FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: fe66comet on June 24, 2014, 03:34:30 PM
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I was sure if I was going to step i do do on this one but here it goes. If I have a projected level of 675- 700 HP with fuel injection. Where would my torque level be with a 4.25 stroke 4.080 bore (445). My plan is 1175 cfm on the throttle body with a trick flow Cleveland Box R intake, runners flow 300 cfm. Headers are 1.75 primary with 3" collectors, full length exhaust behind the rear tire. Camshaft has 594/598 lift,287/293 duration @112*. Cylinder heads are Edelbrock performer with a full race prep from Barry with stage x valves and 11/32 guides. Topping it of is a set of T&D race rockers with Beehive springs. Compression is 10:1 with a 1500-6500 rpm range. Any suggestions as to torque this engine might produce? Thanks Jon
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Multiply cubic inches by 1.2, and you should be close(534). However, camshaft and compression will affect that considerably. Joe-JDC
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I'm more curious as to how you're going to get 700 hp out of a 445 with only 10:1 compression, .600" lift, and only going to 6500. Forced induction? Spray?
The answer to that will also dictate the answer to your torque question.
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X2 on what Brent says. I'm building a similar 445, with a slightly bigger solid roller, planning to spin it to almost 7k, and I doubt it will get to 600 hp.
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His build has been discussed before.
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=1719.0
Should be interesting to see how it turns out.
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Came upon this info in Hot Rod credited to Westech Performance group: Multiply cubic inches by 1.25, =556.25, this would be estimated peak torque. Roughly 10% of this will be used up in the generation of horsepower, so multiply that figure by .9, =500.6 net torque. Multiply this number by how fast you're gonna spin the engine. I would imagine that with a range starting at 1,500 rpm you realistically would be looking at roughly 6,000 rpm if the setup is truly working hard at 1,500, so at that point you plug in the equation: HP = TQ x RPM /5,252. Therefore one could roughly assume that at 10:1 compression with all the right breathing, fuel and required goodies the thing should generate about 572 HP.
Now take that +/- a whole #%&@load of variables and you'll have the number you're looking for ;D.
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Yes but Lenz you are forgetting something
*waves the magic fuel injection wand*
hehehe
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Never mind see ya at the track lol. I get 500 hp out of a vortech 383 chevy with iron heads. If I get that out of a 20,000 dollar engine it becomes a mailbox.
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Don't let everyone discourage you. I for one would love to here more about this build as it progresses. I hope to be pleasantly supprised by your numbers when you get it all done.
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I think it will work out as most builders are getting 1.5 hp per cube in a normally aspirated engine. It just takes a lot of attention to details. The camshaft is my only concern. Internally very little resembles a FE as everything has been modeled to modern standards with a roller cam, T&D race rockers, heart shaped chambers, 350 cfm intakes. 2.20\ 1.6 valves with swirl polished tulip head and undercut stems. The intake will be fully ported and polished to flow 350 cfm into one of Jays intake adapters. I am using an electric CVR water pump with Jays manifolds and electric fans. I am also adapting 351 Windsor accessory drive brackets for serpentine drive to save 15% frictional loss vs. V belt. Also a late model alternator for higher output with less frictional drag. Fuel injection will be handled by a 1993 Mustang reprogrammed ecm to handle emissions duties also. The injection system can easily handle 700 normally aspirated HP on a 427 cubic inch SVO Cleveland block with 220 cc heads. As I said I am in the 350 cfm range and have larger valves along with a bigger displacement so that should get my peak HP from 7500 rpm on the 351 to 6200 on the FE.
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Jon, I'm following your build with interest but I still haven't read how you're going to spin a hydro/roller to 7k? I'm running a rather stout one myself and there's no way I could get 7k rpm out of it.
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Torque will be somewhere around 1.2-1.25 lb-ft per cubic inch. I wouldn't expect much more than that unless you were blowing or spraying.
So what do the heads flow at .600" lift?
If I were to make a guess as to how much hp you'll make, I would guess around 575-580. I'm sure you have nice heads, but you don't have enough cam to take advantage of them. Compression is too low, cam duration is too small.
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$20,000 seriously?
You can do a pretty stout 482 in the shed for a hell of a lot less.
I know I can.
