FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Dr Mabuse on January 16, 2025, 12:18:09 PM
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The Autolite inline 4V carb may have had outstanding induction distribution, but it was a failure. As I recall, the "problem" was fuel management when cornering or accelerating. Barry Grant tried to market a design similar to the Autolite, but it too failed.
Tom Vaught worked for Holley until 1978, and wrote about it in this link:
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=819888
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From post #39 (in the link)
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"Agree, But the Beautiful RA-V type heads that Don has produced were originally designed for the Ford 427 engine.
Pontiac copied the design as many, many people know.
So there is a bit more to it vs a SD Truck Hood Scoop installed on some Pontiac hoods, would you not think?
But your comment is a bit funny to read though, thanks for the levity.
Tom V."
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Tom Vaught is a great guy, and a true hard core performance engineer. He has helped me with supercharging and turbocharging applications, and I still have a couple of T80 turbos with wastegates that I got from him, for a cammer project. I haven't used them, and he has asked to buy them back LOL!
I had two of the 1425 cfm Autolite inline carbs on my 66 Cyclone back in the 1980s. The engine was a stroked 460 with an offset ground crank, aluminum rods, and 429 CJ heads, so the big round ports looked like a good match for those carbs. I had built an individual runner intake sized to fit those carbs, and also put some velocity stacks on top. They looked mean as hell, but I couldn't get them to work off the line; no matter what I did the pump shot wasn't big enough and the car would bog terribly when you mashed the throttle. Then it would take off like a rocket. Being in my 20s and not all that experienced, I really didn't know how to address the problem, and of course the carbs were worked over before I got them, so who knows what the issues could have been. But it was pretty hard to beat them for cool factor...
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The Autolite inline 4V carb may have had outstanding induction distribution, but it was a failure. As I recall, the "problem" was fuel management when cornering or accelerating. Barry Grant tried to market a design similar to the Autolite, but it too failed.--------
Failure? I guess so because they weren't a commercial success, but more like still born IMO. They were being introduced when Ford was exiting racing after Henry got wire brushed by Congress. The sanctioning bodies saw fit to them never finding a place in life and the combination rendered them into obscurity and were never developed beyond their initial introduction.
The much talked about fuel issue was no different than what Holley guys would call side hung floats and the solutions similar.
As far as Jay's experience and regarding shot size, a pair of Inlines has 8 pumps and more capacity than any single Holley. Shot size is/was adjustable with arm stroke, and bigger shooters and/or stronger springs will deliver the shot sooner over a shorter duration. It's possible that launch caused the front main jets in each well to become uncovered. Not sure pure carbureted IR is the drag racing solution, and some inter runner communication can help in many regards.
At the end of the day, they're novel and can be tuned to run pretty well but there's no magic in an Inline carb......they're just an ejector that regulates air/fuel like most any other carb. For those racing and looking for HP, because of their value, I used to advise people there were better places to invest $ for HP, but as the prices of Holley Carbs climb.....? But I think they are best for period correct build on fun street cars.
I've added some systems to my website and will be adding more in the near future. The FE system based on Jay's adapter is available and I also have and IR version. I also have carbs available, and you can pick and choose from menu pricing up to a turnkey system.
