FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => Member Projects => Topic started by: jayb on June 10, 2014, 08:08:52 PM
-
I regularly find myself bemoaning the fact that I always seem to be behind schedule on my various projects. Many of my friends, and my wife, always point out that I am trying to do too much all at once. I have no doubt that this is true; perhaps it is a feature of my personality that I'm not happy without several balls in the air at once, so to speak.
Here is the latest "ball in the air". Knowing full well I would get my share of flack from machoneman (LOL!), I embarked on another project reminiscent of the old products from Pro-Stock Engineering. I had always admired their timing cover, with the removable plate allowing access to the top cam gear. I thought the basic idea was great, but that it needed a few more features to really take it to the limit. So, several months ago I started drawing up the FE Power timing cover. I did this in 2D CAD, and then the pattern maker that I have been working with on the intake adapters turned it into a 3D model. Here are a couple of screen shots of the machined model:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/tcoverpic1.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/tcoverpic2.jpg)
Let me point out some of the features of this timing cover. First, of course, there is the large opening allowing access to the top cam gear and the cam. The cover for this is going to be a laser cut steel plate. Notice the groove around the large opening; this is for an O-ring seal, so that no gasket will be required to seal the opening. I chose a steel plate for the cover to make sure it was rigid enough to compress the O-ring evenly between the attachment bolts, for a good seal. I will provide button head cap screws to bolt on the plate, and powder coat it for a nice appearance.
You will also notice five extra bosses on this cover, around the opening for the crankshaft. These will be drilled and tapped as blind holes, for use in attaching brackets to the timing cover. With my experiences in EFI I think it would be very helpful to be able to attach a bracket for a crank sensor directly to the top surface of the timing cover. In addition, with most electric water pumps available these days there is no provision for mounting brackets to hold the alternator or other accessories (my CVR water pump adapters being the exception). Especially for a low mount alternator, I thought that bosses like this would be very useful for use as a starting point for brackets if an electric water pump was used. Also, on the back side of the cover these bosses have some strengthening ribs; they may even be strong enough to use as a motor plate mount, although I'm really not sure about that at this point.
Also, there is a raised area around the crankshaft opening on the front of the cover. This is there so that a front seal can be installed in this position. Now, the back side of the cover also has the standard position for the front seal. The idea here is that you can use two seals, one reversed, and be able to seal the engine either with a vacuum pump/dry sump, or if the engine is running normally with some pressure in the crankcase. I've often run vacuum pumps on my engines, and usually I run with them disconnected on the street, so that you need the regular front seal. But when you connect them at the track, you need the reverse seal for optimum sealing. With the two seals, your engine is sealed up either way. One question about this approach, by the way, is will the front seal survive if the back seal is working effectively; in other words, if the front seal is not exposed to oil, will it eventually burn up? I was talking to Blair Patrick about this a while back when I was doing the design, and he suggested putting a little grease between the two seals, so I'm going to try that and see if both seals will live. If they don't, well I can just machine off the boss for the seal on the front of the cover. One other idea with this is to just use the seal in the normal location, and if the seal goes out, you can install one in the front more easily than replacing the one in the normal position.
I don't know how many people have had problems stripping the corner oil pan attachment bolts out of the factory front covers, but I certainly have, so I made this area of my cover thicker to allow more thread distance. Also the bottom front bolts are extended out with a boss, so that the head of the bottom bolt doesn't interfere with a longer oil pan bolt in the corner.
On the laser cut steel cover there will be two small threaded holes for attaching a factory timing pointer. One downside to this arrangement is that you will have to remember to put some sealer on the threads of those bolts, in order to prevent an oil leak there. And one other thing about that steel cover is that it can easily be drilled for a 1/2" barrel cam sensor, and a simple target like a bolt put into the top cam gear to make the cam sensor functional. Again this is an easy way to run a cam sensor in a full sequential EFI application, without having to buy a special distributor.
Several weeks ago I pulled the trigger on the casting patterns for this design. They were done in mid-May, and today I picked up the first prototype castings. Here's a few pictures:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/tccast1.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/tccast2.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/tccast3.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/tccast4.jpg)
The squared-off part at the top of the opening is there for initial fixturing purposes only, and will be machined off as shown in the CAD model during the machining operations. I was ready to get started with the machining programs a couple of weeks ago but I am still behind on getting some of the intake adapter machining programs finished (such as the one for CHI ports in my standard intake adapter, and the standard version of the high riser adapter), so I was a little conflicted about starting this project. As it turned out, though, the pattern maker has some free time on his CNC machines, and he was able to quote me a very competitive price for machining these things. So, on the castings themselves I won't have to machine them myself at all, at least at first; the pattern guys are going to make all the fixtures so that they will work on my machine or on theirs, and are willing to machine the first 100 castings. That frees me up to keep going on the intake adapters. I will have to do some very minor machine work on the steel cover plates, and also powder coat them, but this won't require a significant time investment.