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Most my money is in the heads, cam,induction, electronics, mass air flow conversion port work and other stuff to make things work. The bottom end is about 4000 of my cost. That does not include the fuel system or cooling either. The intake alone is 700 plus the port work is 400, Jay's adapter 400, throttle body 500 with plate. Then the power train module 600, mass air flow conversion 1200, sensor kit 300, harness 600 and all the labor to dyno tune, gaskets and all that. That is just the induction that attaches to the engine. There is still all the ignition that I have to go with it, that is another 1500. It all adds up quick as we all know.
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not to be a jerk but i'm expecting my engine to be in the 650 range
This is on ported pond heads, edelbrock victor EFI, with .675 lift long duration (i think it was 262@.05) solid roller cam and on a 511 cid motor.
I will be impressed to see what you come up with.
Course... my engine is still yet to be seen... gonna have to make a phone call on that today.
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Never mind see ya at the track lol.
All I was saying is you have lotsa *normal* parts to make 550hp. The only trick thing you mention is fuel injection.
Good luck, love to see you hit 700+
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I am thinking 675 @ 6500 and the heads with all the additional chamber and port work will be far from average. With totally reshaped and opened up heart chambers plus the bowl and port work. That is where the real gains will be. I wish I could have gone with canted valves and OHC but I am not that wealthy. Plus I got a 351 Windsor going at the same time.
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If you pull that kind of horsepower, and use it, won't you be at the extreme end of the blocks survivability?
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I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything but honestly, you will be lucky to get 550-575.
If your heart is set on 675-700 hp, then you need to bolt those heads on a 482-496, add a point or two of compression and about 30-40 more degrees cam with lift to match the heads.
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I see 5.0 engines pulling 500 hp with a set of heads, intake and cam. Also reprogrammed ecm and mass air flow conversion. If I can't. Get another 150 hp over that with 150 more cubes than there is something wrong. The cam more than likely will go once I get things going. Something more like 650/650 290/300 114 degree separation. Initially I bought the cam with the intension of burning E85 but decided to scrap that idea. I have the converted Edelbrock 750s and dual quad intake also but I changed plans. The block should hold fine with staying under 7000 rpm. I am sure I will exceed 600 hp no problem with 445 cubes as most modern two valve engines with current technology get between 1.25-1.5 hp per cube. Given that the heads, induction and ignition is set up properly. Even the aftermarket injection systems with a four barrel throttle body are still a step backwards that is why the OEM did away with it. Basically I am using a FE block and rotating assembly and putting a modern mustang induction and cylinder head design on it. I have built small block Ford and Chevy engines with a good set of Dart heads that made over 500 hp with under 400 cubic inches.
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This all kinda got me thinking, remember when 500 hp was a big deal on the street. Now it is normal just go to the dealer and buy a Mustang, Camaro or Challenger. Instant 500 plus HP with a warranty and 30 plus miles to the gallon. Man the competition is getting rough when a blonde haired bank teller spanks your big block LOL.
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This all kinda got me thinking, remember when 500 hp was a big deal on the street. Now it is normal just go to the dealer and buy a Mustang, Camaro or Challenger. Instant 500 plus HP with a warranty and 30 plus miles to the gallon. Man the competition is getting rough when a blonde haired bank teller spanks your big block LOL.
New cars with big HP. It's funny, when the mod motor first came out, the DOHC 4.6 in the Cobra was a hot rod. Only 305 HP. A few years later Ford even got in trouble for the engines not making he advertised HP. Now 15 years later and lots of technology they are making 420 from the factory with a little more size, in a regular GT.
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I see 5.0 engines pulling 500 hp with a set of heads, intake and cam. Also reprogrammed ecm and mass air flow conversion. If I can't. Get another 150 hp over that with 150 more cubes than there is something wrong. The cam more than likely will go once I get things going. Something more like 650/650 290/300 114 degree separation. Initially I bought the cam with the intension of burning E85 but decided to scrap that idea. I have the converted Edelbrock 750s and dual quad intake also but I changed plans. The block should hold fine with staying under 7000 rpm. I am sure I will exceed 600 hp no problem with 445 cubes as most modern two valve engines with current technology get between 1.25-1.5 hp per cube. Given that the heads, induction and ignition is set up properly. Even the aftermarket injection systems with a four barrel throttle body are still a step backwards that is why the OEM did away with it. Basically I am using a FE block and rotating assembly and putting a modern mustang induction and cylinder head design on it. I have built small block Ford and Chevy engines with a good set of Dart heads that made over 500 hp with under 400 cubic inches.
