FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: bluef100fe on January 20, 2014, 04:26:11 PM
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Pro gram or 427 crossbolt caps? I was thinking of trying it on my 390 next time it's apart. Last time I had it apart I had some metal transfer between the caps and block.. I've seen sbc's and 385 series fords with this done... Never a Fe though... Would it be worth the hassle? Get some longer arp studs or bolts and mill the top of the cap flat and sandwich a 1x1 bar of 1045 or 1026 steel between the cap and fasteners... I wonder if that would help the block and cap integrity some? What you guys think? I have access to A machine shop so I could make a few sets and see what happens I guess... Guess I'm just wondering if I would be wasting my time or not? Anybody been there and done this already? Any results you can share? Thanks
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If I was going to go that route I think I'd go with one of those girdles that bolts into the pan rail in addition to the mains. It would drop your oil pan 1/4" or so, but you could probably tolerate that in the truck, and it would give more resistance to the cap moving around than those cap straps would.
Really the best way to fix the problem is crossbolting. Too bad its relatively expensive and the engine has to be torn down to do it...
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Referring to a girdle... Yes, a few of the guys have used them. Even with a crossbolt set up. There use to be a guy named Tim who had the whole set up for about $300~$350 for the kit. Came with ARP studs and all!
Here is Tim's ad! Great guy
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-FE-Deluxe-Main-Girdle-352-360-390-406-410-427-428-Cobra-Jet-cammer-shelby-/261374574338?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item3cdb237f02&vxp=mtr
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I'm curious about how much it actually costs to crossbolt a 390 block. I always hear everyone say "it's expensive" but every build has a different definition of what expensive is. I see the caps themselves can be had for just under $400, but how much machine time is involved? I might be right on the fence of needing them for my upcoming build.
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Without detail - some blocks are easier than others - you'll at least double the cost of the caps getting the installation done correctly. Could end up between $700 and a grand by the time you're all in and done.
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Alright. Thanks for the info Barry.
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We've installed a couple of those girdle deals - and they take a LOT more effort than you may expect to get them fitted correctly. The pan rails are not flat from Ford and are not in the same plane as the main cap bolt registers are. We had to mill both to get them flat, level and square to one another. Then we ended up making our own cap to girdle spacers since the dimensions were different. Once done I suspect they'll work pretty well - but you really don't save much compared to the proven cross bolting option.
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Hmmm, that's interesting Barry. I was under the impression that they really didn't have to be fitted; that you would put a gasket between the block and the girdle, and then another between the girdle and the pan. I figured you'd have to pull the main caps and machine the tops to the same height, but didn't think it was critical to also have a perfect fit to the pan rail. My assumption was that the pan bolts held the girdle in place sufficiently well without doing that.
By the way, I may have a couple of cast aluminum parts for you at the end of the week...
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We've installed a couple of those girdle deals - and they take a LOT more effort than you may expect to get them fitted correctly. The pan rails are not flat from Ford and are not in the same plane as the main cap bolt registers are. We had to mill both to get them flat, level and square to one another. Then we ended up making our own cap to girdle spacers since the dimensions were different. Once done I suspect they'll work pretty well - but you really don't save much compared to the proven cross bolting option.
Some info on this stuff with pictures from the past..
http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thread/1319990352/FE+Girdle+anyone+use+one+%2C+new+project+%2C+has+me+thinking
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I guess I won't bother with the straps then... Does anybody besides pro gram make cross bolt caps? I don't like the idea of cutting the main webbing to install their caps? HAs anybody done the cross bolting deal and really pushed the stock 390 block? How much does the cross bolt caps raise the hp/tq ceiling? Does anybody know? Seems there are a lot of parts available to make good power with a 390 block nowadays... Just wondering where the next weak link is? Thanks
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Well... Instead of being limited to 500~550Hp with out them... Now you can go 550+ Hp. Maybe 700~ 750Hp... It could be more I guess, depending on the block used. Like a D3 or D4 block (or other beefed up block).
Here is one other who make caps~
http://dovemanufacturing.com/ford_fe_main_caps.html
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Wes,
I don't see any prices on those dove caps... I think I seen Brent advertising the pro gram caps for $350... I would assume the dove parts are similar in price... I think the stock 390 blocks will live at 500 or so for a few seasons of bracket racing... I'm wondering if the cross bolted 390's will live as long or longer at the 700+ level... I like to think I would only race a complete combo for maybe five seasons and then retire that whole assembly to a street beater or backup engine if it didn't have any signs of failing and build a completely new combo with new parts... Thanks
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The original 390 PI block from my Galaxie is cast with the knobs for crossbolting but not machined
But i doubth there is any need for crossbolting a regular street Engine around 400 hp
I have Another block with the same casting number but the Engine is still asembled
intersting to see if it also has the knobs
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Well Cody,
I guess it would depend on a lot of things. Is it getting sprayed, Turbo or N/A at the 700Hp+ level ? That might depend on how long it lives at that kind of level, whats been done to it and how your using it. Maybe some of the guys will chime in and help out.
