intake lobe. Good luck on the project, and welcome to the forum - Jay
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You are suffering from "COMBO". COMBO is not terminal..........so far we have a 100% recovery rate for Combo. Jay is right about the volume issue. The Dove HR intake and heads need about two quarts of Z-spar spread around in various places to get them to come around for what you describe. There are options. The better suited the head, the less cam is required. If you use the right head, and the rest of the engine is good quality, it should make your 600 hp no problem. My first thought is a BP Pro-Port..........I know the guy that does those, LOL. The BBM or the Survival would probably get you there without a full-on port job...........but the prep would have to be right for the task. There is alot of good info on this site from alot of good and knowledgeable folks. As Jay said, welcome to our small piece of the web here!
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Concur with the consensus (might be too many fancy words there...)
But the combination could use some help. The 400 rods & such are pretty old school but not in a good way, and date back to when we could not get good parts and guys used anything they could find to build a stroker on a budget. The newer stroker combinations are just way better for less cost - no comparison - do it.
The heads are a maybe type of item. The cool factor of running a high riser cannot be denied. Depending on the iteration of the castings they may be anywhere from pretty decent to just usable. The OEM type port is really tall and narrow - and like Blair said - it cries out for about an inch of filler. My local guy squeezes his head filler out of an electrical tube that runs on 220. On the other hand its possible that your heads could have the PIE port - named for Mr. Paquet of Super Stock fame. That port is radically better, with the fill already applied and more width.
No matter which intake you have, the fill it up comment is good, but I don't know if two quarts will be enough. But if you just want to drive it, a huge intake can be made to work OK with effort. It'll never accelerate the car down track like it should, but it will cruise around pretty well and make power. I would probably have a pair of 750s on there.
A basic 482 with Survival heads and a normal tunnel wedge or good single four is a +/-600 HP capable piece - we've done several of them at this point. I just kinda hate tossing so many usable parts out of the mix if we don't need to.
My personal guess might be to first rework the existing package & see what happens. Stroker kit, shorter duration cam to hang on to some cylinder pressure, and revisit the carbs and heads to see whats going on there. I'd be willing to bet that you'll find the same or more power and a much friendlier package.
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I'm no expert or FE god but, I do agree with Jay, Blair and Barry. Heads are probably alittle too big for given application , as well as the intake. Since you want to go stroker. Why not go for the 4.375 crank and see if the size of the engine can catch up to the heads and intake combo you already have? Wouldn't that fix some of the lack of bottom end response that is being experienced? I would go alittle bigger on the cam mid 250's intake for .050 and depending on the exhaust around low 260's at .050 with approximately .650" to .675" lift. JMO on the cam though. Again I'm no expert or FE god. But, I bet you could fix alot of what is being experienced here with alot more stroke and not get rid of some pretty good parts. Oh, there would be alot of torque also and the 600 hp thingy would be achieved too.
Bruce Faulkner
SSG U.S. ARMY (RET)
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Ah heck, I guess I'll put my 2 cents in. For sure the engine builder guys know way more than I do, but I just can't keep my mouth shut. ::)
I would leave the short block alone. Is it as good and strong as a new 4.25" stroker assembly? Definitely not. BUT, the short block is not why you haven't met your power goals. In my opinion it is the heads, intake, cam, and carbs. I would replace that stuff and keep your shortblock. I will admit that I am partial to unusual combinations like you have in your short block, so I am bit biased. Plus it's all American made which is also cool.
So get better heads and intake. Well done Proports may be the best choice. Survival heads would be awesome as well (Okay, BBM, too :P) . Or even expertly ported plain ole' Edelbrocks would get you there.
The intake is a little harder choice at the 600 hp level in my opinion. Lots of ways to get there. Considering the gearing and vehicle weight a ported Victor would work. But at 600 hp there are "lesser" intakes that can get you there, too. Even an Edelbrock RPM could do it, though you'd likely lose some top end power. I think the Blue Thunder 2x4 intake would be fantastic. And since you could use new carbs, you could move to some nice Holley 750's.
I'd put about 6-8 degrees more cam duration and a little more lift, maybe 0.600-0.625". The hydraulic cam is a real bottle neck in my opinion. You want more duration to make more power, but then you'll need to run more rpm, and that gets harder and harder with a hydraulic roller. You can science-out your valve train with light weight retainers and valves and such and probably get to 6500 rpm or slightly more. That would probably be enough. Plus I'm not sure if you have a pump or accumulator for your power brakes?
I feel like the hydraulic roller is really the focal point of all this. I realize this contradicts almost everything I've said up to this point, but max cubes from a stroker kit is really your friend if you want to stay with a hydraulic roller cam. The more cubes you have the lower your rpm will be for a certain power level and the easier it'll be on your valvetrain. Having a hydraulic roller cam really accentuates this characteristic.