I specialize in Ford engines and have built a ton of FE's and a ton of SBF's, including big inch Windsors (427-445) and Clevelands. I will tell you straight up that you won't see a 5.0 Ford making 500 hp with just a head, intake, and cam swap. Desktop Dyno may tell you that, or a liberal dyno'd magazine article will tell you that, but it doesn't happen in the real world.
On the dyno I use, here's what it takes to make 650-700 hp...
1. 445 ci Windsor, with ported TFS TW-R heads that flowed about 345 cfm @ .700" lift. Cam was 260/264 @ .050" Bullet solid roller, 109 LSA, .700" net lift, ported Super Victor intake manifold, Racetec pistons with 1.5/1.5/3mm ring pack, etc, etc. It made 662 hp @ 6900 with 577 lb-ft of torque. That engine used a Callies crank, Oliver rods, Isky Red Zone lifters, stud girdle, dry sump, etc. It was around 10.7:1 compression, runs on 93 octane, Quick Fuel Q-950 carb.
2. 445 ci Windsor, with ported TFS TW-R heads. Joe Craine ported the heads for this engine and for the engine above, and I'm sure you will understand that it doesn't get any more "heart shaped" than a TW-R chamber. Cam was a 250/250 @ .050" hydraulic roller cam, with .640" lift, 112 LSA. Massaged Super Victor intake, Probe pistons, Scat crank and rods. It made 586 hp @ 6200. Quick Fuel Q-850 carb.
3. 487ci FE, with Pond heads ported by Keith Craft. These flowed right at 350 cfm @ .750" lift with 266 cfm on the exhaust side. Again, a very modern combustion chamber with good port work. Intake manifold was a ported Victor FE intake, cam was a Bullet solid roller, 263/268 @ .050", .700" net valve lift, 110 LSA. 10.7:1 compression ratio, running a custom Quick Fuel carb. It made 638 hp @ 6600 with 567 lb-ft @ 5200.
4. 487ci FE, with Pond heads ported by Keith Craft. Same flow numbers as above, intake was a Tunnel Wedge, cam was a Comp Cams solid roller, 262/268 @ .050", .700" net valve lift, 108 LSA, 10.5:1, running a pair of Quick Fuel carbs. It made 622 hp @ 6400, with 589 lb-ft @ 4600.
5. Building a 496 FE right now, with Keith Craft's Stage 3 Edelbrocks. Heads should flow between 360-370 @ .750". This is not a cheap build, with a custom Scat forged crank, Super Light, cut for SBC rod journal size, running Oliver rods, Diamond pistons with a .043/.043/3mm ring pack, cam is a Bullet solid roller 270/280 @ .050", .750" net lift, 112 LSA, with 11:1 compression and a Tunnel Wedge. This is a 7500 rpm engine, and I hope to make 700 hp with it on pump gas.
Now, I will say this....the Stuska dyno that I use is about 5-6% low compared to the Super Flow across town, and a DTS that I've used in Cincinnati. However, the point I'm trying to make is that it takes a whole lot of engine to make an honest 600 hp, and even more specialized parts than that to make 675-700.
I'm sure your heads are top notch if Barry set them up, but a heart shaped chamber is not going to make the difference between 550 hp and 675. They may flow 350 cfm as you say, but at what lift is it? .700"? .750"? What do they flow at .600"? By the time you look at your cam, factor in discrepancies in rocker arm ratio, pushrod deflection, valvetrain geometry mismatches, etc., you're probably looking at around .590" lift at the valve.
A cam with only 230° @ .050" is a truck cam in a 445. You should at least be looking at 10 degrees more duration, and probably a switch to a solid roller. FE's don't like hydraulic rollers above 6000-6200 and unless you've hooked up with Barry and snagged a set of his EMC lifters, your FE won't like the rpms either. I've built a lot of hydraulic roller FE's, and have played with oil pressure, spring pressure, lifter preload, etc., and you just can't get to the higher rpms without some specialized block work, cam profiles, valve springs (more pressure than your beehives will have), and lifters.
Again, I'm saying all of this to try and help you out, as I think you're very methodical in your planning and execution. However, you simply don't have enough engine to get into the 600's. My advice would be to shy away from the computer simulations, magazine articles, and pick the brains of a few FE specialized engine builders.
