FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: mygasser on September 24, 2026, 07:00:24 AM
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i've been looking on the pro maxx website at heads for my planned 390 build. it'll be a mostly street driven deal in a light weight 58 rambler gasser, exploder rear with 3.73 gears and a 5 speed manual trans. i have a summit hydraulic roller cam, hyperutectic 360 flat top pistons, a jay brown intake adapter and a weiand 351c tunnel ram with 2 390 holley carbs.
so my question is do i opt for the maxx 170 head https://promaxxperformance.com/product/maxx-170-ford-fe/ or is it worth spending the extra 1k ish for the shocker 200 head https://promaxxperformance.com/product/shocker-200-ford-fe/ ?
it is possible i'll build a 2nd 390/445 so the parts listed (except pistons and 390 holleys) would be swapped onto that.
any thoughts?
neil.
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Your budget is your budget, but if I were going to spend a couple grand on a set of heads, I'd save up my lunch money and get the better performing head.
FWIW though, Keith Craft hasn't been in business for several years now. Not sure who is doing any port work for ProMaxx but their advertisement is not accurate.
If you're willing to pay $3100 for a cylinder head, I'd look incredibly hard and long at a $3048 pair of Trick Flow heads. They are not Chinese copies of Edelbrock heads and come with parts that are well-respected in the industry, such as CHE valve guides, PAC valve springs, etc.
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I agree with Brent. Your combo probably doesn’t call for the bigger pro Maxx head anyway. But getting Trickflow or the BBMs would benifit you in the long run.
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I agree too, and no matter what, 360-390 does not need a 200 cc port. Stay fast and smooth
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thanks all and kind of what i expected to be honest so i'll stick to plan b with the 170cc maxx heads. ''plan b'' you say, yes i asked here about the speedmaster heads but was directed to the pro maxx for not a lot more money which is fine with me.
thanks again, neil.
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Promaxx has better hardware than Speedmaster, I think it was Lance that took over Kieth Kraft when Kieth retired that made the CNC program for Promaxx, I'm pretty sure it was but anyway the 170's are decent budget head
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Promaxx has better hardware than Speedmaster, I think it was Lance that took over Kieth Kraft when Kieth retired that made the CNC program for Promaxx, I'm pretty sure it was but anyway the 170's are decent budget head
Lance did take over the business, but the doors were padlocked years ago and not much got out of there. I'd have to guess someone shared/sold the CnC programming, or Promaxx has some legal protection to owning the porting and it's being done elsewhere, but where, who knows.
I have not seen a Promaxx head to comment on quality
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Those heads have been available for years with the CNC port too. Promaxx does machining in house so I imagine they bought the program, I have had two sets of SB Chevy castings, the local machine shop liked them and said night and day better than Speedmaster, Ive never had Speedmaster but the Promaxx were really nice and looked nice too, Winegart does there SBC Shocker program
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what is an actual set of edelbrocks? 400ish more?
I can understand cast off shore stuff to an extent and 400 bucks is 400 bucks, but if they truly are copies of edelbrock heads (and if brent and ross say they are i believe it) ive got a bit of a problem with that and would spend the extra.
It's wrong when a company spends time and money to develop a quality product and then it is copied by someone and they get under cut on pricing.
And of course now ive been down a rabbit hole on Craft Racing Engines... and wow...
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They are NOT Edelbrock copies.
It's easy to tell, just look at the picture of the combustion chamber.
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That head is the "Stevens" head from quite a while back, which was a direct copy of Edelbrock. Things progress and things change (the Edelbrock doesn't flow 290 cfm either), but the premise is still the same.
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Agree
I don't see a lot of difference either. The pictures aren't perfect, the bottom edge looks different, but I think it's the picture. Imagine the Edel on the bottom rolled slightly toward you so you can't see the intake face. Even if I wasn't in the original Stevens discussion, it looks pretty copied to me.