https://inlinecarb.com/parts--systems-for-sale.html
Best,
Kelly
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Man, now I need to dig out my old HotRod with the inline on the cover lol. IIRC a lot of the fuss was that they were made up from existing Autolite carb parts wrapped up in new castings. I got my paws on a couple, Cross-Boss stuff, back when Cantrell was still around in the 70's (might have been part of the truckload of goodies they got at the Holman Moody sale) but that was a long time ago. Was a cool design, but stillborn without much development time out in the world
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To me, the Autolite inline, as well as the Kendig/Predator, and some other "new thinking" designs at the time, like the 4 2 barrel "Man A Fre" setup, were brought out to "build a better mouse trap", but after all these years, the conventional Holley carb is pretty tough to beat. We have a local fella in his early 80s, that is still drag racing the same 31 Model A that he has had since 1967, with a SB Chevy. He still has the same Man A Fre that he bought new, similar to the Man A Fre on the Milner Coupe in American Graffiti. He used it years ago, but when he built the current engine, he dynoed the new engine, with both his Brodix single 4 barrel single plane intake and Holley 750, and the old Man A Fre, and the Man A Fre, with it`s 4 Rochester 2GC 2 barrel carbs, was down by just over 100 HP. In the 80s, I tried a Predator on my 70 428 4 speed 70 Mach 1, that ran mid 12s back then, and compared to the Holley 780 Vacuum secondary, I did get the Predator to run almost as quick at the dragstrip, but didn`t much car for it`s part throttle response and drivability. I have seen, but never used an Autolite Inline 4 barrel, or seen one apart, but have no idea if all 4 throttle plates were connected, so they all opened together, or were staged, but with a separate accelerator pump for each bore, have to think that they would be pretty thirsty. I imagine that the idea behind the inline was for use with a plenumless, individual runner intake manifold, for use with 2 carbs, so a barrel for each cylinder, kinda like a 4 Weber setup, and used modified style intake to use a single inline. Wonder if each barrel had it`s own float chamber and float, it`s own idle circuit, and vacuum style of part throttle enrichment (think power valve). Very interesting experiment, and would certainly look cool hanging on your wall, but between trying to make it work well, and getting replacement gaskets and parts, probably best left to look at, on display.
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Ford had a handy booklet available that, along with the description, had part numbers, etc. I think I got mine from official Ford answer man John Vermeersch years ago. There’s an Inline Autolite website too, and if I remember he has some parts for sale.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fy0wkhvh/C6-E23-DE7-82-A7-4782-BCA5-879-C12-BBE112.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FkNtn8qP)
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Man, now I need to dig out my old HotRod with the inline on the cover lol. IIRC a lot of the fuss was that they were made up from existing Autolite carb parts wrapped up in new castings. I got my paws on a couple, Cross-Boss stuff, back when Cantrell was still around in the 70's (might have been part of the truckload of goodies they got at the Holman Moody sale) but that was a long time ago. Was a cool design, but stillborn without much development time out in the world
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYPvB8Cc/IMG-5533.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WD4vPT2x)
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Man, now I need to dig out my old HotRod with the inline on the cover lol. IIRC a lot of the fuss was that they were made up from existing Autolite carb parts wrapped up in new castings. I got my paws on a couple, Cross-Boss stuff, back when Cantrell was still around in the 70's (might have been part of the truckload of goodies they got at the Holman Moody sale) but that was a long time ago. Was a cool design, but stillborn without much development time out in the world
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYPvB8Cc/IMG-5533.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WD4vPT2x)
Yep, that one. Actually I think I have a couple, the one I've had since I was a kid, and one I found at a swap
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...... I have seen, but never used an Autolite Inline 4 barrel, or seen one apart, but have no idea if all 4 throttle plates were connected, so they all opened together, or were staged, but with a separate accelerator pump for each bore, have to think that they would be pretty thirsty. I imagine that the idea behind the inline was for use with a plenumless, individual runner intake manifold, for use with 2 carbs, so a barrel for each cylinder, kinda like a 4 Weber setup, and used modified style intake to use a single inline. Wonder if each barrel had it`s own float chamber and float, it`s own idle circuit, and vacuum style of part throttle enrichment (think power valve). Very interesting experiment, and would certainly look cool hanging on your wall, but between trying to make it work well, and getting replacement gaskets and parts, probably best left to look at, on display.
All throttle plates are connected and are not progressive though the throttle linkage has a somewhat progressive linkage action. The D0ZX9510A 875 cfm carb was jetted as delivered to be run on a common plenum intake (ala CrossBoss) and the D0ZX9510B "1425cfm" carb was jetted to be an IR carb. The B-carb had a 2.25" throttle plate (in fact, it was sourced from the QuadraJet spread bore secondary) so about the same a 58mm IDA Weber.
Each pair of cylinders shared a float, metering valve, and main well but each cylinder had its own dedicated accelerator pump and metering circuits including idle.
