FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: c9zx on September 13, 2011, 11:47:58 AM
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I'm planning a build using a Genesis block. This is the first time I've built an FE since 1977 so I need to get current again. Any quirks, peculiarities, or problems I should be aware of? Thanks, Chuck
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There are a few unique things to watch for on the Genesis block, unfortunately I can't remember what they are. But Barry R of Survival Motorsports has posted on the web in the past what to watch during for during a build and he would be a good person to talk to. He has also provided some good comparison's of the differences in all the aftermarket blocks.
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Thanks for the information. Chuck
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If you have not bought your block yet get ahold of Barry R at Survival. Get the block and pistons from him, then get his shop to do the machine work. He obviously has someone who has done a number of Genesis blocks and would have much experience.
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One of the things you have to watch out for on the Genesis block is the alignment of the oil hole that goes to the head. As I understand it you have to slot the hole a little at the deck to get it to line up with the hole in the head gasket. Also the Genesis blocks use a special set of cam bearings, not the factory style cam bearings. Finally, try to get one with the steel billet caps, rather than the cast iron caps. Apparently the cast caps don't hold up all that well under high horsepower.
Just passing along what I have been told about these blocks; I have no direct experience with them. I prefer Pond and Shelby blocks. Have you considered a Pond block? It's a much better piece, IMO...
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Thanks for all the input. The block has not been purchased yet and it looks like I need to do some more homework. The main cap issue is disturbing even though this is only a 525 HP build. Chuck
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Besides what Jay mentioned here are a few more......
1. #1 cam bearing needs to be clearanced (notched) to allow distributor to drop in.
2. Main cap thrust bearing chaumfer needs to be enlarged a bit for proper bearing seating. Not sure if this has been corrected or not but as is the bearing can fold slightly allowing the crankshaft to bind when installed.
3. You might need to widen the oil slots on #2 and 4 cam journals to .050. Some have run into the problem of the oil passage to lining up correctly with the cam thus some oil starvation.
4. I have heard some of the older cam bearings were a problem and they can spin in their bores cutting off oil supply. The fix is to use Robert Ponds cam bearings.
I can take a few pics of these areas if there's any questions. My block has cast iron caps and the build should be somewhere in the 500 hp range when finished. It's a older casting from 06.
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Glenn, Thanks for the information. I'm glad I asked the question. There seems to be much for me to learn before the build. Chuck
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The oil feed to teh heads needs to be either slotted over - or simply drill a matching hole in the head gasket since the heads are already slotted. Takes 2 minutes tops. But you do need to be aware of it.
I have had ZERO problems with cam bearings on these blocks in iron - not sure where that issue came from. I use a flashlight to ensure alignemnt of the feed hole in the block with the one in the bearing. The Pond bearings are simply wider, and come from the exact same source manufacturer so press is identical.
I HAVE had a couple of aluminum blocks - one Genesis and one Pond - where one of the cam bearings walked out from position - didn't spin, just wobbled out. Easy fix, but problematic. Turns out that OEMs use a very tight press on production alloy blocks. Red Loctite is recommended at the very least.
In six or seven years and who knows how many builds I have had exactly one cracked ductile iron main cap. It was in a +/-700HP drag car and came in for freshening after a few hundred passes with no symptoms at all. Cap came out in two pieces and we were stunned - the bearing even looked OK. Split through the threaded "pull hole" in the center of the cap. An apparent stress fracture at the threads. Since then the pull holes have been made shallower and/or eliminated. Probably a non-issue for any new build.
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Barry that's good to know on the cam bearings thanks. I heard that years ago from someone on the forum (can't remember exactly who) that there were a few cases where the cam bearings spun. Might have been related to something else possibly. But sounded like there was some concern. My block came from Keith in Jan 07 and heard this like in 08-09 sometime? No exact timeframe was given and I wasn't sure which cam bearings it came with so I added it to my checklist. One less thing to change is fine by me. ;D Hope you have been well. Glenn.
PS good to see you here too.
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The caps do NOT have a hole in them for a pull bolt.
Mine is a newer one.
Those caps look pretty stout to me. ;D
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With Genesis, get the steel caps. Ford used nodular iron on the caps of their performance FEs and later pickup truck FEs, and only used gray iron on non-performance and earlier FEs.