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But Brent, all V8`s with fancy valve covers make 500 HP.
You know that. :P
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FWIW In this post I had no idea you had such high hp and rpm goals
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=1974.0
The cam you have now is probably a 475-500 horse cam assuming the heads are as good as you say. The cam you were asking about would have made less at the peaks.
I agree with Brent, if you do want that RPM and looking to hit a number like that, you'll need a bit more. Your induction seems to meet the requirements, double the airflow on the intake side for a good WAG on potential if everything matches., but to hit your big numbers, you'll need more cam, probably significantly more compression to take advantage of it, and don't ignore primary pipe size. I'd run a 2 inch primary pipe once you get it all matched
Keep in mind, even then, that's a lot to ask for a 4.08 inch bore. Good luck, sounds like a very cool project, especially with the EEC-IV and the cool intake combo
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I already ordered a set of 627 Doug's headers, they should do the trick I think. They are 2" primary with a 3.5 collector then I am running into a 3.5 x pipe with dumps. After that I am using two 3.5 strait through GESI cats into two Borla 3.5 stainless packed strait through perforated tube mufflers. To keep thing quiet I am going with a set of Vibrant strait through resonators behind the rear wheels. I upsized everything due to the availability of header size, technically I require 1 7/8 primaries with a 3" collector and a 54" tube length. Obviously those would be a custom part and restrictive on available space so I upped the tube to compensate and used the longest primary I could find.
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What are you using to calculate the primary tubes?
1 7/8 and 54" looks like a second harmonic calculation and size looks like it's driving a low rpm peak. Matter of fact, both dimensions are intended for low rpm torque and not at all what it would want for a 6200+ rpm peak.
I certainly think your motor, as built, will like the 1 7/8, but to pull the numbers you are thinking it will make on top, length would be between 24 and 34 inches IMHO and somewhere closer to 2 inch primaries.
Let me reiterate though, that it looks like an awesome, well matched, 475-500 horsepower cruiser, from inlet to tailpipe, but I cannot figure for the life of me how you are adding up to the power and rpm range you think you'll be running.
My 489 is a well blueprinted hot rod. EEC-IV with all the tricks, ported intake, oversize TB and MAF, heads done well for an Edelbrock, although slightly less head flow than you (only slightly), it's dialed in to a knife edge, has a lot more cam, and I couldn't imagine the numbers you are estimating.
This is fun bench racing, so please don't take offense but I am at a loss of what is driving these hp/tq and rpm estimates and add the exhaust calcs, something is not jiving
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Should be interesting to see how it works out. Barry's 433 did 711hp at engine masters this year, at or below 6500rpm, so it can be done without going nuts on the cam. I believe Barry has posted some particulars on that motor, not sure on cam specs, but can make an assumption that it's not too wild on duration based on RPM. Assume it's an aggressive lobe. These motors were hydraulic roller and limited to 11.5:1, so again there is nothing too racy in those specs. No titanium valves allowed so it's a well sorted package to get a steel valve hydro to rpm that well with an aggressive cam.
I do not at all discount all the detail work and high end prep that goes into these EM motors. They're also maximized for dyno time with ramp rates and ring tension that may not really be feasible for a true street motor. I think everyone would agree that a typical combo with these specs would be around 550hp for a pretty good motor, yet the engine masters guys seem to pull 100-150hp out of these combos without doing it with RPM. Understand the heads are cutting edge and maximized for the combination, so that's a large chunk. But still amazing what they are able to do.
Possible...sure.....easy....no. Would like to see what's possible with a package that will live in the real world?
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Chilly, you are correct in that Barry's last EMC engine would be a good comparison here.
Comparatively speaking, he was pulling to a 7000 peak, had a point and a half more compression, more cam, 20 cfm more on the head (and I would bet that the cam profile was using the high lift numbers), plus he was running a short deck block, which if he played the geometry right, would give everything a straight-in shot to the valves. When you're able to move the heads around on the block, move the ports around, move the valves around, and move the intake runners around, you can get away from some of the inherent negatives about the FE top end.
With that being said, having done all that, it was a 700 hp engine. As I mentioned earlier, it takes a whole lot of finagling to get the big numbers out of smaller engines.
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BarryR also did it with a 4.350 inch bore and a Genesis Block which no doubt had thicker walls even at that bore than a 390 block at a 4.080 bore.
