FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: SE2839 on August 24, 2014, 10:41:47 PM
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All of the parts are here and so the engine will come out next weekend for the upgrade. As a precursor to doing my BBM head swap I took my Comet up to Anderson Ford Powersports in Clinton Il. to establish a horsepower baseline on their chassis dyno. With the C6AE-R iron heads still on the car it put down 309hp at the rear tire. I did not tune it prior to putting it on and did one hit as driven. A follow up dyno run & tune will be done to determine the gain once the new heads are installed and then tuned for max performance by Ron Anderson.
Werby has run a Gonkulator on the expected gain with the BBM heads and estimates 539hp/530t at the crank and 365hp/388t at the tire. In a couple of weeks we'll see if the actual data backs that up! In the mean time pics will be posted as progress is made.
Edited to add videos, embedded did not seem to work here so posted URL. Let me know if there is a better way to share.
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1033626/fullsize/afp-baseline-309hp.mp4 Short Clip
Better 2 Minute Video
<embed src="http://www.supermotors.net/includes/video/player.swf" width="480" height="326" bgcolor="#ffffff" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" flashvars="file=http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1033832/flv/103/1033832.flv&image=http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1033832/fst/1033832f.jpg&aboutlink=http://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/1033832&abouttext=See this video at SuperMotors.net" />
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Looking forward to the feedback Ed , keep us in the loop .. Bud
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Day one of the swap and it was just short of a disaster. Got a late start and I was a bit apprehensive but slowly and methodically removed and disconnected everything that needed to be. First snafu, I used a different lifting device which I would not use again but with persistence and perseverance and just a little damage to the core support that will be easily straightened but will require repainting I was finally able to get the engine out. The tear down went smoothly with no surprises nor issues other than the mess which was expected and once that was dealt with prepping for the new heads was begun. Second snafu, I compared the header to the gasket for the new heads and discovered that this header absolutely will not work. Several people have made statements that the two would interchange but that a bolt hole or two `would require being elongated and others have suggested that this was not the case. Those in the latter group are correct.
A) the difference in the floor and ceilings are close to a quarter inch off from one another.
B) the FPA's headers flange is already slotted and ends below the ceiling of the CJ port and so would require being plug welded so as not to have a huge leak.
Given the mismatch and how that would kill the flow I will be ordering new headers next Tuesday. In the mean time engine reassembly and installation will continue and some of those things which were waiting for winter may be completed dependent upon how long it will take for the new headers to arrive.
Anyone looking for a set of headers to fit GT heads?
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Which header will you use?
I know the Hookers will fit the BBM port, but have the slight hang down issue
and the big Hookers have even more of a slight hang down issue.
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and the big Hookers have even more of a slight hang down issue.
We ran into that problem in Panama.... but ya know, sometimes ya just gotta make do with the situation.
Seriously tho, SE2839, thanks for posting all this, keep us updated, I'm curious to see what kinda effect these heads have over the ole trusty iron.
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Well, hate to see you have to spend more money, but some good things to know
1 - The FPA headers for a CJ head should be the same header with a different flange, so it should bolt right up
2 - The higher exhaust port should be more efficient, so think of it as more power on the table.
I think you are in for a check of difference, looking forward to the results
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I had a good friend offer up his set of Hooker Comps, he built a 427 based stroker and upgraded to the Doug's with crossover tubes. he is shipping them via Greyhound so progress will be back on track with just a slight delay and another slight deviation to the comparative data. New dyno numbers will include head swap, roller rockers and now headers.
C6AE-R heads to BBM
OE adjustable rockers to Harland Sharp
FPA headers to Hooker Comps
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Just as a FYI, the Hooker Fairlane/Cyclone headers are not approximately symmetrical right to left: the right side exits quite a bit farther back than the left side, and the tubes for 5/6 go underneath the lower control arm, so are vulnerable to speed bumps. So you'll be doing a bit more exhaust system work to connect the Hookers. You'll also notice a decrease in weld and fabrication quality between the FPAs and the Hookers, at least that's been my experience. If the Hookers don't work out for you, drop me a note....I have a good set of used FPAs for CJ/aftermarket heads that I have stored waiting to go on my convertible, but that's a long ways away.
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Thanks to the kindness and generosity of good friends and fellow FE enthusiasts I now have two sets of headers for the CJ pattern. Thank you to Bill n Diane (other forum) and David Jameson without your help this project would have had a very long delay.