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They are Steven Sun heads, not Stevenson heads, his castings are top shelf now, LS blocks, BB Chevy blocks, SB chevy blocks are all top notch, Chad Spiers does his CNC program on the Chevy stuff and Chad is one of the top head porters in this country
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No idea who Stevenson is, but "Carefully Engineered Engine Parts Manufacturing Co., Ltd." Is the guy Brent and I have been talking about, Steven Sun
Some true statements:
1 - way back he was asking all of us for recommended improvements, looks like he may have listened to whoever helped
2 - I won't buy Chinese AFR Enforcers either, and they are gone through by AFR with AFR components. In fact, turned down a very nice person with a set of chinese heads wanting to do a 427 Twin Turbo street 427. The project, car and person were all cool too. Hopefully a repeat customer never asks me to use them.
3 - There is no international world police, but if someone in Idaho copied that Edelbrock head, they'd be sued silly, it's a shame an ocean in between allows it.
4 - Intellectual property and Chinese, one google search.
I 100% will leave it at that and won't fight anyone, I know Jay does not like political issues, but if they showed up with Jays castings and intake without paying for it, this forum would freak out.
I do understand there are budget limits and never want anyone to be forced into poverty for enjoyment, no finger pointing
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This always drives me crazy!!!
You guys fight Chinese stuff, left and right, when it suits you BUT, embrace Chinese made Molnar rods when you build engines.
Molnar copied the long standing Carrillo rod design and had them made in China, yet you make excuses for using them and NOT using US made Carrillo or Oliver.
China is China!
BTW, who's combustion chamber did Edelbrock copy? The chamber in the Pro Maxx head looks much like the C3AE -C in the Ford Denver heads.
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BTW, these are the heads I have and were referring to.
They copied Ford. Should Ford sue Edelbrock?
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There is no Carrillo rod that looks like a Molnar, sorry. None of them have the skinny beams that Molnar has, nor do any of them have the lightweight that a Molnar rod has. If Molnar copied anyone, they copied K1, but that's because Tom Molnar worked for K1...
When there are options, I will always push US made stuff first. Sometimes there are no options. If it weren't for Scat, 99.999% of the 445 and 462 guys out there wouldn't have 445's or 462's. If everyone had to buy $1600-$2000 Carrillo/Oliver rods to make 445's/462's/482's, then practically no one would be making a 445/462/482. I can name many more examples.
Frank, you are the first one to point a finger at us when we use Molnar rods, but you're also the first one to promote BBM. Doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Talk out of one side of your face please.
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One more thing..... I'm not trying to put Molnar out of business. They seem to make a good product, as Pro Maxx does. But, since you buy a lot of their rods, you could put pressure on them to have their forgings made in the good old USA when your ordering them.
They will continue making them in China, as long as you continue buying them!
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Maybe you should push Doug Park and Blair to have BBM stuff made in the US?
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Brent, it guy's like you that keep China in business and then put them down when it suits you!!!
BBM is NOT made in China.
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Brent, it guy's like you that keep China in business and then put them down when it suits you!!!
BBM is NOT made in China.
You better look and see who else is using Molnar rods, Scat cranks, etc., before you lump me in with "guys like you". Never have seen you tell Blair that it's guys like him keeping China in business. Blair also promotes and uses a lot of Molnar rods, Scat cranks, etc. No, BBM is not made in China, but you like to come across like you're so US-centric, then push parts made in Korea.
As I mentioned up above, when there are US-based parts that are available, I try to give them the nod. Edelbrock, TFS, Pond, FE Power, etc. Unfortunately, there are no US-based manufacturer that is making FE cranks and rods that most guys can afford. If guys had to pay $5000 for a Bryant crank and $1600 for Oliver rods when they wanted to build a 445, a lot of FE engine building would fall by the way side.
Ross is too calm and patient when it comes to guys like you, but I have no trouble holding you accountable for the garbage you type on the forums.
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The truth shall set you free!
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The truth shall set you free!
Whatever that means LOL
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Brent is right, I may be too calm and patient, but honestly it's based on my experiences and not just engines. No need to let it make you crazy Frank, crazy drives mistakes. You do not have to agree, and I do not expect an admission from either side, ever, that the other is right or wrong.