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My plan is to make between 500-600 n/a and still have some room to spray if the need arises :)
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So are the 428 c j blocks in the same range of strength as the 390 blocks , bout the 550 hp range without being cross bolted ? .. Bud
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For what it's worth, my general rule of thumb is that an FE 2 bolt block with wall thicknesses of at least .125" are probably good to 600 HP in most applications. Where they would have a problem is in a stick shift vehicle at the track, where you are dumping the clutch. They probably won't last forever in that application. I also figure that the factory crossbolted blocks are good to 850 HP with the same caveat about track use. And I don't know where the limit is on the aftermarket blocks, but it is way past 1000 HP. Just my opinion, with no facts to really back it up. If I was going to build a 550 HP FE and spray it, I think I'd get it crossbolted...
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So are the 428 c j blocks in the same range of strength as the 390 blocks , bout the 550 hp range without being cross bolted ? .. Bud
Comparing my C6ME 428 and 105 D4TE 390 4.050 bore block, I would say the 105 block is the better block.
Especially for a high power build. jmo
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The D4 blocks are a little more beefed up then the c6 block. It seams to be thicker between the mains and the cam. I would go with the D4 JMHO...
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It gives me something to think about then for sure , if it s 750 to a 1000 to cross bolt an older 390 or 28 block i would have to consider putting that towards a garage block or pond block then and just get cubes , hp and some peace of mind .. Bud
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I have a few of the D3/D4te blocks to work with... Last time my 390 in the truck was dynoed at 450ish hp and tq.... I found another 4 tenths in the qtr mile since then so I think I'm between 450 and 500 hp already.... I want to build a 445ish stroker and I'd hope it would be around 550 hp just by adding the extra 50 cubes and having more compression and cam.. Werby's program says I'm close... Guess I will have to consider cross bolt main cap options... I don't want to wreck a new rotating assembly from block failure.... Thanks again guys
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I agree with you my friend , that s where i am with a 463 build and don t want to wreck the block or the rotating assembly .. Bud
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For what its worth, when I started racing my Fairmont in 1988, I was using the same 390 that I had previously used in my 64 Falcon.It used a .030 over D4/105 pickup truck block, stock 390 crank, main studs, a set of new in the box LeMans capscrew connecting rods with SPS bolts. At that time, the Fairmont weighed 3200 lbs with driver, and had a C6 transmission with a 4500 stall convertor (no trans brake at that time)
Footbraking the car at the track, it ran a best of 11.42@119mph, but after a while I decided to try some nitrous on it.After starting out at 125HP jets, I switched to 175 MP jetting. The car picked up a bunch, best of 10.28ET at 132 MPH, but at Bremerton Raceway in 1989, approaching the finish line, there was a load bang, strong vibration, and I was sliding around in my own oil and water at 130 NPH. After I tore the engine down, I was suprised to find the main webbing between the cam and crank had torn out, and most was laying in the oil pan, and the crankshaft had broken into 5 pieces. Although several were badly bent, none of the LeMans rods broke. There were some photos of the carnage of the FE Forum years ago, some may recall seeing them. With such destruction, it was impossible to determine if the block or crank let go first, causing a chain reaction. I have never ran any "power adder" stuff ever since. Also, I would have to think that a longer than stock stroke would tend to load the block more than the stock crank I was using.
Subsequent 428 blocks have shown signs of main cap fretting, and one split the main webbing between the cam and crank at #2 & 4bulkheads, using a stock 428 crank.
I have been running the 427 block/428 crank in the Fairmont the past few years, but if I decide to build another 428 block for the car, I will have it crossbolted. Personally, since the girdles are located by the main cap and oil pan bolts, I can`t really see how a girdle would be of much help. Its not as if the oil pan bolt holes are a snug, precise fit.
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There is, or was, an outfit around St. Louis, Missouri that was doing an even more elaborate sort of multi-bolt main cap installation than ProGram. A quick search just now didn't turn anything up but if you have interest in that direction it might be worthwhile.
It took more block prep than the PG approach.
KS
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There is, or was, an outfit around St. Louis, Missouri that was doing an even more elaborate sort of multi-bolt main cap installation than ProGram. A quick search just now didn't turn anything up but if you have interest in that direction it might be worthwhile.
It took more block prep than the PG approach.
KS
I think the outfit was Bessel.
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Well I'm probably putting the carriage in front of the horse so to speak but I ordered some steel cold rolled bar stock today with the intent of machining my own caps... I made a test piece out of aluminum yesterday and it seems to fit the block registers well... My design will differ from the others I've seen as I don't plan on having to cut into the main webbing like the program caps do... Which was the main reason I didn't want to use them... Well and they seem a little pricey although I don't know if program provides fasteners with their caps or not.. The design I came up with would seem to be a cross breed between the pro gram caps and the factory 427 caps... I haven't decided how many I'm going to make yet as I don't know how much spindle time there is going to be in each set... Finally I can try to use my education for something FE related for once :)
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We've modified Pro-Gram caps to use OE style spacers and clear the webs (except for the spot needed for the bolts of course).
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My cap design leaves the top of the cap real close to even with the pan rail. The cross bolt bosses on the cap ended up being 1 by 1 square and will require a spacer to bridge the gap between the pan rail and the cap... Slab milling the side of the pan rail obviously is required but hopefully it will have very little if any affect on the main webbing's integrity. I planned to locate the cross bolts closer to the pan rail than the original 427 caps. Now I wish I had a mill big enough to fixture a block in so I could install them myself... Other problem I have is I don't trust any of my local shops to properly install them... Seems I will have to make a road trip somewhere.