FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: 2VNTG68S on March 15, 2014, 03:49:06 PM
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My engine builder just installed the roller valvetrain (Precision Oiling). The rods are ball/cup, but the rocker looks like its designed for a ball style rod. But when I look at the site it says it should be cup style. Cups definitely won't work on those rockers. What am I missing??
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I think I just figured it out - reading the fine print it does say they require ball/ball pushrods, but the ball/cup rods on the Precision Oiling site say they're for the roller rockers?? Anyway, looks like I got the wrong rods from Cam Research.
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The Precision Oil Pumps rockers do require ball-ball pushrods, but some other roller rockers (Comp Cams, Harlan Sharp) use the normal FE ball-cup style.
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Got the ball/ball pushrods from Cam Research, so we're good to go there. But that brought up another question. I was reading the online documentation for the rockers and saw this:
"Another added feature of our Roller Rockers is that we have made them with the Adjusters : Centered, Right offset .075", Left Offset .075", to help eliminate the pushrods from rubbing the Intake Manifold.. Depending on the Heads you have, a set with the correct combinations will be sent, the most common is usually 8 Rights and 8 Lefts."
I've got the Edelbrock heads. Do the Edelbrocks require the "8 rights / 8 lefts"? And how do I make sure I've got the right ones?
(attached pics - not sure if anyone can tell from the pics which ones I have)
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b544/cr749292/image_zps23a8f4df.jpg) (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/cr749292/media/image_zps23a8f4df.jpg.html)
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b544/cr749292/image_zps546f219d.jpg) (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/cr749292/media/image_zps546f219d.jpg.html)
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b544/cr749292/image_zps8e113d1a.jpg) (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/cr749292/media/image_zps8e113d1a.jpg.html)
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Sometimes offset adjusters are used to move the pushrod over and make more room for intake ports when the port is widened and breaks through into the pushrods slotted hole. It's never needed for stock width ports, at least that I've ever seen. They shouldn't really be needed on your combo unless some serious porting has been done. Looking at the pictures the adjusters all look centered, but it's a little hard to tell without measuring. Are the pushrods centered in their respective holes? As long as they don't rub the ports significantly, there shouldn't be an issue.
Just an observation, so don't take it wrong, but those rockers seem to have some questionable casting quality in places. Are those pits and casting flaws on the end by the adjuster in this picture?
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b544/cr749292/image_zps8e113d1a.jpg) (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/cr749292/media/image_zps8e113d1a.jpg.html)
Aluminum rockers really need to have quality castings or they are prone to breakage. The adjuster cups also seem to be of marginal depth. Not nearly as deep as all others I've seen. Both of those issues would cause me concern.
edit: I also don't like how there is barely enough room for the adjuster screws. Even though they are showing about 1-2 threads at the bottom, which is ideal, the adjuster screw doesn't even come to the top of the jam nut. If you have to adjust the screws down at all, then they will be well below the top of the adjuster nuts. In that top picture some of the adjuster screws are half way down the jam nuts threads already. Certainly not something I would be fond of, personally.
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I don't think those rockers are actually castings, I think they are aluminum extrusions. Not as good as billet, but better than a casting. I think the extrusions are purchased in lengths and the lengths are then cut to the width of the rocker and machined from there. Not sure about that, though...
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Those rockers resemble the HD rockers that Dove makes.
They are offset left and right also.
I think what you have will work . I know someone that ran the Dove HD rockers on CJ heads and they worked fine.
As long as everything lines up ok and no interference anywhere you should be fine.
What kind of cam and spring pressures are you running.
garyv
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I don't think those rockers are actually castings, I think they are aluminum extrusions. Not as good as billet, but better than a casting.
Jay, good point. If they are indeed from Doug at Precision Oil Pumps, then that must be some corrosion on them from sitting somewhere, rather than casting flaws. It's been a while since I've seen the Doves up close. I don't remember their cups being so shallow....unless it's something they did to retain as much material on the back side of the rocker shaft hole.
I thought the Comp Cams were also Dove HD units, so why these would have a cup set-up on the adjuster escapes me.
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A quick look at Dougs sight, Precision Oil Pumps, shows that they are not Dove rockers. They have bushings, where Dove does not, and the design is different. They are indeed billet according to Doug. The minor corrosion would not bother me as much, being billet and of a quality 7075-T6 aluminum.
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/fe-ford-roller-rocker-arms/
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If you have the offset adjusters, I think you usually install them so they are offset away from the rocker stands to help clear the pushrod holes. When I got a set of his rockers, I think he sent me 8 rights and 8 lefts for edelbrock heads. I gave those rockers to a friend so I can't check that.
As for the adjuster and locknuts, Doug at POP has things figured out pretty well so if the pushrod length is close, the top of the adjuster screw should be level with the top of the locknut when they are installed and adjusted. That's how it was when I was running those rockers.
And the adjuster cups are just shallow. That's how the ones I had were and that's the reason I didn't use them for very long. I take the rockers off pretty frequently and it was almost impossible for me to hold all 8 pushrods in place while tightening the rocker bolts/nuts down. At least one or two would fall out of place even with grease on the adjusters unlike the ball end adjusters and pushrod cups.
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Thanks for the replies guys. The rockers are actually from Scott at Cam Research. I thought he used the Precision rockers. Does anyone know for sure?
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If they are bushed, then I'd say for sure that they are POPs rockers and stands. His stands are always numbered, anodizing is blue, angle milled on top of rockers etc.
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Talked to Scott @ Cam Research. He said they should be Doves and that the shims are used to ensure alignment. So I think that should be good, unless I'm missing something?
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Spoke too soon. We reassembled the engine, but we have 2 rods that are too close for comfort and don't want to shim the rockers over any further. Is this where we require offsets? Or do we need to mod the heads? Seems a lot more difficult than it should be...
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b544/cr749292/IMG_20140401_155818_zpse62c2a4a.jpg) (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/cr749292/media/IMG_20140401_155818_zpse62c2a4a.jpg.html)
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b544/cr749292/IMG_20140401_155824_zps5f1a7b99.jpg) (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/cr749292/media/IMG_20140401_155824_zps5f1a7b99.jpg.html)
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Bump - any thoughts guys? We're kind of stuck at this point.
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You can grind clearance into the pushrod hole, move the rocker over with shims, or go to the offset rockers.
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As long as they aren't actually rubbing then there shouldn't be a problem. It would be easy enough to mark them with a white marker or something similar, run it through a couple cycles by hand and check for any witness marks. I would be more concerned with proper rocker geometry than anything. Just being close to the pushrod tube isn't an issue. BUT having said that, make double sure you have the intake in the correct position for the distributor to slide in easily. You don't want to button everything up with the rods that close then find out the intake needs to be shifted for the distributor holes to line up correctly.
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Seems a lot more difficult than it should be...
You said it "seems a lot more difficult than it should be". Well sure it's difficult. When you get to mixing aftermarket parts things become difficult. For me its half the fun of being an FE nut. It takes a bit more effort to get the rockers just right but the end result is worth the challenge.
Jay put it in a nutshell for you. I personally would mill the pushrod hole.
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You're not as stuck as you think.
Are they touching? Rubbing? When you roll the engine over with the pushrods in and the intake on, are there any witness marks?
If they're making witness marks, grind the pushrod tubes until they clear. Or....just shim the rocker over .015" or so and get it out of the way. Several ways of going about it.
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+1 to everything above. Couldn't see on your pics if the distributor is in but before you tighten intake down it should be, think of it like an alignment pin. Then check clearance. On some of my intakes the holes aren't holes anymore but just slots. Won't hurt anything.
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thanks guys, this is all very helpful!