For this particular product I'm going to use the same rationale that I used for the FE intake adapters, which is to try to sell 100 covers and amortize my tooling costs over those covers. I think I should be able to sell 100 of them, but we will see. They'll be priced at around $225 complete. After I get the first prototypes machined, hopefully within the next month or so, I will test one out on one of my dyno mules, and if everything looks good, I'll post an ad in the vendor classifieds and start a list of people who want one.
So, what do you guys think? Will this be a worthwhile product?
-
I like it...I have a PSE cover and I had to fab up my own timing pointer as the cast cover has no provision and I didn't feel safe tapping the thin cast aluminum .I like the double seal Idea....The price is less than I paid for the PSE cover.....I would buy one.......Cory
(http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm220/427Fastback/1968%20Fastback/0014_zps21ff4d84.jpg) (http://s297.photobucket.com/user/427Fastback/media/1968%20Fastback/0014_zps21ff4d84.jpg.html)
-
Hahahahha! LOL!
-
I'm compelled to buy one just so it matches my intake adapter. Would be a good choice with a radiator-mounted water pump so the front of the engine would be accessible.
-
I have a 60 352, with steel cover,, would that timing pointer and balancer be able to be used with this cover or would it need to be changed to a later yr setup
-
Hmmm, I don't know. Do you have a picture of the timing cover and balancer installed on the engine?
-
Hmmm, sneaking around behind our backs huh? :)
I think the cover is a great idea. And as has been discussed before, a timing chain system with an indexable top gear would be a fantastic setup. The Hex-adjust has issues staying put from what I've read, so a gear with multiple pin locations seems like a much better idea and MUCH cheaper than a Danny Bee belt drive. That would make the perfect combo for this cover. I'm in when the time comes.
-
the only one clear enough without the water pump on
(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff267/new_falcon_owner/falcon/004-9.jpg)
-
Put me down for production cover #1. :D I love the design and engineering upgrades you've put into it. I'd love to sand-cast a custom access plate that is finned, that would look sweet with a pair of finned valve covers.
-
the only one clear enough without the water pump on
(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff267/new_falcon_owner/falcon/004-9.jpg)
It looks like it would fit, because the two bolts holding the pointer on the cover appear to be in the same location as the later versions. Hard to say for sure without actually trying it, but I think even if it was off a little, the pointer could be modified to work.
-
Put me down for production cover #1. :D I love the design and engineering upgrades you've put into it. I'd love to sand-cast a custom access plate that is finned, that would look sweet with a pair of finned valve covers.
I originally wanted to do a machined aluminum cover with fins, but that idea went out the window as I was doing the design. The water pump comes very, very close to the front of the timing cover, and the extra thickness of the finned aluminum cover (3/8" thick stock was what I was going to use) caused interference between the water pump and the cover. I couldn't sink the cover in deeper towards the block to gain clearance, because of interference with the fuel pump arm and fuel pump eccentric.
No sense in doing a timing cover if the water pump won't bolt on :o As a result the 1/8" thick steel plate turned out to be the way to go. Even the bolts are critical, I have to use button head cap screws for clearance to some of the rear cover bolts on an Edelbrock water pump.
I'm not putting together a list yet, but watch this thread for an announcement for when I do.
-
my timing pointer isn't bolt on, its welded on, but could drill out spot welds :)
-
Wow another beautiful part. I'll have to have one.
I wonder if it will work with front engine mount set up.
Bob
-
I hope it will. It is pretty well reinforced around the crankshaft area, and of course there are four bolts that go directly into the block, with 3/8-16 thread, that hold the timing cover itself on. This is the same bolt size as a water pump uses and a lot of people use the water pump bolt holes for a motor plate mount...
-
my timing pointer isn't bolt on, its welded on, but could drill out spot welds :)
I guess I mistook the spot welds for bolts in the photo. It does fit on the timing cover in the correct spot, so I'll bet you could make it work...
-
cool,, I will watch for updates :)
-
Any plans to offer one without the fuel pump provision?
Josh
-
Hmmmm, I could do that I guess, just by machining off the parts of the casting used for mounting the fuel pump, and not putting the holes for the fuel pump in. What is your reason for not having the fuel pump mount on the cover? Just one less gasket?
-
that's a great idea without having the fuel pump holes, be great for my fuel injection setup..Im into one of those ones too
-
Jay, does it use a standard FE timing cover seal? How big of a deal would it be to make it with a Cleveland seal? That way you could change seals from the front without taking the timing cover off, plus you would be able to use some of the nicer teflon seals for use with vacuum pumps.
-
It does use a standard FE seal. I confess I don't know much about the size of the Cleveland stuff. Is the Cleveland seal the correct size for the rubber seal to fit around the OD of the FE crank spacer? Do you know what the OD of the Cleveland seal is?
-
Pretty sure the sealing surface diameter is the same. The cage of the seal is different though and of course it drives in from the outside.
