FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: garyv on October 19, 2013, 09:37:13 AM
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Doing some major upgrades to my 66 Fairlane and one of the things I want to do is go to an aluminum radiator and electric fan or fans.
Have done some research on here and after looking at everything Summit Racing and others have to offer I have to admit it gets confusing.
There are lot of radiators out there. Crites restoration has one that looks nice. There are fans galore with all kinds of CFM claims.
Car is going to have a 427 Tunnel Port, mostly street driven, so I am going to need to be able to keep it cool. I was thinking a ? Summit aluminum radiator and a set of their high output 12" puller fans that are supposed to move 2600 cfm.
Appreciate any thoughts or recommendations.
Thanks
garyv
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On the radiators, I have used the cheap Summit brand with good results on cars up to 700 HP. They have two rows of 1" cores, and that seems to work pretty well. When I tried that setup in my Mach 1 with the supercharged engine, though, it was not sufficient, and I ended up with a custom radiator from C&R Radiator with 1.25" cores. Most recently, with the higher HP naturally aspirated engine in my Mach 1, I picked a Griffin radiator, also with two 1.25" cores. I only have limited street miles on that one, but so far no problems.
On the electric fans, cfm ratings from most of the manufacturers mean nothing. You have to specify a pressure drop along with a cfm number in order to get a meaningful result. This is just like head flow numbers; if you have 300 cfm from a flow bench it is typically done with a 28" pressure drop, which means there is higher pressure above the port than below it. If you increased the pressure drop, your cfm numbers will increase, rendering them useless from a comparison standpoint. In the electric fan world, pressure is higher on the outlet side of the fan, because the fan is sitting up against the radiator. Most of the electric fan manufacturers just give a cfm rating with no pressure drop, and as soon as you put the radiator next to the fan the cfm will drop dramatically. Also, some fan designs will drop much less than others. So, with the "free air" cfm rating given by most manufacturers, you really can't get a comparative cooling number.
Spal is the only company I know that offers cfm vs. pressure drop ratings. And Spal fans are far away the best on the market, IMO. You can buy from them direct at spalusa.com.
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I will add that you really need to spend more money on an alum fan setup than you would think, especially with a shock tower car.
The air not only has to enter, but needs to find a way out, and with a big FE tower-to-tower, it can be tough.
For true street cars, I have all but given up on electrics in a shock tower Ford. To me, on the street, the gain is minimal compared to the ease in stable tuning due to underhood temp management and drvability with an engine driven fan. Racing, certainly a different story, and the ability to shut down an alternator at WOT should gain some power and still be able to remain cool
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I've done a full custom install in a 67 Fairlane and used the Summit kit.
One issue with the Northern rad from Summit is the lower pipe is at a angle pointing up and to the pump. :P
Must be some kind of chev thing.?
There was cutting and welding on my custom job, but I never was one for shying away from cutting. ::)
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q128/ScotiaFE/PICT0001.jpg) (http://s135.photobucket.com/user/ScotiaFE/media/PICT0001.jpg.html)
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The upward pointing lower hose barb is identical to my cheapie universal fit Griffin aluminum radiator on a '70 Mach 1, all be it with a 351W. Before I bought it, a few on the old Forum said it would be fine....and it is.
I don't think it's a Chevy deal though. Methinks it a circle track function as I've never seen any era of any GM radiator with such an unusual twist/bend.
Think I paid under $200 (like $190 w/o shipping) from Summit although that was some years ago. Had to slightly bend my OEM Ford top radiator hold down bracket to get a good fit. Still, the direct fit Griffin was IIRC about $300 at the time and the one I got works just as well.
I'm also leery of electric fans. Me, I'd run a thermal clutch fan ala' the OEM setup and not worry about a toasted engine.
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Virtually all current cars use electric fans. Some years ago, I went from the water pump mounted fan that was in my '64 F-100/390 PI combo to an aftermarket electric fan. I bought a style that has a sort-of 'shroud' connecting the ends of the fan blades. It's worked flawlessly ever since but I DO have a relatively open engine compartment.
I'm told that late model electric fans from such as a Taurus can be easily 'bone-yarded' and pressed into service. You'll find that they come as a unit in which the fan assembly is housed in a shroud that also serves as the mount. They not only work good, they look good too!
KS
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I have read where guys are using the Taurus and Lincoln fans with good results..
Everything now has electric fans and they have a lot less room under the hood than my Fairlane.
