FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => Non-FE Discussion Forum => Topic started by: rcodecj on November 26, 2013, 04:16:52 PM
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I am looking at the 140-11071-D Wilwood front disc brake kit for a 67-69 mustang.
The brake line kit they list is #220-12168 which has 18" brake lines.
I contacted Wilwood with concerns that the brake lines are too long. My current brake lines are around 14" long and they are plenty long a 12" might work, and I am aware they have to be long enough for full suspension travel. They told me "The caliper in this kit sits higher and in a different position from the OEM, which require a longer line."
In looking at the pics I don't see that it sits higher and if it sits in the rear instead of the front like my 67 then it could be even shorter.
Is anyone running Wilwood front disc brakes with a 67-69 mustang that could tell me what the brake lines look like.
Does it really need an 18" brake line?
Here's a link to the disc brake kit and the lines:
Thank you.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/wil-140-11071-d/overview/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/wil-220-12168/overview/
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If the lines you get are too long, you can shorten them easily. They are just teflon lined braided steel lines; nothing special. Buy a #3 end for a teflon line, cut your brake line off where you want it and assemble the new end on the line. I've done this several times without any issues.
I would also say that too long is probably better than too short, and that I used the 18" length line on my 69 Shelby clone. You can position the frame end anywhere if you are making up your own hard lines, and being able to do that usually eliminates any issues with rubbing or binding.
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I'm going by memory here, I don't have any of my reference material handy, but I believe on a '67 Mustang ( and Cougar ) Ford routed the brake line differently depending on if it was a drum brake or disc brake car. Wilwood may have made the lines long to fit either possibility. In other words your car may require a short line, but someone else might need more length.
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Thanks guys.
I ordered the disc brake kit today and I will order the lines when I see what it looks like since I am in no hurry.
Jay, thanks for the idea of how to shorten the lines.
thatdarncat, thanks also, I do think there are some differences between disc and drum, I have had both type cars but it has been so long I don't remember.
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Rcode, can I ask you a couple questions and a favor? I am considering this kit and have a friend that is as well. We were curious about the weight savings versus OEM. You didn't mention that you had disc or drum to start with, but I would assume disc. Could you please weigh the parts that come off and then weigh the new kit to see the actual difference. They claim "up to 35 pounds less", but don't really mention if disc or drum, etc. and I think that is a just a general statement and probably varies a lot with different cars, not Ford specific.
Also I have heard and thought I even read it somewhere that this actual kit ends up moving the track width wider by 1/2 or 3/4 of an inch at the wheels. I don't know if that is actual either, or for each side or total or what... I would also ask if you could measure that somehow, and confirm if true and by how much. I have discs and my buddy has drums, but my front wheels already have an outboard stance and I wouldn't want them pushed out further.
One last comment is on the front brake lines you questioned about length. I see that Wilwood has "universal brake line kits", that are available in 14, 16, and 18" lengths. You can also just buy the braided brake lines at Speedway or even on EBAY that are available straight or with 90* on one end, in 12, 15, and 18" lengths. Then just buy the fitting adapter to the Ford line, the fitting on the caliper is just a 1/8 pipe to 3AN I believe. Probably cheaper just to do your own, or just get their kit if you don't mind paying for some extra adapters you won't use.
I am guessing you have your kit by now so hopefully you will have a better idea on some of this. Let me know what/when you can!
Thanks in advance!
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My car is a 67 mustang coupe that originally had a 289. It had the small drum brakes, not the big block 2" drum brakes when I bought the car.
I first put the Stainless Steel Brake Corp kit on it, the A121 kit.
I now have the Wilwood 140-11071-D kit, which by the way you can get with polished calipers instead of the black or red calipers for only around $45 more.
The polish job on the calipers is amazing.
Now for the weight:
A121 SSBC front disc brake kit minus the master cylinder was 70 lbs.
The original 1967 mustang 289 stock drum brakes minus the master cylinder was 67 lbs.
The Wilwood 140-11071-D front disc brake kit with no master cylinder or brake lines is 37 lbs.
All weighed on the same digital bath scale so take it for what it's worth. ::)
As far as the wider track width I have the drums off already but I expect it to be +.090 because that is what Wilwood says:
http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/BrakeKitsProdFront.aspx?itemno=140-11071-D
I will know if it is very far off because my front tires are close now to the outside of the fenderwell.
If it is off I will let you know.