Good point on Molnar and SCAT in terms of flow of money. I can't really argue if the parts are a complete copy, but like Brent, my Carillos in my Cobra did not at all look like a SCAT or Molnar or K1. Additionally, SCAT parts in general do not seem to be a copy of any stateside piece that I know of, so YES, money going overseas is sure not where I like to be, but those parts are less of an intellectual property issue. In fact, maybe my AFR was a bad example in hindsight, especially if AFR comissioned them to do it. My issue has been has always been with the blatant copy of heads and intakes re-released into our market.
Unfortunately, there are not as many good opportunities between rods and cranks as there are heads, so when money is flowing AND it's a copy as well for heads and intakes, I get a bit more reluctant. Shame on me for adjusting the rules to my argument, but I am not dying on the sword for anti-Chinese as much as saying, when you have an option, avoid the Chinese copy.
I do not know a crank or rod supplier than an average Joe can budget for right now. I'd like to see a SCAT priced US only capscrew I-beam for 6.488 rods, same with all cast and forged cranks, with light and affordable options for the strokers. I'll continue to chase options for those, but at this point no leads.
I meant it, at some point a good, repeat customer will show up at my shop with a set, I don't have an answer, but hope they don't.
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Ross, you should run for political office :)
So it's about intellectual property? The intellectual property is the manufacturers design. Minor changes don't negate that. All head designs can be said are minor changes to Ford's design. Many company's have produced Ford based product as designed by Ford or with modifications. From the flat heads on. That is what "Hot Rodding" is and was, all about.
Carrillo came out first, with the H beam rod, before either you or Brent were born, the very minor changes that others made to it, doesn't change that. I'm sure Carrillo didn't invent the H beam but, they are responsible for it's use today and deserve their place in racing history.
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Frank,
No politician, but certainly not the normal guy you'd run into on the street.
In manufacturing, “intellectual property” refers to all proprietary technical information, inventions, processes, designs, and know‑how used in the production of goods, protected by legal rights such as patents, trademarks, copyrights, and trade secrets.
I am not arguing about Carillo and won't let you pull me in a rabbit hole with your example, which if even true, is a completely different scenario. Stevens did a direct copy of a US made head, so I won't buy it. The things I do buy are not direct copies. You buy it if you want it, but I really don't think you want those heads either, I think you like to fight me and Brent.
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I think you like to fight me and Brent.
The truth shall set you free!
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I am just noting the hypocrisy of putting down Chinese made goods, made in China and finished in the US, no different than the Molnar finished Chinese rods on a Carrillo design and the Pro Maxx heads of the same type thing.
Of course you don't sell Pro Maxx :)
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I am just noting the hypocrisy of putting down Chinese made goods, made in China and finished in the US, no different than the Molnar finished Chinese rods on a Carrillo design and the Pro Maxx heads of the same type thing.
Of course you don't sell Pro Maxx :)
I could. Many years ago, they sent me a set of FE heads and a set of SBF heads to check out. I looked at them, sent them back, and politely declined.
You just don't get it, Frank, because you don't want to get it.
Ross' scruple is that he doesn't want to support businesses who stole the exact design of another company, i.e. Pro Maxx, SpeedMaster, ProComp, etc. I'm with him.
My scruple is that I'd rather use US made products *when given the choice*. Sometimes there is no choice. In the situation of cylinder heads, there are lots of other choices.
Oh, by the way, you obviously have no idea what a Carrillo rod looks like. I bet I could post pictures of a Carrillo, Callies, Scat, and Dyers rod next to a Molnar rod, and the only rod that would stand out as a completely different design would be the Molnar.
Next.
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I am just noting the hypocrisy of putting down Chinese made goods, made in China and finished in the US, no different than the Molnar finished Chinese rods on a Carrillo design and the Pro Maxx heads of the same type thing.
Of course you don't sell Pro Maxx :)
Frank, if that applies to me, that is your interpretation without reading the posts carefully and it's dead wrong.
- As Brent said, my primary concern is buying copied parts of US made stuff in production. It has been over 20 years in production for Edelbrock RPM stuff, so likely not a crime, but shady.
- I prefer to buy US when I can, by a longshot. If it doesn't meet the price requirement set by the customer's budget, then I have to permanently or temporarily find a solution. I will say that I will discount or provide a credit to do the right thing if things are close.
- If you are trying to infer that it's a profit thing because I do or do not sell Promaxx, it's silly, Promaxx has a decent markup and readily available to me. Happy to drop ship you a set.