I would think with the right radiator and fan it should work.
I don't like the thoughts of running a clutch fan at over 6000 RPM
garyv
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You have my personal guarantee that a good aluminum radiator and electric fan setup will give you no trouble on the street. Been doing it for years...
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Jay the radiator I have now is just around 22 " wide and doesn't look like I can go with a 25" one.
The opening in the core support really doesn't allow for anything larger.
Summit has their street strip radiators then they have a 24 inch wide triple pass.
What you think?
Thanks
gary
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I looked at those triple pass radiators when I was shopping for my Griffin; don't see why they wouldn't work. I've never used a dual pass or triple pass radiator, though, so I can't offer any real world experience.
On my Mach 1 I trimmed the opening in the core support, and also the front frame rails, to fit the 31" wide (26" core) radiators that I've used in that car. Not a big deal to do that, but I can understand if you don't want to cut anything...
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You have my personal guarantee that a good aluminum radiator and electric fan setup will give you no trouble on the street. Been doing it for years...
Virtually all current cars use electric fans. Some years ago, I went from the water pump mounted fan that was in my '64 F-100/390 PI combo to an aftermarket electric fan. I bought a style that has a sort-of 'shroud' connecting the ends of the fan blades. It's worked flawlessly ever since but I DO have a relatively open engine compartment.
I'm told that late model electric fans from such as a Taurus can be easily 'bone-yarded' and pressed into service. You'll find that they come as a unit in which the fan assembly is housed in a shroud that also serves as the mount. They not only work good, they look good too!
KS
I am the last guy to argue with either of you, but there is a big "it depends" there. As a guy who "gets" to move every 3-6 years, I have learned there is a HUGE difference in cooling a car in one climate versus another. I couldn't even fathom requiring a shroud growing up in Western Mass, cooling issues were non existent, but in Las Vegas, I learned quickly that it takes a TON of airflow to cool a motor when the ambient air is over 120 and a the surface temps of the road can be over 150 degrees. It's all about volume at that point
I'll also add that my 489, with the air conditioning at idle, would need a heck of a setup to keep adequate air flowing with the A/C, PS, and all the brackets in the way, not to mention the condenser itself. In my case, I actually decided to put two dedicated electric fans on the a/c, then space it forward so the engine driven fan would suck around it. WAY overkill here in Nebraska, but it was a nice design for Las Vegas.
Not to say that we couldnt run electric fans in the desert, but it certainly takes more thinking, and even then, on the hottest of days, my buddy's Rat Chevy stayed home, despite more radiator and a nice pair of Spals
Additionally, I do agree new cars use electric fans as a rule, but note that the engine driven fans ar still used, now even modified for full electric lockup regularly on trucks. I'd be hard pressed to compare a 500 hp FE with a tight engine compartment to a 250 hp car with a big open area in front of the engine for air to flow, but I could see comparing it to a V10 Ford or Dodge. Neither comparisons are identical, but I guess my point is, you need real good stuff if you want it to do what a factory build will do with a 500+ hp FE
Now I will say I agree completely with Jay that if you have a good fan and radiator setup. It'll run cool, but it needs to be good, and needs to be well thought out if you are anywhere south of Kansas.
Good big fans like the Lincoln and many other large fans will hit the water pump if you run a stock style belt setup, the dual fan setups for the most part don't push a lot of air for a common sized radiator. However ultimately if you have enough airflow, the car doesn't care what kind of fan it is, as long as the airflow is there
I have long wanted to move my radiator forward, run a big electric fan, and even thought of sending the air up through the hood like a GT40 :) However, with the big alum radiator and an aftermarket fixed fan, it runs cool, and I am not afraid to spin it to 6500, so in my normal fashion, I wont take it apart LOL
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Good point about the locale Ross, and also about the accessories like A/C and power steering. I've had to run my cars down south, during Drag Week, and never had a problem, but there weren't too many traffic jams we had to deal with, and I don't have AC. The desert and ambient temperature over 110 with a fully optioned car might be a whole different ballgame.
Just can't believe a big pair of Spals wouldn't be up to the airflow requirements, though. The pair I have on my Mach 1 just move a TON of air...
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I don't mind opening up the core support some if needed to use a larger radiator.
That sounds like a good suggestion. I'll have to do some measuring.
I'm not running AC so I don't have to worry about that added heat. I'm not in the desert either but
here in WV it gets plenty hot in the summer when the humidity climbs up there.