There's an old internet myth that is repeated in the link in the first post of this thread, stating that the early carbs didn't have an idle circuit but that is not true. They all had the same circuits including idle circuits.....even the prototype dyno/lab mules......I know because I own 3 of the original 4 mules. -Still looking for the fourth.
I offer all gaskets and rebuild parts, and a host of others too, so that's not a problem.
Best,
Kelly
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How do Webers overcome the "problems" of the Autolite inline 4V, and why didn't Ford figure it out right from the start, with their (otherwise) thoughtful, innovative, and excellent design?
Was it simply a case of running fine on a dyno, but not working under the G-forces of racing?
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How do Webers overcome the "problems" of the Autolite inline 4V, and why didn't Ford figure it out right from the start, with their (otherwise) thoughtful, innovative, and excellent design?
Was it simply a case of running fine on a dyno, but not working under the G-forces of racing?
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Maybe, but I think it was more a matter of development budget, timeline, and the need/desire to use existing production parts......why wouldn't they? IMO, the whole fuel starvation issue is akin to the no idle circuit internet myth.......when people bring this up, I always ask, have you actually experienced this or just read about it?
Take the whole "side hung floats are no good argument".....it's argued that it's because the float pivot motion is out of the line acceleration (forward and stopping). OK, so when you replace them with center hung floats, why doesn't the same problem still exist in lateral corning g forces? And it's not like the same issues didn't/doesn't exist in Holley carbs. The position of the float doesn't stop the fuel in the well from being displaced by acceleration and that is what needs to be controlled in respect to where the fuel is tapped by the metering circuits in either case.
......and how many different versions of Holley carbs are there? -Many, and many more list #s. There is one version of Inline. It's just available in two different sizes.
I guess all I'm trying to say is, nobody races a stock engine or Holley carb as it is taken out of the box without modification and tailoring to suit. Why should an Inline be any different?
I have good reason to believe <700 (combined) of both versions of Inline carbs were ever made, and all of those parts were made at the same time in the first two quarters of 1970. The first production carb shows up in July. The parts were built into carbs in lots with the last being February of 1972 and pushed out to the dealers. All of those carbs were the same except for minor cosmetic differences. By the time the first production carb was available, it was already unavailable to race teams because of the rules changes and homologation requirements which the sanctioning bodies were right to be skeptical of whether Ford had met those requirements given what I stated about production numbers.
So there was no development beyond that first production run of parts, at least none that saw the light of day. What would a Holley carb be if they had one (their first) version and production expression for all time? .....and I'm certainly not bashing Holley Carbs. All my cars are equipped with them.
-Just a little perspective.
Best,
Kelly
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How do Webers overcome the "problems" of the Autolite inline 4V, and why didn't Ford figure it out right from the start, with their (otherwise) thoughtful, innovative, and excellent design?
Was it simply a case of running fine on a dyno, but not working under the G-forces of racing?
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Maybe, but I think it was more a matter of development budget, timeline, and the need/desire to use existing production parts....
-Just a little perspective.
Best,
Kelly
Thanks for your detailed perspective! Many questions remain. It seems that Ford/Autolite would have studied the Weber designs as a model, in an attempt to create and implement a competitive and improved model, only to be abandoned by Ford.
Likewise, Barry Grant's attempt also failed, possibly/only because of his company's bankruptcy. He reported outstanding early results, especially with the intake charge distribution.
Here we are, over 50 years later, and without an insider's perspective, we may never know the "inside" story, with modern fuel injection the industry standard.
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Has anyone tuned one of these carbs, since Jay did his?
It doesn't seem like it would that big of a problem, to get the bog out of it, to a well experienced carb guy. There are some very talented guy's out there.
It pretty much has to be in the transfer or emulsion circuit. I doubt that it would be lack of accelerator pump capacity, with 4 pumps, Holley's get along just fine with 2 pumps, per 4v.
Jay, did you try different size squirters?
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I would agree that the issues attributed to the inline carbs were due to the "darn near prototype" situation.
Most every part or vehicle sees continuous upgrades over time - especially in the first few iterations as real world experience accrues.
