FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Boiler Ben on February 03, 2025, 10:50:15 AM
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I am getting close to adding oil and pre-oiling the engine prior to installing the intake manifold. I have a couple questions about what to expect.
1) It looks like oil could drip from the rocker arms and maybe enter the intake side of the heads. I haven't seen discussion on this before. Do you mask this off somehow?
2) I have the heads tapped for restrictors but have not put the restrictors in yet. I saw somewhere that the decision about whether or not to use restrictors can be made after seeing what happens during pre-oiling. But I am not sure what to be looking for. I do know that my bearing clearances may be a bit tighter than some people use. And I have a HV standard pressure pump. And this is a street engine, not a race car.
Any advice?
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1. It could. It could also run down the drains, run down the head gasket, then along the bottom side of the heads. It's a necessary evil though. Just be careful and keep some shop towels handy.
2. Plan on restricting. Never seen one that didn't need it.
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.......................... keep some shop towels handy.
Yeah, those cylinder head drain passages that emanate at each end of the head intake face, if without a barrier, are going to empty oil on the floor! :o
And this is a street engine, not a race car.
If it's "just-a-street-car", be somewhat less aggressive on the oil restricting intent, just let it 'flow', it is your friend here. And note that what one might witness in something of a pre-oiling process, isn't necessarily what might be taking place in an actual engine running scenario, at the variable possible speeds. :)
Scott.
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Why not install the intake manifold before you prime the oiling system?
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It's not too uncommon to find issues while priming. Either a lifter isn't doing what it should, a restrictor is doing too much/not enough, etc. I always prime with the intake off for reasons such as that. Saves a set of intake gaskets and an hour of clean-up.
I primed the pump on a SBF once while it was on the stand. Hit the drill and the amount of oil coming out of one rocker arm was unprecedented LOL. They were Ford Racing OEM style hydraulic roller lifters and someone had left the metering disc out of the lifter. Luckily, the intake was off and it was a quick and easy fix.
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One time I was working on a SBF for a friend. It a fresh rebuild by somebody else, complete and in the car. It dumped oil out the rear of the block. They had forgot to install the plugs. I pulled it out took it down to a long block and installed plugs where needed and out it back together. Then found that all the rockers were over tightened.
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I pre oiled the engine this weekend without the intake manifold and without restrictors. The pressure built to 95 psi (after getting a new heavy duty drill from Harbor Freight). I noticed oil pooling on top of each of the lifters. Is that all I should be looking for there or should I look for some oil seeping around the lifter bores?
On the rockers, the passenger side flowed a lot of oil, more in the middle than on the ends but it looked like each rocker was getting oil. On the drivers side, there was oil, but much less. And 7 & 8 seemed pretty dry. Oil was spilling over on the passenger side, starting to leak down into spark plugs, so I stopped. Not sure if I would have eventually seen more oil on the drivers side or not.
Ideas for what to try or look for next?
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I pre oiled the engine this weekend without the intake manifold and without restrictors. The pressure built to 95 psi (after getting a new heavy duty drill from Harbor Freight). I noticed oil pooling on top of each of the lifters. Is that all I should be looking for there or should I look for some oil seeping around the lifter bores?
On the rockers, the passenger side flowed a lot of oil, more in the middle than on the ends but it looked like each rocker was getting oil. On the drivers side, there was oil, but much less. And 7 & 8 seemed pretty dry. Oil was spilling over on the passenger side, starting to leak down into spark plugs, so I stopped. Not sure if I would have eventually seen more oil on the drivers side or not.
Ideas for what to try or look for next?
Well, you need rocker arm restrictors for sure. Never seen an engine where they weren't needed.
Is this a hydraulic cam? Are you oiling through pushrods or through the heads?
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This is a hydraulic roller cam. Oiling through the heads and pushrods are not installed.
I can put in restrictors. I’ve heard it can add 5 psi? 100 psi sounds pretty high. Certainly getting enough flow on one side without them. But haven’t seen enough oil on the other side yet.
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If you're oiling through the heads, there are things on each side of the engine that can prohibit oil flow, including the head bolts.