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Here are the generic specs Barry gave on his engine from last year. The numbers at EMC were quite a bit higher than what he achieved with his dyno going in.
"This years rules call for 11.5:1 compression, hydraulic roller cams, an RPM band from 3000 to 7000 RPM. We must run a 4150 flange throttle body or carb, along with a host of other rules. Only one class this year.
I built another 433 inch package - working within some significant time and budget constraints. The crank is a Ford steel offset ground to 3.640 stroke and the 6.70 rods are both items I already owned. I also re-used the tricked up Blue Thunder dual plane intake from a prior year.
I am running my head castings this time - for promotional reasons. These are the first set I've had with full porting and a CNC program run on them. They actually flow really well, with peaks of 369cfm at around .700 lift. But the port position for both intake and exhaust are pretty low (they are normal medium riser heights) and the sizes rather large for the EMC type of event - where the BT high risers are near perfect.
The block is unique - one of two short deck Genesis blocks they cast, with a deck height of 9.90. An advantage in certain racing categories but really just a curiosity here.
We are running EFI, which looks pretty cool on the dual plane intake.
Rules mandated an oil pan with a sump - I have one from a 391 Ford truck - probably a garbage truck or something - that should get some attention among all the trick billet stuff.
I've run a couple different cams on this one and the smaller one - 236@.050 and .713 lift with 1.9 rockers will make a bigger EMC score with torque peaks of 574. The larger one with 244@.050 and .724 lift made more horsepower with a peak of 668. Since the scores are close - within 20 points - I'm leaving the big one in 'cuz it looks better in print. "
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That is an impressive package if I say so myself, what kind of fuel are you running and what octane? I would like to higher compression but not sure how far I can go before going to E85? I have a friend that runs a 429 @ 12:1 but clatters like a loose muffler clamp on pump gas. He uses aviation fuel @109 octane but has to drive three towns away to get it and at 9 bucks a gallon it is pricy to say the least. He does however pump out over 600 hp on the chassis dyno, he won't give exact numbers but it definitely has the power as he snapped a 31 spline forged Currie axle on slicks. Honestly if I get to 650 hp I will be a happy camper, that should be more than the vehicle can control with a tremec T-56 and a short wheelbase of 128" . I am hoping to get it lightened up to 3200 or so with glass panels. And tubular front end.
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You are going to be a very sad camper. You will have nowhere near 650 hp. Seriously man, you need to change a lot of stuff...trying to be straight up with you.
I still haven't figured out why you think you would even be anywhere in the realm of 650 hp.....????
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That is an impressive package if I say so myself, what kind of fuel are you running and what octane? I would like to higher compression but not sure how far I can go before going to E85? I have a friend that runs a 429 @ 12:1 but clatters like a loose muffler clamp on pump gas. He uses aviation fuel @109 octane but has to drive three towns away to get it and at 9 bucks a gallon it is pricy to say the least. He does however pump out over 600 hp on the chassis dyno, he won't give exact numbers but it definitely has the power as he snapped a 31 spline forged Currie axle on slicks. Honestly if I get to 650 hp I will be a happy camper, that should be more than the vehicle can control with a tremec T-56 and a short wheelbase of 128" . I am hoping to get it lightened up to 3200 or so with glass panels. And tubular front end.
Barry has been helping you with this, he should be able to answer your questions since its his engine.
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128" is not a short wheel base. A 66 comet wheel base is 116", did you move something to get it to 128"?
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No it is going into an extended cab ranger with glass box sides,doors, fenders, hood and bumpers. Also putting a tubular K member in it. The Comet I am doing a 580 cube 385 series. I ran across an aftermarket block with a 4.5 forged Scat stroker crank. Guy lost his job needed fast cash, yummy for me LOL. Never liked that guy anyhow.
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I have enjoyed reading this thread, lots of good info. It seems that jon has set the bar high with his current parts. I was wondering what would have to be changed to get to 675-700 hp? Cam and compession? Hotrod magazine had the Joe Sherman 428 build where he made 605 hp with basic bolt on parts and 4.25 crank. There is a thread obout that on the other fe forum. At the end of it Keith Kraft says it should be easy, we got iron headed 10.8 compression 440 c.i. making 740 hp through a 735 carb. I know that a pro stock fe is a way different animal, I think they measure duration in days not @.50. ;D Either way I'd like to see jon hit that big number.