The development of the 427 SOHC is similar - any significant issues would have been resolved if it had truly gone into volume production.
Instead, both are subject to decades of hearsay and retold rumors from years long gone by.
FWIW - even modern-ish EFI systems are really touchy when used in IR applications
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Has anyone tuned one of these carbs, since Jay did his?
It doesn't seem like it would that big of a problem, to get the bog out of it, to a well experienced carb guy. There are some very talented guy's out there.
It pretty much has to be in the transfer or emulsion circuit. I doubt that it would be lack of accelerator pump capacity, with 4 pumps, Holley's get along just fine with 2 pumps, per 4v.
Jay, did you try different size squirters?
If I recall correctly (it's been about 40 years LOL), there were no replaceable squirters like a Holley has, or if there were, different ones weren't available. My accelerator pumps would each spit out 1-2 little drops of fuel from each pump. Certainly nothing like a stream of fuel that you get from a Holley pump. I replaced the pump diaphrams and the check valves to try to solve this problem; I remember buying some Autolite carb rebuild kits to get all the parts I needed. But this didn't solve the problem. It just seemed like the accelerator pump chamber wasn't filling with fuel.
Bear in mind that these carbs were far from new when I got them, and may have been modified from their stock condition. Who knows what issues they may have had...
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Has anyone tuned one of these carbs, since Jay did his?
All the time.
If I recall correctly (it's been about 40 years LOL), there were no replaceable squirters like a Holley has, or if there were, different ones weren't available. My accelerator pumps would each spit out 1-2 little drops of fuel from each pump. Certainly nothing like a stream of fuel that you get from a Holley pump. I replaced the pump diaphrams and the check valves to try to solve this problem; I remember buying some Autolite carb rebuild kits to get all the parts I needed. But this didn't solve the problem. It just seemed like the accelerator pump chamber wasn't filling with fuel.
Bear in mind that these carbs were far from new when I got them, and may have been modified from their stock condition. Who knows what issues they may have had...
Well clearly, the pumps were inactive and no surprise it stumbled with no pump function. I certainly can't say what was available to you 40 years ago but 50 years ago tuning parts were certainly available (and are from me now) and the shooters are indeed tunable and replaceable. Replacing them is not as easy as it should be but they almost always need to be larger (unless previously modified), and you can do that with a wire gauge drill and pin vise without removing them. Replacing them is a little more involved as seen here on my website.
https://inlinecarb.com/uploads/3/4/4/8/34481757/replacing_shooters.pdf
There were also mod kits for the check valves. They could be helpful but weren't necessary most of the time though I do recommend this and a mod of my own for IR carbs.
https://inlinecarb.com/uploads/3/4/4/8/34481757/conical_check_valve_modification_for_accelerator_pump_circuit.pdf
There is a .014" bleed vent to the pump well from the main well and if that becomes plugged by old fuel (which almost is always the case with a carb that was put away wet), the accelerator well often will either not fill or not fill completely. As a matter of course, I make sure they are clear when I rebuild a carb. Also, there are a number of things I do to insure the check valves function properly.
The most common thing I get is from folks is "my carb is NOS" so I don't need rebuild parts. -Not true. 55-year-old accel pump diaphragms are so hard they won't move regardless of whether they have ever seen fuel......which means they won't pump.
Finer tuning with the emulsion tubes is similar to Weber carbs in principle and neither hard to understand nor to do. You just have to be willing to do it. A good tach and A/F meter helps a bunch......but this is so tuning any carb.
As Barry said, IR systems can be a bit finicky, and by nature want a completely different jetting and enrichment scheme, and truth be told, different cam profile and ignition curve. But I've had owners that throw a stock carb on a unique IR engine combo, and when it won't run worth a pooh, or at all, they throw their hands up and blame the carb.
I have customers that are just collectors and that's fine, but I enjoy working with those that intend to run them and that's why I make custom systems (and because I like the challenge of making them). If you have tuning experience, and understand the basic functions of carbs, an Inline isn't hard to understand and although I can't virtually tune everyone's unique engine combination via email, I can usually talk a reasonably versed person through it in a phone call.