I have ram air type hood so hopefully that will help get some of the heat out also.
I really appreciate all the input.
gary
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Hey Gary v, I had heating issues with my 67 fairlane overheating as well. Driving or racing it would hit 220. After a dozen combinations what we did was a summit triple pass radiator,cut lower hose fitting and straightened it for hose fittment, run Milodon 160 high flow stat. Then made custom shroud from heavy gauge aluminum with aluminum ring to mount ford Taurus electric fan, used two position switch since fans have low and high. Also used 130 amp wind star alternator. Really helps with fan speed over the 60 amp original. Temp now 160 to 185 Max.also did this same setup on 351 c that ran 220+ and now runs 170 on low fan speed. I can try to post pics if someone is interested.
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It is my observation that when electric fan set-ups DON'T work satisfactorily, regardless of the brand of fan, the problem can frequently be traced to a poor shroud arrangement.
I went through no end of grief with my (ahem, cough, cough) stroker small-block El Camino. In the interest of cool factor and weight saving replaced a perfectly serviceable copper-brass rad and engine fan set-up with a Griffin alum rad and electric fan installed with the plastic ties that run between the rad fins. The result was miserable, engine temp consistently 20-25F higher with the fan as a puller, and 30F+ or worse in pusher configuration. Finally had an alum shroud fabbed up that covers the complete surface area of the rad and sets the fan 2-in back. Presto, temp dropped back to steady 180F even on the hottest days.
I would humbly submit that the pic Howie posted above of his Fairlane cooling system illustrates how things should be done, fully sealed with the fan set back from the face of the rad.
I'm sticking with the stock rad and engine-driven clutch fan on the Cyclone, which will work just fine with a mildly warmed-over 390 carrying 2 extra quarts of oil in a deep Milodon pan (and will never likely see beyond 5000 rpm).
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Aren't "El Camino" and "cool factor" contradictory terms?
Sorry, I couldn't resist... ;D ;D
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Fastback 427 if you get a chance post a few pics of your set up.
Sounds like the trick here is to have a good radiator but more importantly the right fan and shroud set up.
I know some of these wiring harness kits such as the one from Painless have a preset on and off temp.
is the 185 on 175 off the right one to use or get one you can program yourself.
Howie your set up looks really nice. Thanks for posting the pics.
Jay if you see this let me know what Spal fan you are using.
Once again thanks for all the info.
garyv
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Aren't "El Camino" and "cool factor" contradictory terms?
Sorry, I couldn't resist... ;D ;D
In my defence Jay, I wanted a Ranchero but decent ones were virtual unobtanium where I lived at that time. :'(
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I have just finished going through this whole process I used a AFCO dual pass which fitted between the rails I had to trim the radiator support purchased a Taurus fan as there was nothing available here in Australia that could match its airflow .We made a custom schroud ,the fan is controlled by the ECU on at 190 . With our high temperatures here at the moment it copes well while cruising on highway temps sit at 180 only in traffic does the fan come on and will cycle .
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In my 67 Mustang I use a stock 24" 3 row copper/brass radiator with dual Contour fans with the stock Contour fan shroud. The Contour fans/shroud setup is a perfect fit on the stock radiator and clears the water pump, generator(130A) and power steering pump nicely. Even though I live in a colder climate(Norway) than many of you guys there were absolutely no heating problems this summer even though we had alot of 90F days . I use a Painless F5 dual fan controller to turn the fans on when necessary. One fan comes on at 195F and the other at 210F. On the highway, the 527cid cruises at 185F all day.
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I'm running the cheap Summit cross flow in front of my 433ci fe with AC. I run Contour fans with a fixed 205 on 190 off temp switch . I wired it with a relay and fuse for each fan. With the AC on,105 outside it runs 200 at idle,stop and go. Moving down the road it runs 185.
It does have a few wiedness' though. I made a little spoiler about 3" long mounted to the lower radiator support to block the air from pulling forward at a stop. With the fans running the air would get pulled forward under the radiator then back though the radiator, that little mod was good for a solid 10* at idle.
The other wierdity just happened this month. Outside temp in the low 60's but I had about a 30mph tail wind. Sitting in STOPPED traffic (IH 35w in Ft Worth,the locals know...) the water temp went to 210. I pulled over to make sure all was well,fans running,etc... everything fine. Even before I opened the hood I could feel the heat coming from under the hood.