Ah hell, let me put it this way.
Option 1) If I owned this motor I would get some good Proport or Survival heads, a BT 2x4 intake, and two Holley 750 carbs. Then I would ditch the power brakes and put in a solid roller with about 252 to 258 degrees duration. I'd spin it in the 6500-6800 rpm range and hope the rods didn't let go.
Option 2) For someone who wants to keep the power brakes AND the hydraulic roller, a big motor just makes sense. So you might as well get a stroker kit. 4.25" or even 4.375". Then put a slightly bigger hydraulic roller cam in and some Holley 750's. Then I'd see how that does with your current heads and intake and go from there. Things is, if you end up replacing the heads and intake, well now you have almost a whole new motor. Only the block is remaining.
Option 3) Keep the shortblock, get the good heads and intake, and get a better hydraulic roller cam, but not one with a lot (or any) more duration. Maybe one specifically picked by one of the engine builder guys. It might have more lift and just the right duration and other spec's to get you some more power without raising your rpm much. With good valvetrain parts you might take it to 6500 rpm or less and still make over 600 hp.
semi-coherent ramble officially over!
JMO,
paulie
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I would do either one of two things....
1. Add displacement to help with the current cylinder head port volume. A big inch motor will suck harder on a fat cylinder head.
2. Stick with the current displacement and snag another set of heads. My 482-490 inch motors with Pond heads or worked Edelbrocks are 575-600 hp engines with small-ish hydraulic roller cams.
For what you're wanting to do, keeping the rpms down, needing vacuum, etc, etc., either one of those would help, and either is a viable option.
Once you decide on which way you want to go, that will dictate which camshaft to use.
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My 2 cents! Think the most economical and easiest way to 'fix' it is to get new heads as noted above and either save the Dove Hi-Risers for a true full bore race engine or sell them. JMO!
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Capt Cobra Jet: Blair I'm stumped if you were serious or simply making a joke on the name of the "extreme" volume of "filler" required to reduce the volume of the Dove HR intake and heads.
Z-Spar from what I see is a marine varnish hardly what I'd think is compatible with fuel:air, pulsing and engine heat. But maybe the Z-Spar works well"
Re: "need about two quarts of Z-spar spread around in various places to get them to come around'
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Z-spar "splash zone repair" BB. A-788..........check it out. Alot of the "head gurus" repackage the stuff and charge 3X the price, but I get it from Go2marine.com. It is the best filler for the induction side, by far.
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On my tugboat, we keep 5-6 gallons of the stuff around.
We've actually poked a hole in the boat, had a diver stuff some SplashZone over the hole from the outside and went back to work for another 2 years.
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This is encouraging , I won't need to wait for the rain to stop to do the filling in my iron HR heads. ;D
The intake might be more the issue than the heads if it's the one i'm thinking of with a gigantic plenum volume and huge runners.
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The intake might be more the issue than the heads if it's the one i'm thinking of with a gigantic plenum volume and huge runners.
That's a good point, Tom. What about that? That is, replacing the High Riser Tunnel Wedge with a factory Hi Riser dual plane intake? Maybe add filler to the heads and intake, too?
paulie
edit: Here's a side by side pic of the "normal" medium riser Tunnel Wedge and the hi riser version from Dove:
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee289/plovett/TunnelWedgeComparo_zps7997792f.jpg) (http://s231.photobucket.com/user/plovett/media/TunnelWedgeComparo_zps7997792f.jpg.html)
edit: Just for comparison, factory Ford 2x4 and 1x4 high riser intake manifolds. I believe there are two versions of the factory 2x4 intake, differing in the "connecting port" and maybe other ways?
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee289/plovett/427highriser2x4_zps8c864ff3.jpg) (http://s231.photobucket.com/user/plovett/media/427highriser2x4_zps8c864ff3.jpg.html)
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee289/plovett/Fordhighriser1x4_zpscc17a915.jpg) (http://s231.photobucket.com/user/plovett/media/Fordhighriser1x4_zpscc17a915.jpg.html)
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Wow! Had never seen a Dove Hi-Riser intake in person but your pics really point out just how huge those passages and plenum are. Now I wonder did anyone successfully run this intake years ago since at 427 CID it seems to be way too big? For drag racing one would need I guess to have a light weight stick car leaving at redline while for a track car it would need to be a big track with WOT all the way around. Has anyone here run it?
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I've got one, but I'm skeered to run it ;D
Actually, I built a sheet metal intake to run on my high riser instead. I just didn't like the looks of the Dove intake...