Today saw the valve clearance checked and the heads installed, I did find a clearance issue with the Harland Sharp end stand hitting the ARP head bolt but a quick pass on the bench grinder and cleanup with a file was all that was needed. I have decided that while the engine is out I will do the front end upgrades, I've had the parts but had been waiting for winter but with the engine out it will make doing the Shelby drop much easier not to mention how much easier the engine will be to drop in without the steering in the way.
GT vs CJ ports-
(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1034780/fullsize/gt-vs-cj-port-mismatch.jpg)
Engine pulled for swap-
(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1034768/fullsize/pulled-for-headswap.jpg)
Head on-
(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1034769/fullsize/bbm-heads-installed.jpg)
End stand clearanced for ARP stud-
(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1034770/fullsize/arp-n-hs-end-stand-clearance.jpg)
Intake sits roughly .030 above head at valve cover-
(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1034787/fullsize/intake-align.jpg)
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You may want to take the intake and have the valve cover flanges milled down. A .030" step is more than what I'm comfortable with.
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How much difference is there when you torque the intake down? I would torque it in place and measure the difference before cutting anything. The torquing of the intake will leave an imprint on the gasket which will tell you how the intake if fitting around the intake port. If there is a mismatch upper and lower, then you will need to cut a small amount off both sides of the intake manifold to get a better fit/match. Joe-JDC
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Yes, and also check port alignment.
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I've been working a lot of overtime the past couple weeks so not much time on the Comet this past weekend, I did manage to mount the intake and probably used too much RTV in the process. I ended with a difference of between .021 and .033 between intake and head at the valve cover surface. Port alignment looks good, bolts were not aligned well at first but my weight applied to the intake displaced the sealant enough that they lined back up. Engine is just about ready to go back in but first a little front end work. Hope that I never need to take it off again.
I took a little time out and worked on starting the '63 Fairlane that will be the next project. Planning to build it into a gasser using the 390 that was once in the Comet. It has been sitting for more than 25 years. pulled the plugs and fogged cylinders with WD-40 allowed it to sit over night then spun the engine with plugs out. reinstalled the plugs bypassed the tank, poured a bit of gas down the carb, cranked it and its little 260 came to life.
(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1035287/fullsize/almost-ready.jpg)
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Wow SE, I wish I had a garage that big!
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Crikey...nice set-up!! But a French tire sign? ???
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Michelin has a factory in Greenville SC. Joe-JDC
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Thank you guys for the compliments, I'd waited a long time to have it. It's a 48 x 64 x 16 with a second floor along the back with a game room and home gym/storage with 4 bays beneath and the 4 post lift also serves as an elevator hence the second floor garage door.
Don't judge me too harshly for the sign, lol, I had a chance to buy an 8' lighted Citco sign very cheaply but passed. In my view it's an automotive sign that all are familiar with, it's vintage, it and the wall are both large and the price was right. Besides Michelin is the largest tire maker in the world and the makers of American brands BF Goodrich and Uniroyal. Besides you'll note its at the bottom of the wall waiting for a Shell sign to be hung above it.
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Pulled the front springs and steering yesterday in prep for the new parts to go on and drilling for the Shelby drop. I used a KD tool internal four finger spring compressor to pull the springs being very careful as I removed it from the shock tower having heard horror stories. As I went to set it onto the floor with my fingers clear it unloaded, WOW, I nearly pissed myself as I pulled back and I still had one more to go. I still have all my fingers and I will be using a different method to reinstall. Progress continues.
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I had a similar experience with a spring compressor years ago. It went wizzing by my head about an inch from it. So when I did my mustang with the drop and new components, I used one I got off ebay that was similar to this one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/64-73-Mustang-Shelby-Falcon-Fairlane-AMC-Nova-Chevy-II-2-Coil-Spring-Compressor-/150848940559?hash=item231f4c2a0f&item=150848940559&pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&vxp=mtr
The difference being the one I got had a piece of 1/4 inch on top that replaced the shock holder. It worked well . Just FYI
GT
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After considerable delay I am back on track. I had all of the parts for the suspension upgrade except for the lower control arms, Moog had discontinued the K8121 replacing it with an RK8121 which I ordered from Summit only to learn that they had the wrong bushing size for the roller bearing kit. I talked with John at Opentracker and he suggested that I send them to him and he would weld them up for me. Upon receiving them he notified me that they were an off shore (Taiwan) repop with no grease provision and suggested that I not use them so I bought a completed set him and he sent the sub par ones back so that I could return to Summit along with the completed pair. Yesterday I had set about to filling in the upper control arm holes before installing the rebuilt uppers into their new Shelby drop location and the new roller control arms along with the new sterring components. As I was doing so the mail lady dropped off the spring compressor I had ordered off Ebay as suggested, thank you gtxpress.