If I remember correctly, in the past the Wilwood kit was 3/4" wider track width. That is why I went with SSBC originally.
I have brake lines coming tomorrow so I'll let you know how that turns out.
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Surprisingly I measured that the SSBC track width is around .050 wider than the Wilwood.
If I remember right original disc brakes are wider than drum brakes.
Now that being said Wilwood has exact measurements on their site and I would measure what you have so you are not surprised or disappointed because my measurements could be somewhat off.
No guarantees! ;D
Also check their measurements to make sure your wheels will fit and clear.
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Wow! Thanks for all the great info. It looks like they have re-designed the hub, and got rid of almost all of that offset I mentioned. That is a good thing... I can live with .090 or thereabouts.
Did your kit come with the thin steel wheel shims that go between the hub and wheel? They are .090 and I wonder if they are talking about that as far as offset, or that would be in addition, if needed (probably). These are for if your wheel does not contact the hub face completely, the spacer is bigger OD to contact the wheel... and/or used if you have steel wheels to protect the aluminum hub). I saw they were in some parts pictures, and not in others.
Keep us posted on your progress, also, some pictures would be great!
Thanks again.
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It did come with a wheel spacer, but it is only .200" thick.
part#300-11961
Something else I like about the Wilwood is that the wheel studs are screw in. It will be easy to screw in 3" wheel studs to use with my Prostar rims.
I almost forgot, while installing the caliper mounting bracket, one of the nuts stripped on the bolt, so I am waiting for Wilwood to send me a bolt and nut.
They are coated, almost looks like galvanized and it is very gritty. Odd, but this crap always happens to me.
EDIT TO CHANGE SPACER THICKNESS TO .200 THICK.
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For what it's worth the Wilwood kit on the front of my 69 Mach 1 saved 40 pounds over the stock disc brakes. Seems like that is pretty much in line with what rcodecj measured. Mine also came with spacers, but they were wider, .060" I think.
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Jay, did you notice better stopping ability after changing from stock to Wilwood because that is what I am hoping for also.
Wilwood tech told me that I would but of course they are a bit biased.
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Ok, I measured the spacer and it is .200, not .020 :-[
Sorry about that, I'll edit the post below.
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Jay, did you notice better stopping ability after changing from stock to Wilwood because that is what I am hoping for also.
Wilwood tech told me that I would but of course they are a bit biased.
I did get better stopping, but my original brake setup was not in great shape so I'm not sure it is a fair comparison. One thing about both the stock brakes and the Wilwoods is that neither one does a great job holding the car in the burnout box at the track; with both sets of brakes the car wants to go to one side or the other during the burnout in most cases. I'm almost wondering if my line lock is leaking...
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Jay, did you notice better stopping ability after changing from stock to Wilwood because that is what I am hoping for also.
Wilwood tech told me that I would but of course they are a bit biased.
I did get better stopping, but my original brake setup was not in great shape so I'm not sure it is a fair comparison. One thing about both the stock brakes and the Wilwoods is that neither one does a great job holding the car in the burnout box at the track; with both sets of brakes the car wants to go to one side or the other during the burnout in most cases. I'm almost wondering if my line lock is leaking...
I've had that problem a few times but it was because they were really poor sometimes at keeping the burnout area wet sometimes at the track, so I blame that on the rear traction rather than the front brake, at least in my case.
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Jay,
I have been thinking of getting a brake pressure gauge.
In your case I think it would help to determine whether or not your line lock is leaking down.
I like this one:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ssb-a1704/overview/
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Some added info, may be a bit more accurate.
The packing list from Wilwood lists the brake kit weight as 42.10 lbs. (obviously they have a more accurate scale than I used) :o
Minus all the boxes, that's not much weight for the kit.
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For what it's worth the Wilwood kit on the front of my 69 Mach 1 saved 40 pounds over the stock disc brakes.
That sure is a significant savings in weight, especially on the front of a drag car! I wouldn't have guessed it to be so much less. That alone would make up the difference in an aftermarket iron block over a stock one. Hmmm, now I'm going to be considering them on my next build. Dang, sometimes I hate this place >:(
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For what it's worth the Wilwood kit on the front of my 69 Mach 1 saved 40 pounds over the stock disc brakes. Seems like that is pretty much in line with what rcodecj measured. Mine also came with spacers, but they were wider, .060" I think.