-
I'm using one of these seals, PN T-13690 on my race engine with the Peterson Wet-Vac pump. The seal fit into the recess in my HM marine timing cover without issue. A little pricey for a seal, but seems to do the job.
http://www.tritecmotorsports.com/Engine_Seals-Ford_Big_Block_A460-A600.htm
-
Pretty sure the sealing surface diameter is the same. The cage of the seal is different though and of course it drives in from the outside.
Thanks, maybe I'll pick one up and check it out.
-
Jay,
They look excellent. Assume the stock-type fuel pump will bolt up without issues? What color will you powder coat the steel cover? Satin black?
I happen to be in the market for 2; for a couple of 427 bare blocks just acquired... Will do a post on those soon.
Bruce
-
Yes, the stock pump will bolt up. I was looking at making the removable cover finish available in different colors, Ford dark blue, black, and a chrome-type finish. If you wanted satin black it would be no problem...
-
Hope all the testing goes well, count me in for at least one of them when time comes.
-
Looking good Jay!
-
Hmmmm, I could do that I guess, just by machining off the parts of the casting used for mounting the fuel pump, and not putting the holes for the fuel pump in. What is your reason for not having the fuel pump mount on the cover? Just one less gasket?
More or less thinking about EFI and with no need for the mechanical fuel pump provision and possibly a "cleaner" looking cover.
Josh
-
Jay,
Is there anything you dont do!? ;) LOL That is an awesome setup for sure. I always wondered if someone at some time would make one. That is a very nice setup Jay! Keep up the good work 8)
-
In regard to the cover. You could of course offer different styles. Meaning the standard is the flat covers and then offer the finned version along with whatever else you can dream up on the side as "accessories"
-
or include 1/4 in alum. spacers for the water pump so you can use the finned cover to match the intake adapter without the fuel pump opening on the side :).. Id be in for one of those ones.
-
Rick....If you space the waterpump out you will spend all day chasing your pulley alignment.....Cory
-
never thought of that. but finned cover plate would be cool though to match the intake adapter.
-
So will it in fact work with your electric pump manifolds? It would be nice for my serpentine and EFI conversions to have the extra bosses, either way I am definetly down for one as soon as available.
-
Maby make the coverplate out of stainles
then the customer could polish it for a crome
Like finish or glasbead it. to Look like the Cast
Aluminium
-
So will it in fact work with your electric pump manifolds? It would be nice for my serpentine and EFI conversions to have the extra bosses, either way I am definetly down for one as soon as available.
Yep, the water pump adapters fit with the timing cover.
-
Well it has been a while. After my first go-around with these castings I determined that there needed to be some minor modifications made to the casting tooling, so it went from the foundry back to the pattern shop for the modifications. While it was there, I got an email from the foundry saying that they couldn't honor the original price, and that the price was going up by about 20% the next time I wanted the timing covers cast >:( I wasn't going to sit still for that price increase, especially after they had done the same thing to me with the intake adapters, so I went in search of a second foundry. I found another local outfit that I liked, so after the pattern modifications were done I sent the tooling over to the new foundry. They are a little slower than the old foundry, but finally last week I got another four prototype timing covers cast up.
I'm actually having the timing covers machined at the pattern shop, because they have some spare time on their CNC equipment and it allows me to focus on the intake adapters with my machines. So, I ran the four covers over to the pattern shop. They machined two of them, and I wanted to make one little tweak to the machining after I saw them, so the pattern shop did that and tonight I picked up two pretty cool looking timing covers. I think these things are ready to go.
There's some pictures of the timing covers below. Note that there are two part numbers, 14001 and 14002; the 14002 part number is machined so that it has no provision for a factory mechanical fuel pump. Otherwise, they are the same part. In addition to the removable cover, sealed with an O-ring, they have provisions for a standard FE front seal or a 351C front seal (which installs from the front). When using the 351C front seal you are pretty close to the end of the sealing surface on the stock crank spacer, so an aftermarket crank spacer or a little machining on the factory spacer may be required; I'm not sure yet, and I really won't be until I run one of these timing covers on the dyno. They also have the additional bosses for a crank sensor bracket or some other bracketry as previously discussed. The first pictures are of the two different types of timing covers:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/2tcovers.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/2tcovers2.jpg)
Here are a couple of closer photos of the 14001 cover:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/tcover1.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/tcover2.jpg)
Here's a pictures showing the O-ring installed in the timing cover, with the cover plate next to it:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/tcoveroring.jpg)
As previously mentioned the cover plate is steel; the one above has been powder coated black. I also powder coated one blue and one silver, and assembled them on the 14001 timing cover; photos below:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/tcoverblack.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/tcoverblue.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/tcoversilver.jpg)
I think I like the silver one the best; it looks like the ceramic coating you get on headers. I thought a little bit more about doing an aluminum cover plate, with fins, kind of like the center cover plate on my intake adapters, but in order to seal against the O-ring it would have to be much thicker than the steel covers, probably 3/8" thick. Then I would also have to provide spacers to space out the water pump and the crank pulleys so that the belts would still line up, and you'd also have to be concerned about the fan hitting the radiator, alignment of the alternator, etc. It would certainly be do-able, but also probably cost prohibitive, so I think I will stick with the steel cover plates for now.