(http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/1038014/fullsize/20141003_204245.jpg)
The front suspension is now installed with the exception of another small glitch. The drivers side spindle had been replaced with a large bearing spindle so while I was gathering parts for the front end upgrade I had also purchased an NOS spindle. While I had the new bearings and races I had not even considered that the washer and nut used to retain the rotor would also be larger so a trip into town tomorrow for some more parts should see that upgrade complete and I will be ready to proceed. A quick touch up of the engine bay paint and it will be time to drop the engine back into its rightful place, hoping to be running by next weekend. Some exhaust work and realignment will be needed before I can test things out on the road then it will be time to setup a return to the chassis dyno for data and tuning. One last cruise planned and possibly a trip down the track before it will be time to put it away for winter.
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I assume that spring compressor on E Bay is for changing components but won't allow removal of the spring from the car? Or maybe the spring comes off with the spring perch after the upper arm is removed? Am I missing something? I have a finger-type compressor I bought from Eastwood some years ago; I've used it a half-dozen times and no issues. I've kept it clean and the threads well lubed...
Thanks,
Bruce
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Bruce, you are correct in that it does require separating the spring perch from the control arm and removing the upper control arm before the spring can be removed. The upper control arm does not need to be removed from the spindle, just the two nuts removed at the shock tower so it can be slid down and to the side.
I too had used the internal spring compressor many times to remove the springs on my '66 Fairlane, '67 Mustang and '67 & '68 Cougar's and I had never had an issue but while removing the springs on my Comet I was awakened to the fact that I was not immune to the dangers. I had compressed the spring and gingerly pulled it out of the fender while fully aware that things can happen and as I went to lay it down on its side the spring compressor released and so did my bowels (figuratively). Fortunately I was not injured. This was on the passenger side which happened to be the first one that I had removed that day and being only half way done I on the drivers side employed a couple very large pairs of channel lock pliers for handling the spring. There was not a repeat issue how ever after narrowly missing becoming a statistic I decided that the risk was in fact too great and that even the smallest of medical bills would far offset the cost, not to mention that I am averse unnecessary pain and not the gambling sort, I coughed up the $80 for the safer alternative. It is a bit more work (doing things the right way often does require a little more effort) but not really since in this case it all had to come apart anyhow so it only changed the manor in which I reassembled things. For someone who is only replacing their springs it does add a couple extra steps but it also keeps them from contributing to that new wing on their local hospital and/or the Mediterranean vacation home for the ER doc.
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11 years have passed and I finally have data to share but first a quick recap.
This thread was started as I upgraded from a set of mildly ported C6AE-R iron heads with CJ valves to a set of BBM heads from the first production run, prepped by Rob McQuarie of Blue Oval Performance.
My '66 Comet Caliente with its iron headed 445 stroker went onto the chassis dyno just prior to disassembly in 2014, recording 309 rwhp. When built, the engine had dynoed at 465 bhp with the iron heads and with the BBM heads it was "gonkulated" to put out 539 bhp and 365 rwhp.
Other than the passage of time this is a straight forward comparison as there were only two changes made, the BBM heads, and Harland Sharp roller tipped rockers that replaced OE 427 adjustables with POP stands. The engine was reinstalled in 2025 then dynoed on the same chassis dyno where it recorded 366hp for a gain of 57 rwhp.
Please read the full thread for more details
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Congrats!
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Werby is always close. Almost right on
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Sweet !! The Gonkulator was pretty accurate, is Werby still around ?
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Sweet !! The Gonkulator was pretty accurate, is Werby still around ?
It would appear that he's not been active in this group for some time but he does remain active in another FE forum as well as one for Torinos.
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love the car,i have a factory black 66 comet caliente ,mine came with a white vinyl top but i removed it.factory 390 4 speed y code,im on my 4th engine,428 bbm heads,hs rockers,hooker comps.i have owned it 43 years.nos if needed