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*when given the choice*
You are the one that has that choice. You guild your customers to what you want to build for them. Tell them you would put Chinese stuff in your engines!
Oh, by the way, you obviously have no idea what a Carrillo rod looks like. I bet I could post pictures of a Carrillo, Callies, Scat, and Dyers rod next to a Molnar rod, and the only rod that would stand out as a completely different design would be the Molnar.
Please do. ALL H beam rods lead their way back to Carrillo. Easy and simple to see.
If you are trying to infer that it's a profit thing because I do or do not sell Promaxx, it's silly, Promaxx has a decent markup and readily available to me. Happy to drop ship you a set.
It's Brent that makes a fair income in TFS heads. Has he never offered a set of Pro Ports for a customer that wants maximum hp? And he ALWAYS steers people away from the other "All American Edelbrocks".
I see absolutely no difference in using Molnar rods and Pro Maxx heads.
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I think you need more fiber in your diet, Frank. You've been eating too many crayons.
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Lets see the pictures, Brent. You offered.
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/55558079050_899ff9d5a1_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/55557705396_6d177fa44c_z.jpg)
Sorry little buddy, Ray Charles called me and told me that he could even see the difference. You can't tell the difference between Carrillo, Dyers, or Manley, but the Molnar sticks out like a sore thumb due to the small beam cross section.
When I want really big power numbers, I use Jay Brown's heads. Working on a 520ci engine now, heads flow about 475. It will be the third engine I've built with them. And yes, I make a good income off of selling TFS heads, along with Pond heads, CNC Edelbrocks, you name it. Thanks for the advertisement!
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JFC, I think an alternative engine swap is more attractive all the time!
Some people just can't comprehend the effective difference between shooting into space and a shooting into close proximity to your own foot.
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Duplicate post...
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I don't know, Brent. What part of "H" beam do you not understand or is your vision failing?
What does it say on the side of this rod, that I also posted earlier in this thread?
Carrillo also makes a "I" beam rod but, it's not made in China.
Let's be honest here, Brent..... Jay doesn't make heads any more and they were never readily available in quantity. There is only a a few sets out there. Did you sell the heads your working with or did the customer buy them from Jay?
How many Pond or Edelbrock heads have you sold and how many TFS heads have you sold? You talk down Edelbrocks, like they are the plague and I've never heard you suggest a Pond head for a build.
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There are companies that DIRECTLY copied other companies' work. Speedmaster/Procomp directly copied the CHI 3V Cleveland head. They directly copied the MSD distributor. They directly copied the Funnel Web intakes for Clevelands and Windsors. We are not talking about parts that kinda use the same design, we are talking about direct copies. Did you know that Summit quit selling the Speedmaster line of products because there was an automatic transmission part that was copied so closely it still had Broader Performance engraved on it?
https://www.thedrive.com/news/big-name-distributor-caught-stealing-small-shops-part-design-and-selling-it-on-summit
That's what we are talking about here and in the beginning the Stevens head was a direct copy of an Edelbrock head.
You can obviously see that a Molnar rod is not a direct copy of a Carrillo rod. It looks nothing like it, aside from the fact that it is an H-beam and has 2 rod bolts.
If I remember correctly, all the FE Power cylinder heads that I've worked with, the customers bought them straight from Jay. I didn't sell them and didn't mark them up. That includes the Tunnel Port heads that Jay made as well. They are great heads, make a ton of horsepower.
How many Pond or Edelbrock heads have I sold? Holy cow, there's no telling over the course of the last 18 years. Just sold a set of Pond HR heads this past weekend. Got Pond SOHC heads for a build in here now. Jay Zolko just posted some nice ported Pond HR numbers on his Facebook and Instagram page, along with some flow numbers from some other brand heads. May wanna check them out. Do I sell a lot of TFS heads? Absolutely, because they are such an easy, bolt-on, great fit for a ton of builds, have a very reasonable price, and make a ton of power out of the box without touching anything.
Believe it or not, Frank, there's things that I do in my business that you don't know about and I don't advertise on the forum. Imagine that? But thanks for allowing me to expound on my line card. Much appreciated!