So - what do you guys think? All comments and criticisms welcome - Jay
-
The covers look fantastic. :o. Thanks for the time and dedication to these old motors to make new parts. If you leave it in a natural finish, the silver does blend the best. You can paint both pieces Ford blue so it never stands out!!
-
I think drdano asked for #1 , I'll take #2. Pm me when there ready please.
-
They look great, I especially like the provision for the addition bracket mounts and the Cleveland front seal. I'll be watch for when the production list comes out and putting my name down for one with the fuel pump provision.
-
awesome, cost for one without the fuel pump provisions with the silver plate?
-
Nice Jay, When are you taking orders? You can sign me up for one with the fuel pump mount, Garry
-
I think they look great. Put me down for one to start off with.
I'm curious if this will work with my new gear drive unit for the F2. I haven't had a chance to fit it too the block yet. Hopefully later this week.
Awesome work as always!!
-
Those are awesome looking. I agree the with the powder coat choice!
-
Another vote for the silver. They look great, my only concern would be with the spacing on the plate bolts. Do you think enough tension will be maintained on the O-ring to keep it from leaking? They're spaced pretty far apart in a couple areas. I'd also like to get in line for one of the 140002 covers, but I assume you won't take orders until they're placed in the vendors section?
-
Another vote for the silver. They look great, my only concern would be with the spacing on the plate bolts. Do you think enough tension will be maintained on the O-ring to keep it from leaking? They're spaced pretty far apart in a couple areas. I'd also like to get in line for one of the 140002 covers, but I assume you won't take orders until they're placed in the vendors section?
Boy, I sure hope they don't leak LOL! The steel plate is 0.125" thick and pretty rigid, so I don't think I'll have any problems, but that's why I want to put one on the engine on the dyno and check it before I offer them up as a production item. And you are correct Doug, I haven't started the list yet, and when I do an advertisement for these timing covers will appear in the Vendor Classifieds. Thanks to everyone who has expressed interest in purchasing one; please get back to me on that after I put them up for sale in the Vendor Classifieds - Jay
-
Clear cover plate to go with you clear valve covers.....
-
Nice timing covers.You have`t thought about making
coverplates out of stainles steel? Then there is the option
to polish it to get a cromelike finnish or glasbead it to
look like aluminium
-
Can't wait till they are ready, my EFI project would be a lot easier with one of them!!!!
-
They look mighty nice, and I've got a couple of 427 blocks that need covers! Looking forward to the dyno results.
Bruce
-
As was correctly pointed out sometime back in this thread, or somewhere else maybe, having the removable plate on the timing cover isn't all that useful unless you can change your cam timing with it off. Back when I started the timing cover project I decided I needed a plan for doing that, and it didn't involve using the commercially available "hex-adjust" chains from Cloyes, which didn't look to me like a real reliable solution. I did some drawings and came up with a plan on how to modify an FE timing set to make changing the cam timing possible from the top gear position, and then set it all aside while I worked on the timing covers.
When I got the timing covers more or less dialed in a couple weeks ago, I decided to go back and address the adjustable top timing gear. I've been working on that for the past couple of weekends, and have discovered some rather interesting things about the FE timing gear sets that are available out there. I'll get to that stuff in a minute, but first, since a picture is worth a thousand words, here is a top timing gear that is modified so that the cam timing can be changed with the front plate of my timing cover removed:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/Rollmastermach.jpg)
This is a spare Rollmaster timing gear that I had in my parts box. I was interested in using Rollmaster sets because they come with the good Iwis timing chain, and I also have one on my 428CJ dyno mule, which is the engine I'm planning to test with next weekend. The original hole for the cam pin is marked with a "0" on the gear now, and six more holes have been put in the gear. The mark above each hole represents where that hole is in terms of timing, as compared to the original hole. All marks are in crank degrees, not cam degrees. Assuming that you are at TDC on the number one cylinder, to use straight up cam timing you would put the tooth marked with the factory dimple straight down, and put the cam pin in the hole marked zero. To advance the cam 4 degrees, you would put the tooth that is marked "+4" straight down, and put the cam pin in the hole marked "+4". All other cam degreeing is done the same way. This gear is set up so that you can advance or retard the cam plus or minus 6 crank degrees, in 2 degree increments.
With one of these Rollmaster sets, and many other sets of course, you also can advance or retard the cam timing at the crank gear. The way I would envision using this setup when building an engine is to set the cam up degreed the way you think you'd want it (whether advanced or retarded, or straight up), using the crank gear. Then, you could fine tune the cam timing using the cam gear, through the opening in the timing cover, after the engine was all put together. You'd just have to pull the water pump, and then pull the front plate on the timing cover, to change your cam timing.