Hmmm thats the weightsaving my wife tell me i need to do to my self ::) ::) ::)
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I managed to get everything installed. The 18" brake lines fit just right, they come with 90 degree fittings. I will bleed them tomorrow and see how they work.
I don't see any major difference in track width. My 14" spare does not fit now but it might if I space if out a lot since I have 3" wheel studs.
I have 3.5 by 15 Prostar wheels and they fit with plenty of caliper clearance, in fact I believe I could have bought the 140-12947D kit with the 12.19 rotors and 6 piston calipers,
these are 11 inch rotors and 4 pistons. If I don't think this brakes good enough I may get that kit, but I'm going to add rear discs first.
I have manual brakes, is there a point where larger rotors and 6 piston calipers would be too hard to press the brake pedal?
Jay, are you running the 11" rotor with 4 pistons?
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Yes, I think the rotors are 11.2" in diameter if I recall correctly, and the calipers are 4 piston units. I wanted to go bigger, but I also wanted to keep the Magnum 500 wheels, and they won't fit the bigger brakes.
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rcodecj i Think those brakes overpower the tires you
can mount on 3,5 inch Wheels so absolutly no reason
to go with bigger brakes the tires is the limitation
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Jay,
I have been thinking of getting a brake pressure gauge.
In your case I think it would help to determine whether or not your line lock is leaking down.
I like this one:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ssb-a1704/overview/
I have that kit, actually I have two so I can fit the front and back at the same time.
It's a great service tool when adjusting the proportioning valve and for seeing actual line pressure.
Worth the coin when building custom brake setups.
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According to Wilwood the bedding is done in 3 steps, light, med to firm, and hard, applying the brakes for 3-5 seconds, and then allow them to fully release for a period about twice as long.
I have done this before so no problem, but as I applied the brakes for the light part there was some groaning as the car just came to a stop. I tried to avoid stopping completely for this part to not make this noise. I checked the rotors before I pulled out onto the road and the side I heard the groan from looked a bit more lightly scuffed. I didn't like that. So on to the med to firm part and this time I slowed and I could hear the pads and rotors bedding in smoothly with no groaning and I felt a bit better. Going through the 3rd (hard) step was from 65 to 25 but hitting the pedal pretty hard.
At first I thought darn this thing does not stop any better but Wilwood said do 8 to 10 times so that was what I did. By the 8th stop the car was stopping better than ever and I even had to modulate the pedal to not lock the front wheels up. On to 9 and 10 and it was stopping even better. I then pulled over and slowed down to a stop fearing the groaning sound but it was fine. When I got home I looked at the rotors and they looked great. The groaning never happened at all with the SSBC brakes I believe because Wilwood uses a more aggressive pad.
Somewhat because of the Calvert drag shocks I have some nose dive even with big block front springs so I am going to put my Edelbrock IAS shocks on it and see what that does. I am also going to look into the pressure to the rear because I have my proportioning valve wide open and I can't even begin to lock up the rear, of course I do have skinnies on front and 275/60/15's on 9' rim on the rear. If the drums are all ok and getting proper pressure it may help to go to a more aggressive pad on the rear drums. I could put on larger rear drums but that would be more weight. I think I would just go for the rear disc kit instead though.
When I took the pictures it was right after pulling out of the garage and I noticed the front was a bit higher because it had not settled completely down yet from jacking it up but after coming back from the drive I'm sure I have the same or really close track width as I had before.
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rugh row... :o It looks nice but... I think you have the calipers&brackets switched side for side. The caliper usually goes on toward the back of the car, not the front side. Maybe that is why it "groaned"?
I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Maybe check into that! My buddy does brakes and he said that a lot of the new cars do put them in front so maybe it will work either way. My factory discs are to the back.
I sure appreciate all the info though as I will be doing this as well. I may go with the 12.19" rotors though, just seems like it would take the heat away better than the 11". The calipers are the same, in fact, the "Dust booted" Dynapro caliper is available and they have better wheel clearance, versus the dynalight caliper, with the same size rotor.
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rugh row... :o It looks nice but... I think you have the calipers&brackets switched side for side. The caliper usually goes on toward the back of the car, not the front side. Maybe that is why it "groaned"?
I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Maybe check into that! My buddy does brakes and he said that a lot of the new cars do put them in front so maybe it will work either way. My factory discs are to the back.
