FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: lalessi on March 02, 2014, 10:51:24 AM
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Hello. I am new to the forum but I have had casual experience building several FE's dating back to 1967. I have acquired a C4AE-6015-A short block that has 4 bolt main bosses cast-in but not machined. The engine is a .030 over 390 I believe, and it is rough due to weathering. I am planning on building a stroker with as much displacement as I can get away with. The engine is for my 1957 Ford Custom and will strickly be for the street focusing on "talking points" and sound. The car (3500 lbs) has a stock 390 in it now with a wide ratio toploader and 3.89 gears. I am looking at a Comp cam 282/.571 solid lifter cam and I am designing for a 6000 rpm redline. Has anybody added 4 bolt mains to an engine like this after the fact? Any comments?
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Here's some info:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thread/1281147705/who+sells+the+Pro+Gram+%28sp-%29+cross+bolt+main+caps+--
I sent a 428 block to Rob's shop in Colorado to install a set of the Pro Gram caps. He did a super job and it turned out great.
You can also just install cross bolt caps on #2 and #4 caps and leave #3 alone if you want to save some money.
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I have a C4 block under my workbench right now to which cross-bolts have been added. I'm the 3rd owner of the engine; it started life as a solid lifter 330HP 'PI' engine. I bought a set of 427 main caps at a swap meet.
It's a straightforward Bridgeport sort of machining effort. I got a set of spacers with the caps, including a couple of spares and it was still found necessary to make several more in order to be able to properly fit things together. The work was all done in Roush's Prototype Shop and they sized them to 4 decimal places. (I just dug a couple of the extras out of my desk as I was writing this.)
Depending on your intended end use, it might be worthwhile to go to the steel ProGram caps. But since they are intended to fit into a 'vanilla' block you'll then need to machine off the internal 'knobs', and have no need for spacers. But you'll still have the extra webbing.
My own block had very little core shift. I now have it cut .040 oversize. As a general rule of thumb, don't bore more than necessary. Cylinder wall strength is more important than the relatively small displacement increase you get from boring. You may find it worthwhile to talk to someone such as Barry at Survival regarding your plans.
Is your block completely drilled to oil the lifters?
KS
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Thanks for the info to date. The block is drilled for hydraulic lifters. I would probably use 427 main caps as well, no point in machining off the existing bosses in my mind. I took a 62 Mercury block in my first build and put stock new 428 pistons and a 428 crank when you could buy 'em from Ford. I had no issues at all back then but we didn't do sonic tests back in 67. Because the block is so rough I am thinking about going straight to the stock 428 bore and then doing the sonic thing before I do the 4 bolt main caps. The block passes the "drill bit" test.
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I would not bore before cross bolting or sonic. I would sonic first, no sense is wasting good money after bad.
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The cylinder walls are very pitted... I don't think I can sonic check it first. If it wont bore out to 4.13, I don't want to spend a lot on maching for the mains. I got this short block for a song for the cross bolted bosses.... Love the idea of a cross bolted "428". I am not racing or trying to maximize HP....cruising with a flair?!
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I would still Sonic the cylinders and then decide to punch the hole size and then go from there. As far as the cross bolting goes, if your intent isnt to push it hard then why even bother with the cross bolting?
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I will try to have the sonic test first on second thought. I will talk to them first. My machine shop doesn't do sonic testing though. I just want to say I have cross bolted mains.... I am sure I don't really need 'em. i really don't need a new engine when you get down to it, or so my wife likes to point out. I really enjoy getting the feedback, thanks again.
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Gotcha! 8)
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My 390 with a 428 crank and 410 pistons was bored .030 and revs to 6000 for a red line. The builder used new high quality fasteners and said they should hold up fine. The builder ask why I don't just keep it a 390 and build it to whatever HP and torque I wanted. But I'm like you, I wanted it o be a little different "just because". That's why I went with a 410 (actually 416).
I keep hearing that Barry (on this site) makes a GREAT stroker kit that'll take you up to 445ci. That to me sounds like a tried and true way to go. All the engineering and testing has already been proven.
Just a rookie's 2 cents.
Dave J
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Planning on a 4.25 stroker kit. This block is already 4.080 and at least one cylinder is pitted. I hope it will clean up period. Since I have had luck with an old block going out to 4.13, I figure this one may too! Thinking maybe the webbing and the cross-bolted bosses indicate a thicker wall. I want 455 cubic inches at least....one more than a 454 BBC!!! "No substitute for cubic inches", an old mantra. As a retired engineer I am back in my second childhood....