When I first got going on this project last weekend, I pulled out the timing sets that I had on hand and started looking at them in detail. I found quite a few differences in critical dimensions on these things. Here's a picture of the four upper timing gears that I had on hand:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/4tgears.jpg)
On the upper left is the Rollmaster, the upper right gear is from some outfit called JR Performance, the lower right is the standard performance Cloyes gear, and the lower left is the top end Cloyes gear. Both the Cloyes sets, and the Rollmaster set, come with the good Iwis timing chain; the JR Performance set came with a chain from India. (Danger, Will Robinson LOL!) One thing that struck me right off the bat was that on three of the gears, the mark on the outside cam tooth was on the opposite side of the center hole as the cam pin, but on the high end Cloyes set, the mark on the gear, and the cam pin, are on the same side of the center hole. I wonder why they did that? The motor won't care, but the high end Cloyes gear seems very unconventional.
After getting these things out I started measuring them. I have a set of plug gauges in 0.0005" diameter increments to measure the center hole and the cam pin hole. Both the Cloyes gears measured a perfect 0.7500", just barely allowing my pin to go through the center hole. The JR Performance gear measured 0.749", and the Rollmaster measured 0.7485"! Also, looking inside the Rollmaster center hole it was clear that it was an interference fit on the cam, on whichever engine I'd installed it on. There were lines and burrs on that inside diameter. Since I was going to have to make a fixture to hold these things, it was clear that the fixture wasn't going to fit both the Cloyes and the Rollmaster gears. In the end I solved this problem by using a removable pin as the center post of the fixture, and grinding the OD of the pin down a couple of thousandths so it would fit inside the Rollmaster gear. But again I have to wonder about the rationale at Rollmaster to make the center hole a press fit, rather than a slip fit like the Cloyes gears are. Maybe a more secure connection to the cam or something?
The situation was similar when I started measuring the cam pin holes in the gears. Both Cloyes gears and the JR gear measured 0.3120" for the cam pin hole diameter, but the Rollmaster measured 0.3110". I had a billet roller cam handy on the bench and it measured exactly 0.3125", which I think is what it is supposed to measure. So it appears that the cam pin should be a press into the top timing gear, but it was much more of a press on the Rollmaster gear than on the others. Again, I don't know why.
After figuring all this out I wanted to confirm that these measurements were consistent on the Rollmaster sets, so I gave Doug Garifo at Precision Oil Pumps a call and had him send me a new Rollmaster set, just so I could check it; it is supposed to arrive this week. In the meantime, I got to work designing a fixture to hold the top timing gear while I machined it. Since the dyno mule I'll be running the timing cover on already has a Rollmaster set in it, I decided to do the Rollmaster fixture first. Here's a picture of it, with the gear installed and already machined, on my smaller CNC machine:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/chainonfix.jpg)
Those little clamps hold the gear in place while I'm machining it, and the gear itself indexes on a pin in the center hole, and a 1/4" pin that is installed on the left side of the gear, to mesh with one particular pair of teeth.
Next on my list is to do the high end Cloyes gear. I think I'm probably not going to do the standard Cloyes gear, because the timing gear itself is cast iron rather than steel, and I'm a little concerned that putting all these extra holes in the middle of the gear might weaken the cast iron gear too much. What do you guys think? I'm much less worried about the top end Cloyes and the Rollmaster gears, because they are steel, not cast iron. The Cloyes gear also offers the opportunity for me to drill and tap a few holes in the middle, so that I could install a cam sensor target on this gear. Then I could put a matching hole in the front plate of the timing cover, and offer anyone going with EFI an easy route to installing a cam sensor. That would be pretty cool, I think...
Over the Thanksgiving weekend I plan to get my 428CJ back on the dyno, probably with a different set of headers along with one of these timing sets and timing covers, and then run some back to back dyno pulls by changing the cam timing through the whole range of of adjustability that this modified top gear offers. They always say that you will improve low end torque by advancing the cam, and improve high end horsepower by retarding it. We will see next weekend if that holds true on this particular engine. I will post the results in the technical section next weekend, barring any unforeseen problems.
-
Looks like it would be a nice set-up. If you used front block feed ports along with a remote pump it would be a breeze to make changes and not have to drain any fluids. Nice for a drag car where you don't need a pump pulley, or even a well built healthy street car. I always wondered why the manufacturers never did the multiple pin locations. It's easy and cheap.
Personally, I'd probably skip the iron gear since anybody using this set-up will probably be using the better steel sets. I'm really interested in the dyno results of the timing changes.
-
Jay,
Are you considering offering the modified Roll Master steel gear timings sets along with the the cover?
Thanks,
Bruce
-
Yes, Bruce, I plan to do that - Jay
-
Cool setup Jay! I find myself making little fixtures like that for lots of projects.
On the iron sprocket, you won't have any problems with strength if you pop in those new holes. I'm with Doug though in thinking you won't see much demand for it. People will want more bling with their shiny new timing covers, and those steel sprockets fit the bill!