Definitely restrict.
What oil are you running? 95-100 psi is more than what I usually see. With an M57HV pump, I usually see about 80-85.
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I am using Schaefers Micron Moly SAE 30. I have a HV, standard pressure pump. Main bearing clearances ~0.0020”. Temp in my garage was maybe 50F.
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I pre oiled the engine......................., the passenger side flowed a lot of oil, more in the middle than on the ends but..............On the drivers side, there was oil, but much less. And 7 & 8 seemed pretty dry....................
Ideas for what to try or look for next?
Remember: ???
note that what one might witness in something of a pre-oiling process, isn't necessarily what might be taking place in an actual engine running scenario,.................
But yes, it's a nice start in garnering an impression. :)
Scott.
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I do remember. I thought I was ready. I successfully blocked the oil at the corners. But I couldn’t protect the waterfall on the sides. But just the one side though.
Scott - your comment about being less aggressive with restricting was why I tried without restricting first. They’ll be easy enough to add now but I’m wondering about the high oil pressure and not enough flow on the drivers side right now.
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I do remember. I thought I was ready. I successfully blocked the oil at the corners. But I couldn’t protect the waterfall on the sides. But just the one side though.
Scott - your comment about being less aggressive with restricting was why I tried without restricting first. They’ll be easy enough to add now but I’m wondering about the high oil pressure and not enough flow on the drivers side right now.
SAE 30 oil is thick. I wouldn't recommend it at all for a break-in oil for a hydraulic roller engine. Oils such as a 5W-30, 10W-30, etc., essentially have dual personalities. They behave one way when it's cold and behave another when it's hot. Your cold SAE30 oil is probably to blame for the high pressure. If it were me, I'd ditch it and throw some Valvoline VR1 10W-30 non-synthetic in there, Driven 10W30, etc.
Put the restrictors in. Seriously, there's never been one single FE that I've not used restrictors in from the time I started building engines until now. There's no need to flood the entire top end with oil, even with factory rockers. The HV pump exacerbates this. Put the restrictors in. Put the restrictors in. If it's a bushed rocker or factory rocker, you can restrict down to .070"-.080". My longest running street engines are there. If it's a needle bearing rocker, you can go a hair tighter.
Once you've put the restrictors in 8) try it again, lay some shop towels in the troughs of the heads, then prime again and see what you get out of the other side.
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I’ll do it. Restrictors will go in. The ones I have measure 0.084”. The rockers are bushed. From Precision Oil Pump. I honed them until they rotated freely.
I’ll post the results but it’ll likely be a few days before I get to it.
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The rockers are bushed. I honed them until they rotated freely.
This ideally is where the oil leakage rate should be controlled! And if you were given the rockers with bushings being undersized (GREAT! 8) ) this allowing the opportunity to limit the otherwise generally experienced 'excessive' clearances between the shaft and rockers then restrictors wouldn't be necessary, particularly for a "street" engine. ;)
We've built many FE road-course type engines; and in particularly the "F.I.A." legal types, these requiring "stock-type" rocker-arms, and in the past we would utilize the Crane Cams "Ductile Iron" adjustable units (N.A :( ) which I have bored, pressed and sized (properly ;) ) bronze bushings for a clearance of .0005" or less (we have run .0003"), this vs. the as otherwise commonly received .0015" (and that would be rare to encounter ::) ) to .003" (these still being considered "GOOD"! :-[ ), and don't ask about "used" stuff :o ; and in these instances an .080" restrictor only acts as an oil loss control safety feature, if a rocker arm or the shaft breaks, but the shaft 'is' pressurized and there is no "excessive" leakage (as some 'is' required! ;) ) and there isn't starvation of some and certainly reduces instances of burnt pushrod adjusters & cups! :)
But, I'm not saying that "restrictors" aren't a good idea and even necessary in some instances and you really don't want to "flood" the under-valve-cover area, but I think they are excessively relied upon as a crutch; and if your already pumping the oil (it's a "positive-displacement" pump and also excessive bypassing within the pump creates other issues ??? ) then you might as well utilize it! :)
Scott.