This is just hobby stuff for me so whether you want to run an Inline doesn't matter to me, but for those who do want to run them, I try to accommodate and support them, and the reasons people do are probably not much different than the reasons they own a 60-year-old car or build on a 50-60-year-old engine platform.
The discussion here in this thread is fairly typical, I'll quit bangin' on about it cuz it's not really FE talk, but Inlines are tunable carbs.....it's just unrealistic to expect them to suit every unique engine in the configuration they were originally built without tuning.
Best,
Kelly
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Kelly, thanks for the explanation. I would bet that the bleed holes to the pump well you mentioned was clogged or blocked somehow with my carbs. Knowing nothing about them at the time, and being a fairly inexperienced mechanic, I would not have known what to look for. It's too bad, because the car ran really hard after overcoming the initial stumble...
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.......and being a fairly inexperienced mechanic, I would not have known what to look for. It's too bad, because the car ran really hard after overcoming the initial stumble...
My how times change. If you ever get the itch again, you know where to find me. :)
When I was young, I knew guys that hated AFBs and QuadraJets but I also knew guys that could work magic with them. I had drag racing friends that loved their variable venturi Predator carbs and did very well with them. I had a fella that drag raced IR Inlines and he actually locked out the accelerator pumps because he launched at high Rs, was tuned for that range, and never fell out of it or needed the enrichment circuits.
......but it's pretty hard to beat a good old Holley. They are practical, do the job well, and well known to many.
I think it really comes down to what you're familiar with and invested in as far as tuning parts and experience. I like good horse sense tuners though and will take a great engine tuner over deep pockets.
One of my favorites is with the Cross Boss Inline Carb Plenum intake for the B302. The runners on that intake are horizontal and nested across the valley and the exposed to the plenum on the opposite cylinder bank. The #5 runner is the first one from front to back and it has a big dent in it to clear the distributor. If you get the system in tune per an A/F meter, you'll miss the fact that #5 runs lean (and to a lesser extent #1) unless you read plugs, or maybe EGT. To this day, there is a fella on the B2 forum that claims the CB intake is junk without radical surgery. 30 years ago, I had a fella tell me to just run one or two size larger main jets in the front carb bore......problem solved. :D
Best,
Kelly
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I was thinking about how many times I have made web forum posts about this same subject matter and finally just decided to take an hour and make a video on the topic of Inlines and basic tuning. Hopefully you may find it useful.
https://youtu.be/B8G3f_1HagQ?si=21rWnM_s8IvrJfEe
Best,
Kelly
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Hmmm is this the genesis of a comprehensive Jay Brown dyno thrash to sort this out?
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Hmmm is this the genesis of a comprehensive Jay Brown dyno thrash to sort this out?
I would like to see Jay start building new/revised Ford Inline carbs, and intake manifolds to go along with them. He probably has lots of free time on his schedule?
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Jay, we need a picture of your Cyclone with the inlines on it!
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........I would like to see Jay start building new/revised Ford Inline carbs, and intake manifolds to go along with them. He probably has lots of free time on his schedule?
I'm not Jay but I do that. If you surf around my YouTube channel there are a number of examples of cast manifolds for Inlines. I'm an admin at a hobby casting forum so the videos are geared more towards the casting process rather than the induction system but there is some of that too.
https://www.youtube.com/@kellycoffield533
I made one specifically for Jay's adapter. It's discussed here:
https://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=11999.0
I've made a number of these 2Brl versions. They are bigger than the 875 cfm A-Carbs but smaller than the 1425 cfm B-Carbs. I call them my A+ Carbs because my marketing department (aka me!) told me an A+ was better than a B-. The internals all interchange with the originals. They could be an Inline 4Brl, but as a 2Brl, they can either be arranged that way on an intake as if they were, or be preferentially positioned on different spacing for larger engine bore centers like FEs and 385 Series, for example centered between 1&2, 3&4, 5&6, 7&8.
Here they are on one of my intake casting projects.......my long runner B2 IR intake.
Best,
Kelly