-
On the iron sprocket, you won't have any problems with strength if you pop in those new holes.
Are you pretty sure about that Bill? Because I'd really rather use the Cloyes setup, since it seems to fit the nose of the cam and the cam pin better, and it does come with the good chain. And its cheaper. I'm going to have to charge a premium of about $100 to do the machining on these things, so keeping the cost of the chain down will help keep the overall cost down also for any of the FE guys out there who may be interested.
I'm a little concerned that the cast center of the Cloyes gear might give up with all those extra holes in it, when running something like a big roller cam with a lot of spring pressure...
-
Yeah it shouldn't be a problem Jay. Maybe we should cook up a 3D file and I can run some FEA studies to make sure.
Torque won't be a problem. If there's any out-of-plane bending I would want to take a closer look (such as somebody whacking the sprocket with a hammer to get it seated).
-
I wonder how the profiles of the different cams would affect things like a hydraulic roller vs a solid roller? Any plans for such comparisons? Would be interesting to see how each cam type reacts to the change. My money would be on the billet steel part, in my experience they seem to hold chain tension better over time and wear better. I would be definitely game for a cam sensor. What sort would it be, magnetic, hall effect or optional?
-
I've been trying to get the Cloyes folks to make these for an FE for a few years now.
We can try again at PRI
http://www.cloyes.com/quickadjust.html
-
The only problem I see with the degree holes would be adding an additional hole to balance the gear after you drill all those offset holes. Camshaft balance will be an issue if not careful. Looks great, by the way. Keep up the good work! Joe-JDC
-
I've been trying to get the Cloyes folks to make these for an FE for a few years now.
We can try again at PRI
http://www.cloyes.com/quickadjust.html
Wow, I didn't know Cloyes made anything like that. That would be cool if we could talk them into that, providing they weren't exorbitantly priced...
-
Years ago, MPG who still makes oil pan scrapers, had a similar cam advance/retard set-up for BBF's. It's no longer made but I do clearly remember seeing same in SuperFord magazine with a detailed article. Perhaps John V. would remember same but I don't think he's signed up here.
Their design IIRC actually used a std. cam gear but had an adjustable crank gear that was keyed to a plate bolted to the crank's snout. One could easily loosen three boltss that were external to the oil path and advance or retard up to 10 or so degrees. Wish I had that article to post here.
-
I would be definitely game for a cam sensor. What sort would it be, magnetic, hall effect or optional?
The cam sensors that I'm familiar with all use a threaded barrel body, 12mm or 1/2" in diameter. Cherry, Hamlin, and Honeywell are sources. Most of them are hall effect, and the Cherry and Hamlin sensors have a magnet built into the sensor, so that the target (what you are sensing) just has to be made of a magnetic material like iron or steel. I've been using the Cherry sensors on both cam and crank for my SOHC engines with good results, and using just a bolt head as the target.
http://cherryswitches.com/us/product/speed-sensor-gs1001-1002/
-
The only problem I see with the degree holes would be adding an additional hole to balance the gear after you drill all those offset holes. Camshaft balance will be an issue if not careful. Looks great, by the way. Keep up the good work! Joe-JDC
Joe, I can't imagine that the empty holes (or lack of a balancing hole) will be a balance issue. The amount of material is small, the distance from the center of rotation is small, and the cam is only spinning at half engine speed. Seems to me that the fuel pump eccentric would cause a much bigger balance issue than the holes in the cam gear. Also, for comparison here's a Cloyes hex-adjust set with what appears to be a much bigger imbalance:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-3108a/overview/make/ford
I'm figuring that if this isn't a problem, the modified gear won't be a problem either.
-
Those timing covers really look great Jay, good job on that from start to finish. I am curious how long it will take to change timing with your upper gear scenario. I have always found the same thing with cams and gears and pins... being different sizes, either too tight or a little sloppy on one or the other, or both. Pins are available in different diameters and length, but you usually have to sort through several to find a good fit.
I am wondering how easy it will be to remove the gear from the cam and/or pin, with the chain attached of course, and not being able to remove the crank gear or away from the block a little in order to do that (that is the point right, to not have to remove the damper and all, etc.) as a tight fitting chain will not flex much for removing the cam gear out far enough to re-index the pin (I think... but could be wrong). Just thinking out loud, having not tried this with what you are developing here.
I would think the two piece gear like Barry mentioned would be a much better way to go, without having to remove the cam bolt, and gear and chain etc... worry about the chain dropping and losing timing, crank tooth/gear location (might be hard to see with the cover on). Anyway all of the cam belt gears are like that, loosen 6 small bolts and move the two piece cam gear to change the timing, has to be much faster and trouble free.
I am just guessing on all this, and also hoping that you will find it easier than I am imagining. Sounds like you will find out this weekend perhaps? The "chicken coop" skunk works projects are sure cool (or is it the milk barn?). Have a great Thanksgiving weekend Jay!