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It looks like I would have to go to a solid roller but I hate to ditch the hydraulic rollers I have now. There was a discussion here about whether you could uses a hydraulic lifter on a solid camshaft. I think one issue is clearance on the ramp as the lifter is designed for a lower lift. I looked at Barry's cam selections and he does have one with something like 649/650@114*. I wonder is it would work with my lifters? Compression wise I can have the heads milled a little more when I get the stage 3 port and chamber work as the heads will have to be resized anyhow, question is when does compression become a hinderence with premium Shell gas?
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With the right cam, tune, and 93 octane, you should be able to approach 11:1.
Considering the fact that you already have T&D race rockers, I would go with a solid roller cam.
Regardless, you will still need a lot more inches, more compression, and a healthy cam to get to 675 hp.
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On the other thread I have going I am thinking a 254/260 670/670 @114* camshaft. Compression I cam adjust with a head gasket also. 11:1 would be nice for sure and the computer also adjusts timing somewhat for detonation with a knock sensor.
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Wait until you get the heads before you buy the cam. The flow will dictate the duration and the flow vs lift numbers will dictate the cam lift. If you run a decent cam with .670 gross lift, by the time you adjust for valve lash, you're only at .650-.660".
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That is what I thought as most solid cams run .020 or so. I have solid cams in all our tractors. The Ford N series, Allis Chalmers and John Deere two cylinders run that way. My 26 Chrysler runs a little tighter @.015.
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I have been thinking again ( dangerous) maybe do the injection, leave the camshaft and have the heads done. Then I can see where I am at and chance the cam later as I already have it installed. Can't hurt to run it and see what happens, changing the cam is not a big deal afterwards. I will prep the heads for future clearance for more lift. I have beehive springs so I might be already there and the rate was 375 if I recall. I can always add a rev kit to hold things down also later on. Either way I want to keep things around 2500- 6500 after that I will have to do further machine work on the bottom end which I wish I would have done to begin with but at the time did not know better. My though on that is a main girdle to pull off the walls and support the weak webbing. Another factor is how light I get the truck, as there is only so much I can put to the ground with only a few hundred pounds back there and a four link. I did a S10 with a buddy @ 400 hp and stock suspension with snubber bars, it was hard to control even with a locker and automatic trans.
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If you switch cams later to a solid roller, you'll have to change everything including the springs, retainers, cups, and everything. Solid roller spring pressures can approach 250-300 lb seat and 600-650 open.
Rev kit?
I think you need to familiarize yourself with the FE architecture before you go any further. This isn't a sbc.
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The installed height I have now is 1.9, I am not aware of a taller spring than that. I used the softer of the two available Comp Cams beehive springs available. The most I would have to do is change the springs to the heavier 450 rate spring. The head is already set up for the 670 lift camshaft. As far as a rev kit a universal kit would work but really I would only be after more spring rate. I will never spin the engine past 7 grand either way so a huge spring is really not necessary anyhow.
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You adjust the install height with different retainers and locks.
Trust me, a beehive spring will be adequate for a hydraulic roller, but nowhere near enough for a solid roller. Don't look at the spring rates alone, look at install height and height at full lift.
A universal rev kit? Go outside and stare at your engine and explain to me how a rev kit works on an FE.
Again, not trying to be a butt, but I think you better consult with an engine builder or two before you continue with anything on this project.
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You would be surprised what I have seen done and already done myself. I am not as green as you assume. I have custom engine parts made all the time as many do not exist anymore and I do not have an example or the part is completely destroyed. If everyone assumed it could not be done we would be driving stock engines and there would be no need for engineers. Check out comp cams # 26095-1.
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I've used that spring for hydraulic rollers. At your install height you'd have around 150 lbs seat pressure. If you plan to use a solid roller, you need another spring. Bottom line.
I'm not discounting your ability, but you need to spend a few more hours around an FE. Look at some pictures of some FE's with the intake off, then come back and tell me why a universal rev kit won't work.
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If the lifter protrudes past the bore it can be done, I do it on tractor puller engines that were never even conceived to pull more than 20 HP and 1500 rpm. Anyhow it won't be necessary either way so it is a mute point. I will never spin past 7000 rpm anyhow on this build. Really I could just go with 7psi of boost and get everything I want HP wise. Then at least a double would be a necessity but my lift would be the same as it is now.