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Looking at the pictures I'd definitely run the Dove :)
Instead of filling the heads, fill the intake plenum and ports and make a straight shot at the top half of the high riser head port. Easy to port, and I bet you could just put a clean valve job on the big heads and do just fine
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Just throwing this out there as a pie in the sky thought. What about running a medium riser Tunnel Wedge on Hi Riser heads?
Intake manifolds with big mismatches (to the heads) have run well before, both with the intake bigger, and with intake smaller.
again, just a thought to be thrown into the crucible.
paulie
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Depends where the mismatch is....
If the intake port is much smaller and well "contained" inside the cylinder head port opening, then I wouldn't bat an eye at it for something that needs velocity. You'd be surprised on how well some intakes work out of the box without any port matching or porting.
If the intake port roof is higher than the roof of the head port opening, then you have a problem....
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Depends where the mismatch is....
If the intake port is much smaller and well "contained" inside the cylinder head port opening, then I wouldn't bat an eye at it for something that needs velocity. You'd be surprised on how well some intakes work out of the box without any port matching or porting.
If the intake port roof is higher than the roof of the head port opening, then you have a problem....
That makes sense, BUT I have read that 385 series Fords have run well with CJ intakes on D0VE heads and Big Block Chevy's have run well with rectangle port intakes on oval port heads. I don't know for certain if the intake port roof is higher than the cylinder head port in those examples. I would suspect so, though. It seems like a horrible mismatch, but apparently it works in some situations.
In this case, that is a MR Tunnel Wedge intake on a HR head, I assume the intake manifold roof is lower. I'm not saying it's necessarily a good idea. Just throwing it out there.
paulie
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Could very well work....
I've seen two separate cases where the intake port roof was higher than the roof of the head port opening. One was a 427 inch SBF, and the other was a 427 inch FE. Both had reversion issues, with otherwise mild-ish combinations of parts. In both cases, you could look down the plenum (one was a single plane, the other was a dual) with a light or a borescope and see probably 1/4" of head. IMO, the roof is more important than the floor, and when you have an intake charge moving down the intake runner, hitting the head like that is like hitting a wall and the charge can't do much except back up or stall.
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Looking at the pictures I'd definitely run the Dove :)
Ross, I have a Dove MR Tunnel Wedge. It is ported by Joe Craine (Thanks Joe!). It flows 470+ cfm per port. I would say that's a lot. What I'm getting at is what type of engine can effectively use the Dove HR Tunnel Wedge? If a ported MR Tunnel Wedge flows 470 cfm, what the heck is a HR Tunnel Wedge going to be "right" for? It's going to have to be serious motor. What do you think?
paulie
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It would take some creative milling of the valve cover rail on the heads to do it. It can be done. I have moved the valve covers around on various combos for years. The angle change would work in your favor going to a MR Tunnel Wedge, but you would have to weld the tops of the runners in order to seal the gasket at the top of the HR head port.
I did a 520 inch 11:1 street engine that made 800 hp on pump gas with the Dove HR, but it had a really good head on it, and I filled the Dove intake extensively. I would not want to do it again.......... it would be cheaper to build a tunnel ram.
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I've put medium riser intakes on high riser heads on my EMC stuff a couple times. Not for the timid - but do-able. We moved the heads inboard and angle milled them, which pinched the angle up in the middle and helped. Then I ran 1/4 inch thick gaskets/spacers and valve cover spacers, and china wall spacers, and a distributor sleeve and - - you get the picture?
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Looking at the pictures I'd definitely run the Dove :)
Ross, I have a Dove MR Tunnel Wedge. It is ported by Joe Craine (Thanks Joe!). It flows 470+ cfm per port. I would say that's a lot. What I'm getting at is what type of engine can effectively use the Dove HR Tunnel Wedge? If a ported MR Tunnel Wedge flows 470 cfm, what the heck is a HR Tunnel Wedge going to be "right" for? It's going to have to be serious motor. What do you think?
paulie
Oh I agree that siting on the table it's too big, but look at the entire comment.
Fill that plenum and port floor and make it like a Chi-type intake using the top half of the intake manifold. The head port volume is tiny compared to the intake, if you had that intake bondo'd up making a fast port right at the top of the head, it'd roll right around the short side radius without looking back :)
Hell fill the whole intake and bore a 2 1/4 inch hole in each port right up to the plenum and then mill out whatever plenum size you need :) only partially kidding too
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Lot of good stuff here to ponder but what Dan needs is a plan.
First he needs a really good builder. If he doesn't have one there are plenty here whom have already posted to pick from.
I'm with Ross for keeping the HR stuff especially with the car he has. It's screaming for a high riser.