Genesis crossbolted cast caps were cast of gray iron, not nodular. I repeatedly complained to Genesis about this, and got assurances it would be dealt with, but the same huge palleted box of cap castings just kept getting used for production years later. It's possible they've used up that batch and recast a new batch which might be nodular. I wouldn't bank on it, since they didn't seem interested in the nodular issue. You can't tell the Genesis caps are brittle until they crack, since they have the same stiffness and weight as nodular caps. Be careful. They crack just as readily when you torque them into place in the shop as when you are revving a supercharged engine.
Just my opinion,
Shoe.
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Are the steel caps available separately from Genesis?
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I'd put my Geny up against any stock Ford block.
I'd be more worried about a rod letting go than the block caps cracking.
You have Todd thinking steel or no go.
That's just not the case.
I believe the Geny is good to 900 HP no problem. Stock caps and all.
I regularly took my 428 stock block close to 600 HP on the bottle and never seen any sign
of bottom end problems.
Looking at my Geny, It is massive compared to my 428.
Now the rings in the 428. That's another story. LOL
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I have been outta touch on the FE for a few years now, focused instead on my fantasy engine design project.
For a more recent 2009 description of what the new nodular Genesis caps look like reference:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/message/1238173424
Click through the link to see new photos and expert info (not from me).
Genesis has now apparently switched to nodular cast caps. When I prodded them early on Tim told me they did switch when they actually didn't, but they now probably have. I do have a couple stories of early Genesis caps cracking, but none that caused serious damage, only warranty grief.
I like Genesis iron blocks, and I sorta prefer nodular caps over steel caps, but I'm just an iron addict. I've attached a photo of the early Genesis caps.
Shoe.
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For what it's worth, the reason that Robert Pond is manufacturing blocks is that he had trouble with the caps letting go on the Genesis blocks he tried. He'd run them on the dyno to test them with one of his 600 HP stock eliminator builds, and when he tore them down invariably he would find at least one broken main cap. He tried to get Genesis to change to a steel cap, but as Dave said they wouldn't do it. So, Robert decided to make his own blocks, rather than work with the Genesis blocks. Robert told me this directly several years ago.
I think this was a problem early on with the Genesis stuff, and not more recently. I haven't heard of this issue with anybody's Genesis blocks for quite some time, since they switched to the nodular caps. But buyer beware of any Genesis block that is an early one with the normal cast caps...
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Robert is one of the folk I'd discussed this issue with. He wasn't the only one.
Shoe.
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I remember this talk of the early cap issue.
I have possibly one of the lastest blocks. I just got it this year from Barry.
I know that it is the best block I have in my inventory and I don't have the
money to buy a Pond.
When I get it up and running I plan to take it to close to 800 HP on the bottle.
If I blow it up. C'est la vie.
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Yikes. I have what I think is a 1st gen block. Bought in late 06 and delivered in early 07 from Keith Craft. I have not heard about the cracking manicap issue but just about everything else far as I know. The caps sure look like the ones Dave posted in his picture. When I was block shopping I wanted a iron Pond block but only the Genesis was available in iron at the time. Couldn't swing the aluminum. My build is pretty mild somewhere in the 500-550hp range. What would you guys suggest I do? Look into the newer caps? ??? It's still a bare block and I'm collecting parts for everything as well. More time than money at the moment. Hmmm.
BTW Dave nice to see you here.
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Any chance we can see a picture of the caps you have.
I will be in town tomorrow for Remembrance Day Service and will take a few pics
of the caps on my block.
Now I'm curious.
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I'll un wrap it and take some tomorrow or Sat and post them. I lost all the pics i had on my old computer.
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Hopefully a pic of mine.
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The other early Genesis iron I recall cracked a cap while torquing it into place at a customer's shop. I seem to recall there were more than two purchases involving cracked caps, but it's been a while and I don't remember right now. Once the Genesis blocks are built, they have a reputation for reliability unless professionally punished.