Also, my buddy has several Penske short blocks from the 90's, and they all had "balanced" cam gears to run with the fuel pump eccentric, you could see where they had holes drilled all on one side to balance it with the eccentric attached. So there is something to that, when you get to a certain level (and maybe RPM) and for endurance.
-
How easy it is to change timing with the different pin locations is an open question, and you are correct that I hope to answer that this weekend. I think if I pull the alignment pin out first, I should be able to pull the cam gear straight off the cam, and then move it to whatever position I need. We will see...
On the balance thing, I'm just not convinced. What about all the spring pressure on the cam lobes? Wouldn't that trump any forces created by any out of balance condition on the timing gear? I just don't think its an issue...
-
Thread the pin so you can use a little dent puller on it. Leave everything else assembled. Remove center bolt, remove pin, use big wrench on crank to rotate engine a small amount until the desired pin hole lines up. Might be helpful to make larger moves in small steps using an undersized pin and "recentering" before moving to the next one.
BTW - I like my idea better too :)
-
Already got the threaded pin idea covered, but the problem is that when you go to the next hole, you also have to line a different cam gear tooth up with the crank gear tooth. So, you can't just rotate the top gear to the next pin hole; the top gear has got to come off and be moved. I think it will, once the pin is out. We will see...
-
I was able to make some more progress on this project over the holiday weekend, but an unannounced visit from the "outlaws" limited my time in the shop somewhat. Oh well, I made good progress after they left, but I had been hoping to have the engine on the dyno for some cam timing variation tests. That will have to wait until this coming weekend I guess.
First project this weekend was to get the Cloyes timing gear drilled for different cam timing locations. I also wanted to take advantage of the solid center of this gear to drill it for targets for the cam sensor that I had envisioned going into the removable front plate of the timing cover. This turned out to be more complicated than I had imagined. First, I wanted to make sure that the cam target passed by the sensor location in the cover plate 135 degrees before TDC on the #1 firing stroke. This way, the next crank sensor pulse would be the #1 cylinder pulse (the crank sensor on most EFI systems triggers well before top dead center in order to allow the EFI computer to add ignition advance to the spark pulse). This basically meant that since any change in cam timing required a re-position of the top timing gear, I would need to have seven different positions for the cam sensor, one for each position of the cam pin, in order to maintain the 135 degree lead angle.
After I figured all that out, the next complexity turned out to be the water pumps. Surprisingly enough, I found two stock water pumps with different shapes, and both of these were different than the shape of an Edelbrock pump. And of course with my water pump adapters and the CVR electric pump, there was a fourth combination. The difficulty was trying to figure out where to position the cam sensor so that no matter what water pump was used, it would still fit. The sensor sticks out somewhat from the timing cover plate, making fitment a little complex. Finally I figured out a good place for the sensor, and wrote the program to machine the upper Cloyes timing gear. Here's a picture of the Cloyes timing set after the top gear has been machined, and then another picture with the top gear installed on my 428CJ:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/Cloyescamtargetwchain.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/Cloyescamtarget.jpg)
The bolt with the nut behind it, shown screwed into the top gear in both photos, is the target for the cam sensor. I used a Cherry gs1001 cam sensor for this mockup, which has its own magnet and will turn on when the front of the sensor is close to any steel or iron object. Each hole for the cam sensor is marked with the corresponding timing mark for the pin that goes into the cam. So for example, if you are timing the cam so that it is 2 degrees advanced, the pin for the cam goes in the +2 marked hole, and the cam sensor target screws into the corresponding +2 hole in the outer ring of the gear. Once the removable cover is put in place on the timing cover, the sensor should point right at the cam target at 135 degrees before top dead center of #1 on the firing stroke. Here's a picture of the front of the engine with the timing cover plate installed, plus the Edelbrock water pump, the harmonic balancer, and the factory timing pointer:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/camsensorinst.jpg)
Just fits LOL! The Edelbrock pump is the tightest setup, so I think this setup will work with any mechanical water pump. I'm not sure about some of the other electric pumps out there, like for example a Meziere pump, but I'm hoping there will be enough room with those setups also.
One thing I discovered when messing around with this installation was that the cam installed in this engine (Comp 294S) had a pin hole in the cam that was much smaller than the hole in the Comp roller cam that I had originally measured. The pin hole in the roller cam measured right at 0.3125", exactly 5/16", but the cam installed in the 428CJ had a pin hole that measured 0.309"! This is the same kind of variation that I saw in the different timing gears that I had measured. After test fitting the timing cover and removing and replacing the top gear through the center opening a few times it had become clear that I needed a slip fit of the pin into the timing gear and the cam; a press fit wouldn't allow the top gear to come off. In order to get the top gear off you need to pull the pin first, and then pull the gear forward off the nose of the cam. The conclusion is that to make this setup functional for changing the cam timing, a slip fit of the cam pin is mandatory, and because of the variation in pin holes in the cam, the pin that came with the cam is the one that needs to be used.