Nothing cooler than old school type stuff when you can make it work for want you to accomplish.
I agree there is probably an easier way to get there but High Risers, Tunnel Ports and Cammers are just cool.
Might take some work but in the end you will have something not many others have and to me that is worth a bunch.
Send your heads and intake to someone who knows what they are doing, have them CC'd, flowed and have good valve job done.
Let them fill the intake and port it to get the velocity where it needs to be then they can recommend a cam.
Get a stroker kit.
Couple of custom quick fuel carbs and hang on.
you will be north of 600HP easy and have a really cool high riser under the hood.
My 2 cents
garyv
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Oh I agree that siting on the table it's too big, but look at the entire comment.
Fill that plenum and port floor and make it like a Chi-type intake using the top half of the intake manifold. The head port volume is tiny compared to the intake, if you had that intake bondo'd up making a fast port right at the top of the head, it'd roll right around the short side radius without looking back :)
Fair enough. It'd take an experienced porter/builder to make that work well, in my opinion. It could be a good option though. All this stuff is different (read "cool"). I like it.
JMO,
paulie
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Lots of crazy ideas here, but if you keep the highriser stuff you're still fighting yourself. As stated by Blair, choose a workable combo and you'll get the 600 on a very streeable engine. Since you're willing to "bite the bullet", might as well do it right instead of using parts that will require major reworking just to be less than ideal.
Choose a decent modern head (several to choose from), stuff that big crank in there with nothing bigger than a MR style intake port and you'll be knocking on that 600 easily with an engine that will be much more street friendly. The HR stuff can easily be sold to recover a big chunk of cost.
And ditch the 400 rods. They were weak back in the day and even weaker now after 40+ years. Don't chance it. They were only a choice back when there were no choices.
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The intake might be more the issue than the heads if it's the one i'm thinking of with a gigantic plenum volume and huge runners.
That's a good point, Tom. What about that? That is, replacing the High Riser Tunnel Wedge with a factory Hi Riser dual plane intake? Maybe add filler to the heads and intake, too?
paulie
edit: Here's a side by side pic of the "normal" medium riser Tunnel Wedge and the hi riser version from Dove:
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee289/plovett/TunnelWedgeComparo_zps7997792f.jpg) (http://s231.photobucket.com/user/plovett/media/TunnelWedgeComparo_zps7997792f.jpg.html)
edit: Just for comparison, factory Ford 2x4 and 1x4 high riser intake manifolds. I believe there are two versions of the factory 2x4 intake, differing in the "connecting port" and maybe other ways?
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee289/plovett/427highriser2x4_zps8c864ff3.jpg) (http://s231.photobucket.com/user/plovett/media/427highriser2x4_zps8c864ff3.jpg.html)
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee289/plovett/Fordhighriser1x4_zpscc17a915.jpg) (http://s231.photobucket.com/user/plovett/media/Fordhighriser1x4_zpscc17a915.jpg.html)
Dove also made a normal version of the HR Tunnel Wedge that looks just like the MR version.
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Actually DOVE makes 3 high riser tunnel wedge versions. The "big one" like shown (I believe this is the PIE version), a "standard plenum" which looks very close to the normal Medium riser version (longer, smaller runners and smaller plenum with the offset balance "tube" between carb pads. etc.), they also make a "low rise" version that has the carb pads/runners lowered, to fit in a Cobra (I think that was the reason... or just hood clearance period).
I have a "standard plenum" HR, DOVE tunnel wedge in hand right now, first impressions are good. Best casting I have seen from DOVE, I like it much better (runner size and plenum, etc.) than the "huge" PIE manifold, I have put some splash zone in one of those, (probably not enough...).
I wish I had the two side by side for pictures, but the PIE is gone. I know a guy who has two of these on two HR engines, one runs pretty good at over 900HP, the other was a bit of a dog at 650 HP, that engine is too mild for that intake, but it should have made more HP. The dyno guy only did 3 pulls on that one, no tuning, and stopped the pull at 6500, it was still climbing... so no idea what they were doing other than no time, (spent too much time on the 900+ version) and they wanted to go home.
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Actually DOVE makes 3 high riser tunnel wedge versions. The "big one" like shown (I believe this is the PIE version), a "standard plenum" which looks very close to the normal Medium riser version (longer, smaller runners and smaller plenum with the offset balance "tube" between carb pads. etc.), they also make a "low rise" version that has the carb pads/runners lowered, to fit in a Cobra (I think that was the reason... or just hood clearance period).
I didn't know that. I thought the only Dove High Riser Tunnel Wedge was the "humongoloid" version. Thanks for the info.
paulie