Keep in mind that a Robert Pond dyno run is as brutal a testing regime as any racing FE engine goes through. His runs last a long time. His dyno runs often deform factory crossbolted nodular caps to the point the legs bend and they "fret" in the block registers. That he can bust gray iron Genesis caps is not much different than the fact that he destroys Ford factory crossbolted nodular caps with regularity (he can accurately predict how long factory crossbolted caps will last in his tests), reference (one link includes photos):
http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/message/1103140420
http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/message/1103386459
I've also attached a photo of an early Genesis iron block (late prototype era) with gray iron caps to this post (see below), as a visual reference. In a post above, I attached a photo of the crate of early gray iron caps. Note that Genesis used a very high grade "diesel engine" gray iron ingot in their blocks and caps, with a nickel addition. Prototype blocks got 2% nickel but were a pain to machine and build, so later blocks got the same diesel iron ingots with a bit less nickel to make them builder-friendly. I expect the Genesis gray iron caps retained the 2% alloy, since only one protptype-era batch of the gray iron caps was cast, at least that I'm aware of. Again, modern Genesis iron caps are apparently nodular, and look different.
Shoe.
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Please excuse the feet in this one. ;D
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I just got home from work and checked my block - apparently it is a later production block with the bigger nodular iron main caps. Phew!
(http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp89/toddkeen/Genesisblock.jpg)
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Dave thank you for the pictures and great info! Really interesting to know. Clearly shows I have the early type of caps. For my needs I hope it will be fine but it's good to be aware of the possible failure issues. Sounds like Robert really puts them through the paces. Keith did a fine job on machine work and block detail. Nicely cut relief in the deck for the oil hole match. And #1 cam bearing notch for distributor gear. He normally gives them a good checkover. But good to know everything that can happen. One thing on the newer caps boy they sure are beefy!! Clearly a better product. I wish they did a better thrust bearing maincap chaumfer on these blocks though. I see that hasn't changed on the new style caps either. Or maybe they decided to leave that detail to the builders? Either way a nicely done product overall.
Todd great picture thanks! Nice block.
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Keep in mind that Barry mentioned (in a post above) that a Genesis nodular cap cracked at the slidehammer hole in the middle of the cap (gray iron caps didn't have the hole drilled, best I know). I'd not heard of that happening before, and it deserves elaboration. I am also unaware of the location of any of the cracks in the Genesis gray iron caps, I've only studied a factory Ford crossbolted cap failure, and it occured along the length of the main bolt and seem to originate at the block register surface due to side-loading of the cap by the crank and then propogated up to the bolt head surface and did not damage the factory 427 engine. The Genesis gray cap failures may take entirely different forms than factory crossbolted cap failures. It is good to know that, so far, Genesis cap failures have not resulted in additional engine damage.
Shoe.
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My block was drop shipped to me through Barry this year.
It will of course need a full mock-up and inspection and most likely a bit of touch up.
I would say I'm more than happy with the size of my caps.
Can't say the same about my wallet though. LOL
Whether they are Nodular or Gray cast I can't say.
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q128/ScotiaFE/C6004-1.jpg)
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Something else to remember on the oil slots on the deck is the TP heads I'm using (stock iron 71 service castings) are not slotted like most other FE heads are. I have seen some tunnelport heads with the oil slot and some without. Just the oil feed hole itself. So that's why I had the block slotted. I have also seen both types of oil feeds on the Medium riser heads as well. I had thought it was DIF cast heads vs later CF castings but think I have seen both early and later heads both ways. Not positive on that.
Dave yes there's a good list of things to be aware of for sure. As these blocks get used and age it's a pretty good test. And they do seem to correct things in time. Which is good. I like them too it's a very nice block.
Todd or Howie could one of you please post a pic of inside the screw in freeze plug area inside the block? I have never seen the siamese cyl walls inside. And my block came with the plugs installed and sealed. No joy here. Thanks.
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No problems, as my block came without the screw in plugs. Hope this pic is clear enough.
(http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp89/toddkeen/Genesisblockwaterjacket.jpg)
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Thanks Todd!
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I cannot recall seeing any caps with the numbers cast on them like that. I do know that all the ones I see here have gone through a couple iterations.
Earliest were like the ones you show with round cross bolt extension legs going out to the pan rail. I might have a few loose ones like that sitting at the shop. Ones from at least the last four years have had a squared off cross bolt extension. I had two of the earliest blocks and still regularly use one of them in Engine Masters. They both had cast caps, without cast numbers and without the pull hole and neither broke at the 700HP+ level after a pretty fair number of pulls/runs. I have seen the later steel and cast caps with an arched pan facing underside and a flat square looking one. No idea why the difference.