After I got the Cloyes setup dialed in I put the original Rollmaster set back in, with the modified top gear, and started to get the front of the engine together. I had decided to try out the 351C front seal for this installation, and when I got to the installation of the crank sleeve, it became apparent that it would have to be machined to work with the front-installed 351C seal, because the sealing surface of the sleeve wasn't long enough. Just another delay, and that's where I'm stuck at the moment. I expect to have the crank sleeve machined and the engine all the way back together later this week. So, again barring no unforeseen problems (or visits from the outlaws LOL!), I should be able to test this setup on the dyno next weekend. Should be fun...
-
Is it your plan to have a larger cam bolt washer cover the slip-fit pin to prevent it from falling out?
Interested to see your results of especially retarding a cam for less low end/more top end and a what rpm level.
-
The picture is a little deceptive; that washer does actually overlap the pin just a little, preventing it from coming out. And I'm also pretty interested to see if the conventional wisdom with cam timing changes holds true on this engine...
-
The picture is a little deceptive; that washer does actually overlap the pin just a little, preventing it from coming out. And I'm also pretty interested to see if the conventional wisdom with cam timing changes holds true on this engine...
Me too on the cam timing. It was common practice (at least long ago) to retard a blown nitro engine's cam timing to limit tire spin w/o hurting the top end charge. Yet, I'm sure it's a lot different story in a much less hp naturally aspirated gasoline engine and could possibly even hurt top end hp. Kudo's to some dyno testing to see what is really happening.
-
My damper required that 7/16 be milled off the snout spacer to fit, will this be an issue? I ended up using an ATI damper that is a little wider than stock so the spacer had to be milled to align the damper properly and to have all the damper on the crank snout rather than hang off the end.
-
I don't think so, Jon. First off you can always use the standard FE seal in the timing cover, that will fit the stock spacer. And even if you wanted to use the 351C seal, I don't think that the stock spacer needs to be cut back anywhere near that far. Should be no issue.
-
That is just what the damper install instructions said to do, but I think as you said it should all clear OK. The cam sensor will not work with what I am doing as I need a hall effect signal so I will have to do a distributed style cam synch sensor there. I am definitely interested in the ability to adjust the cam timing, I will have to take the truck over to one of the local tuners to get it dialed in I guess as I will have no idea the effect each change will have in the overall picture with my injection and Moates Quarter horse tuner. It should be interesting to see what you come up with as a base line.
-
Do you think your cover could work with a modern VVT system?
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-1007-gms-variable-valve-timing-system-performance-test/
How do you produce the steel cover plate? Could customers send you brass plate or stainless steel to cut to fit beforehand or would we use the delivered cover as a template to cut our own material?
My PSE cover has a clear Lucite cover that doesn't seem to be feeling much stress, why do you feel thin aluminum wouldn't be a good option on your cover?
Noticed this link after the above, a different construction/design idea for a two part timing cover.
http://www.hotrod.com/news/hamburger-two-piece-ls-timing-cover/
-
Hmmmm, that's an interesting idea. I don't know why a VVT system wouldn't work with my cover, although a modified cover plate would probably be required. There'd have to be an adapter to bolt the VVT actuator on the FE cam, but that shouldn't be a big obstacle. Also the location of the factory FE water pump might be a problem; it might have to be spaced out, or a remote water pump used.
The cover plate is 1/8" steel plate, laser cut. I have a local steel outfit do it, so I wouldn't be able to cut one out of a different material. The reason I used this material is that I'm using an O-ring to seal the cover rather than a gasket. The gap between the two lower bolts holding the cover plate on is pretty large, and I needed the cover plate to be rigid so that it compresses the O-ring across that gap and seals properly; a less rigid material would bend up from the force of trying to compress the O-ring and lose seal. But, if you ditched the O-ring and just used RTV or a gasket to seal the cover plate, then any material could be used for the cover plate.
-
When will you start taking orders for the timing covers? Could use a couple to go with my intake adapter and another project. Have you thought much about selling price?
Thanks Jay!
-
David, the selling price will be $229.00, and I'm going to start taking order as soon as I have the castings in my hand. Should be around mid January - Jay
-
not to be picky jay but why dont you make that timing cover with the fuel pump mount boss omitted, just an idea. everybody uses electric pumps anymore. just food for thought.
-
Look on page 3 of this thread and you will see the cover without the fuel pump mount - Jay
-
A suggestion if it isn't too late---
The Dove front cover, which is a take-off of the iron FT unit, has the attachment bolt stand-offs all long enough to have their outer ends in the same plane as the water pump attachment points. This would both strengthen the casting and make the installation of an engine plate much easier. And you could use the same bolts all around the cover. Just a thought.
KS
-
If you are interested in purchasing one of the timing covers as shown in this thread, please see the ad in the vendor classifieds section. Thanks, Jay
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=2463.0
-
DOH.... hopefully they dont go up to much when i can afford one