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I’ll do it. Restrictors will go in. The ones I have measure 0.084”. The rockers are bushed. From Precision Oil Pump. I honed them until they rotated freely.
I’ll post the results but it’ll likely be a few days before I get to it.
Brent already gave you good stuff, but I'll add, get that 30w out of there if it is single weight oil. WAY too thick for your clearances and drainback. 10w30 or 10w40 VR1, Gibbs, or Penngrade, and I would lean toward 10w30 with .002 mains, if hot idle oil pressure looks low after break in, you can try 10w40. Restrict the rockers, .084 is OK and with the thinner oil will drain back easy but I generally go less, closer to .072.
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Dumping this fresh oil will be painful for me but I guess I could do it. My plan was to dump it after a dyno test. I can find Valvoline VR1 in either 10W-30 or 20W-50. I don’t see that they make 10W-40.
Also, for some reason, the 10W-30 has less zinc and phosphorus than the 20W-50. Any guidance on minimum amounts? Is the 1100 ppm zinc and 1000 ppm phosphorus good enough?
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Dumping this fresh oil will be painful for me but I guess I could do it. My plan was to dump it after a dyno test. I can find Valvoline VR1 in either 10W-30 or 20W-50. I don’t see that they make 10W-40.
Also, for some reason, the 10W-30 has less zinc and phosphorus than the 20W-50. Any guidance on minimum amounts? Is the 1100 ppm zinc and 1000 ppm phosphorus good enough?
If this is a hydraulic roller, some of the lifters won't tolerate a thicker viscosity. Valvoline VR1 10W30 is perfectly fine.
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10-4. I mean 10-30.
Anything additional for switching the oil? I’ll get out as much as I can. Can I drain the filter and reuse that?
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Sure
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If you have a roller cam, you really don`t need the extra ZDDP additives. That said, the Brad Penn/Penngrade 1 oils do have higher levels of ZDDP than most "regular" of the shelf oils. And my 428 has a solid flat tappet cam, and I run 10/30 Penngrade1 oil, and it has plenty of oil pressure. When cold, it is 80-90 psi at 1500 RPM, and even hot, it has 65-70 psi at cruising speeds, 1500 RPM or higher, and even after a 2 hour summer freeway trip, never goes below 30 psi at hot idle. And my main and rod bearing clearances are similar, .002-.0025.
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Dumping this fresh oil will be painful for me but I guess I could do it. My plan was to dump it after a dyno test. I can find Valvoline VR1 in either 10W-30 or 20W-50. I don’t see that they make 10W-40.
Also, for some reason, the 10W-30 has less zinc and phosphorus than the 20W-50. Any guidance on minimum amounts? Is the 1100 ppm zinc and 1000 ppm phosphorus good enough?
Fresh oil, recycle into your other car, lawn mower etc.
Did you use new pop shafts with rockers? Not sure why you would need to hone them. The last set I had fit fine out of the box.
I use 10-30 VR1 in my stocker engine with a little looser clearances, oil restrictors to the heads and I have the same pressures as Rory.
Mike
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Dumping this fresh oil will be painful for me but I guess I could do it. My plan was to dump it after a dyno test. I can find Valvoline VR1 in either 10W-30 or 20W-50. I don’t see that they make 10W-40.
Also, for some reason, the 10W-30 has less zinc and phosphorus than the 20W-50. Any guidance on minimum amounts? Is the 1100 ppm zinc and 1000 ppm phosphorus good enough?
I think you got this loud and clear but if it's a roller motor, you really do not have any choice. Find something else for it. It's absolutely the wrong oil and zinc doesn't matter much. If it's a flat tappet, you could run the 30W but realize that thick goop may not want to get back to the pan readily or may even blow a filter. (assuming it is straight 30W). Brent can chime in when one of mine popped a filter, didn't hurt anything but there are probably still oil stains all over the dyno cell :)
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On my break in stand I just use a magnetic heater on the oil pan, thins the oil out to the way it is when the engine is warm. Leave it on until the pan is warm, and when you light it off, you have normal flow instead of syrup. I also have a coolant heater that I am going to install in the lower radiator hose
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Ok, I installed restrictors and replaced my straight SAE 30 oil with VR1 10W-30. The oil pressure is the same 95 psi I had before so maybe those two changes cancelled each other out from a pressure perspective. I verified oil in each lifter and each rocker was at least wet on both the pushrod and valve tip sides. But there was significantly more flow on the passenger side. And on the last three rockers (7 & 8), there was very little flow. The valve tips were wet but the spring retainers were dry instead of like the others where oil flowed down the springs.