I sure appreciate all the info though as I will be doing this as well. I may go with the 12.19" rotors though, just seems like it would take the heat away better than the 11". The calipers are the same, in fact, the "Dust booted" Dynapro caliper is available and they have better wheel clearance, versus the dynalight caliper, with the same size rotor.
They go in the front as per the instructions and here's a few pictures:
http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/BrakeKitAdvisor.aspx?year=1967&make=Ford&model=Mustang&option=Drum+Brake+Front+Spindle
http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/BrakeKitsProdFront.aspx?itemno=140-11071-D&year=1967&make=Ford&model=Mustang&option=Drum+Brake+Front+Spindle
Hey, thanks for looking out for me though!
No groaning now and brakes are working great! The beginning groaning was very minimal. I called a buddy who installed the same kit and he said his did the same in the very
beginning.
I am betting you have the newer floating caliper with one piston, my 69 has that and the caliper is in the back.
I even checked SSBC for 67, shows it in the front:
http://ssbrakes.com/attachment/63291-Instruction%20Manual
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That is weird... I do have the single piston caliper. But I looked through some you-tube videos, including one done by Wilwood, and they install the caliper on the back...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPhNmaLKrMY
I saw another video, and they installed the caliper on the front on a 65, so maybe it just doesn't matter?
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That is weird... I do have the single piston caliper. But I looked through some you-tube videos, including one done by Wilwood, and they install the caliper on the back...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPhNmaLKrMY
I saw another video, and they installed the caliper on the front on a 65, so maybe it just doesn't matter?
Ah, see that video is a 69 mustang, they are in the rear on that year.
On the 65 mustang they would be in the front as my 67 is.
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I looked at the illustration for a 67 and a 69 and they both show left side with caliper on the front! Strange... I guess I'll worry about it when the time comes, LOL. Maybe I'll drill some new holes and mount it straight up on the top!!!~ ;D
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In that video they show tapping the seal in with a hammer, the Wilwood instructions say to press the seal in and for good reason. It would be difficult to tap in because it wants to pop up on one side even if you have it in quite even. Even though I have tapped in seals without pressing before, I tried tapping the Wilwood seal in with a piece of aluminum and it jumped all over, not saying it can't be done but much easier to press it in like the Wilwood instructions say. I pressed mine in easily.
2nd is where he is torqueing the wheel studs to 77 lbs in the hub. Try actually doing that by holding the hub with your hands and you had better have superman grip.
I torqued mine by placing the hub in a wheel with a tire on it. I saw no damage whatsoever on the stud threads as you are not jerking on it, just applying smooth and steady torque.
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Here is my 69 disc brake caliper in the stock location:
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I looked at the illustration for a 67 and a 69 and they both show left side with caliper on the front! Strange... I guess I'll worry about it when the time comes, LOL. Maybe I'll drill some new holes and mount it straight up on the top!!!~ ;D
I just checked that is strange also it is showing a 67 mustang picture for both years.
I also checked what kit for a 69 mustang and it is the same kit as mine (caliper mounted on the front).
It also lists the same brake line kit.
The 67 drum brake hard lines point the opposite way as the 69 disc brake lines so I'm not sure how that works.
I guess it could.
I'm not sure what kit they are putting on that 69 in the video.
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Wow, was just out rechecking brake line alignment and boy is that kind of a best compromise thing with the AN lines and fittings.
Because the fitting in the caliper is pipe thread and 90 degree you've got to stop it to line up correctly with the car suspension up, down, and wheels turned both ways.
It is close to the spindle one way and the lower ball joint stud the other way, and of course changes with the front end lifted way up. I have the 1" upper control arm drop so that helps with the camber not changing as much but still. I stopped turning the pipe thread part into the caliper a bit short to make sure I did not have to back it out after tightening.
If I had it to do over again I think I would have bought a straight pipe thread to -3 AN fitting adapter and bought a brake line with one end having a 90 degree on it. (And I still might)
Here's why, the perfect angle is sometimes not quite as tight as you would like and one more turn to get it right can be too tight.
I'll be the first to admit I am picky. Some of the factory brake line hoses have a 4 inch long or so fitting on the brake line coming out of the caliper and I can see why the factory did it now.
This was not an issue on the SSBC kit.
OK I guess I'm saying just be careful!
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I changed out the Calvert Racing front drag shocks for Edelbrock IAS and as expected it really helped the nose dive on hard braking.
I was strapped for time so I did not get a chance to play with the rear brake proportioning valve any more yet.
It is kind of nice to see what one change at a time does though.