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I have exactly the same block exept mine is not
bored for hydraulic lifters and it wont take a 4.13
bore if you want the cyl. to bee .100 thick
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I think it is the luck of the draw, not that is completely applicable but I have a 406 cross bolt block that is 4.160 and it has well over .100 everywhere. I think the thinnest I saw was .116
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a 406 at 4.16 is 030+
a 390 at 4.13 is + 080
406 and 390 is different castings
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Cylinder wall thickness is a completely different conversation, and it really is luck of the draw. We have one 406 block that will go to 4.23 without being too thin, and I had another that was thin at 4.16 due to core shift. 390 blocks are the same way, some can go more than others, but personally I think its foolish to max them out if they don't need it.
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Sonic first.
Please.
I have seen 390s with a standard bore that would have been marginal at .040 over.
I have seen exactly ONE that was good for over .100 wall left at 4.130
...of course we've only checked a hundred or two - the ebay guys must just have kept all the good ones...
Any sort well equipped modern machine shop should really invest in the sonic tester - a good one is a bit over a grand, but even a cheap oriental unit will give you a number to work with.
The cross bolt installation is pretty normal Bridgeport work, but the block is heavy, awkward to mount and work with, and it takes a fair amount of time to do. You'll spend some pretty good money just on "clock labor".
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One of my questions would have been about minimum wall thickness at some point. I will report as this thing develops just as another "point on the curve". It may take a while though... I move slow. I have a retired machinist friend who owns a Bridgeport. Great feedback from everyone and I will continue to solicit advice along the way. I am looking at another machine shop, but the choices are limited locally.
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Just a report back the sonic report shows min thickness of .136 as the thinnest which allows me another .030, From what I have read the magic number is .100.
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For a mild street build .100" seems to be what most recommend. But with a stroker and the increased HP that comes with it I would want at least .125" on the thrust sides.
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Why not only increase the bore by .010" and keep the wall thickness at .131" It is half the overbore when figuring the amount of material left. Pistons are readily available in small increments of overbore, even though you may have to pay a little more for them. The added strength of the cylinder is worth the additional cost IMO. Joe-JDC.
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As mentioned earlier on, why the cross-bolts on essentially a low-po block and one that will see mainly easy street miles? I'd do the sonic check, add the stroker but save the big $ for a large bore, cross-bolted 427 block down the road. JMO
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As mentioned earlier on, why the cross-bolts on essentially a low-po block and one that will see mainly easy street miles? I'd do the sonic check, add the stroker but save the big $ for a large bore, cross-bolted 427 block down the road. JMO
Sounds like a bragging rights type of thing...............Which is I can get on board with, and a aftermarket 427 Block doesnt seem to be his plan on this particular car.
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Lalessi, if your block doesn't pan out, I've got a C4AE block that is standard bore in good shape.
If I build an FE for my Galaxie, it'll be with an aftermarket block.
Anyway, I'm in south Ga if ya wanna drop in and take a look at it.
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You need to sonic test for sure , and .100 to .125 wall thickness is where you need to be and cross bolting if you re building above 550 hp imo , or maybe a main girdle .. you can buy a garage block from Barry for $ 3500 , it will cost you bout $ 800 - $ 1000 to cross bolt , so maybe look at the long run picture of a 427 block with the stroker kit and get 480 plus inches , or a 428 block at 463 inches .. Bud
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oops $ 3600 for garage block from Barry my bad .. Bud
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oops $ 3600 for garage block from Barry my bad .. Bud
If you are referring to the Sideoiler Garage block, they are already cross bolted just as the original 427 blocks that they are based on.
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I think he was comparing the buy in on the side oiler garage block to the fact that he'd have an extra grand in the stock block that he wouldn't have to pay b/c the side oiler garage block was already cross bolted - what too many people seem to forget is that the aftermarket block (like a factory one) will still need another $1000 of machine work to make it worth using - real price $4600 and if you have to pay for shipping, almost 5k - for my build, I located a "local" block, and had it fully blueprinted - my total cost was half of what an aftermarket block would have cost me - for what I was going to do, it made the most sense - every build is different
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Yeah i was referring to the expense of cross bolting an original block for probably 1 use , at max bore or spending the money towards a new block with lots of life .. Bud
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Hey guys, turns out the block was too pitted in one cylinder and would have to be sleeved. Cylinder wall thickness was .137 or there abouts on the block based on some free spot checking. All of your input actually helped me out in a large way. In looking for a sonic test, I found a new machine shop closeby that builds racing engines and they have FE experience! I would have wound up having more money in the block than it was worth to me. Off to devise a good plan "B". I have a good solid running 390 engine in my car now and may start with that. As a cubic inch guy I may start a 428 block search!!!
Thanks for all the help.
Lynn
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If a block is nothing special, been bored already and heavy rusting has occurred it will cost more than it is worth to have it remachined to clean it up. Shops will not machine rusty parts so it will need to be blasted first. Get a stock bore block and start with one that is good from the get go. It will save you in the end, use the other block for a coffee table on your deck.
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Yep, start over with the stock bore as noted.