Should I rotate the engine? Should I inspect those dryer rockers?
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I do exactly as you have done - restrictors are a judgement call at preoiling. Some definitely need it - some don't. If you follow the tortuous path that FE rockers get oiling through, you'll understand why they can be so variable. From cam groove to bearing to block, through passages and then alongside a head bolt and and alongside a rocker fastener to the stand, and then up into the shaft. I have seen some where the machining/assembly tolerance stack up causes the head bolt to block oil. I have seen the same thing at the cylinder head/rocker fastener and at the rocker fastener to the shaft itself. You simply need to check and address the problem - if there is one. Sometimes all you need to do is loosen the rocker assembly and give it a plastic mallet tap at one side or the other to make a significant change.
That 95 psi does seem high - I normally see 70-80 on the drill. How were the bearing clearances measured? I'd still probably just let 'er rip with that number cold.
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But there was significantly more flow on the passenger side. And on the last three rockers (7 & 8), there was very little flow. The valve tips were wet but the spring retainers were dry instead of like the others where oil flowed down the springs.
I assuming the engine is sill on the engine stand (?), so I'd probably start by just removing the rocker shaft assemblies, remove the oil restrictors (if located iin the head below the stand, and with a "speed-handle", hand crank the oil pump so as to witness the oil sums from each side in comparison. :-\
And yes, rotate the engine one revolution re-test, rotate and retest again, and again; Remember what was stated previously: This observation, for a number of reasons, may very well not present oil distribution in the same fashion as that as with the engine actually operating. ;)
If the oil sums exiting the heads seem consistent left and right, swap rocker-shaft positions and see what happens, does the problem follow the shafts? ???
Scott.
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I would say one other thing.
Look close and see if your oil pressure gauge shows a wiggle at max pressure from the relief working. Most of us have a larger dial master gauge we use, and it will show, but it is possible you could have a stuck relief. If not maybe your clearances are tighter than you think.
The one I mentioned earlier that popped a filter had normal-ish oil pressure with a speed handle (I don't use a drill) but after we found the issue you could see it on the gauge when the relief flexed, I look for it every time now, with a big gauge it's very easy to see.
As Barry said, it's a series of passages that finally get to the rockers, it can be imperfect out there. Paralysis by analysis can happen, if you have oil at every valve tip and rocker, you are likely good.
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Thank you for all of the advice. I have some things to try and I’ll let you guys know what I find.
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I removed the rockers, left the restrictors in place, and spun the pump manually. It seems a decent amount comes out both sides but the passenger side is more. I switched rocker shafts left to right (#8 is now in #1 spot) and spun pump manually again. There was more oil on the passenger side again. But the one labeled #8 was getting less than the others.
I’m wondering if 2 things are going on. Maybe something restricting the #8 rockers AND the head stud on the drivers side causing less flow on that side. I always need to stop before making a huge mess so it’s possible if I pumped long enough they would all get oil.
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If you put a heater on the oil pan and let it warm up, you will get a more realistic picture of flow, and will be able to pump it longer as the warm oil will drain back faster
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Just an update on this. I fixed the low oil flow on the drivers side by turning down the head stud by 0.020". The ARP studs with Edelbrock heads don't have a ton of clearance and this helped a bunch. The other side was fine. It also lowered the oil pressure I was seeing from 95 down closer to 85.
Just one last issue with one rocker and the valve tip not getting oil. These are bushed roller rockers that I had to hone to fit. Apparently I didn't clean them well enough after honing and one of them has debris blocking flow to the roller. I feel like all of them should be re-cleaned just in case. Any suggestion for how to clean the rockers?