FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Porkchop on September 10, 2024, 01:28:58 PM
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Hello,
I am starting the process of rerebuilding a Mercury 410 engine. I already built this engine but unfortunately it lasted <500 miles before developing a rod knock on #4 connecting rod.
I do not know 100% why this happened, but I would say it was a combination of too small of bearing clearances, cleanliness, and oiling issues. Rod bearings had 0.0015” clearance and mains had 0.002”, I understand now this is too tight. And I did not do the oiling modifications.
This time I’ll be taking the block, crank, rods, etc to a machine shop that knows FE’s.
Application: 69 F100 with 3 speed manual. This is a street truck, I will not be racing, but I will have fun with it.
Expectations: I would like 400-450 hp. No, I am not dead set on this. I know that is borderline for some parts I may want to use and so perhaps I would back off of that expectation.
Engine Details:
-Original Mercury 410 block, crank, rods
-Block is bored 0.030” over
-Stock Deck Height (pistons 0.030” down)
-Crank main and rod journals are 0.010” under
-Howard’s Cam HRCCL250031-12
https://www.competitionproducts.com/Howards-Cams-Hydraulic-Flat-Tappet-Camshaft-Lifter-Set-Ford-FE-352-428-213_223-050-525_525-112-LS/productinfo/HRCCL250031-12/
-Stock Rocker assemblies
-Sealed Power 1139P 9.5cc cast pistons
-C6AE-R Heads with CJ valves. No porting. Measured 74CC chambers
-Stock 4 barrel manifold (will probably go to aluminum)
-Edelbrock 750CFM carb
-Stock truck exhaust manifolds with dual exhaust. Will probably go to headers eventually
-Compression ratio estimated at 9.6 static, 7.9 dynamic
I want to keep the same block and crank. Perhaps I need to change pistons and rods to achieve my expectations?
Regarding machine work, I want to make sure I give the shop direction or I walk out knowing exactly what will happen before hand (this didn't happen with first shop). I think the crank needs to be reground to achieve the advised 0.0025-0.003" clearances. I think I will want to have the block 0 decked to increase compression a bit. I think the bores will be fine with a hone.
What are the thoughts/opinions on this?
Thanks for any advice!
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Need a little bigger cam, but 400-425 hp would be no problem.
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Installing headers on these old trucks is a dramatic performance upgrade. The stock exhaust manifolds are awful.
Do it now while you've got it torn down.
You won't regret it.
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Agree with Tommy, do the headers and exhaust. IIRC stock truck logs have a 2" outlet so it's suboptimal....
Flowmaster makes an 2.5 exhaust, and hooker may still be able to make a 2.25 that matches the hooker comp headers... not sure. Mines pretty much rusted away no thanks to jet hot.
I think the issue with the Flowmaster is you'll have to make connector pipes.
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Ok, I will probably try to get headers on when I install the engine.
So should I stick with the factory rods and cast pistons?
What cam would be recommended?
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If it was me i would talk to Brent on the cam.
Depending on what you find id closely compare the cost of the machine work to a new rotating assembly.
Keep us up to date on the build, sounds like fun.
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Just some thoughts for you to consider. Are you absolutely certain that your crankshaft is an actual 3.98" stroke 410/428 one, and not a 3.78" 390/406/427LR one? The reason I ask is because I have seen issues where people have installed replacement 410 pistons (with a 1.66" compression height) into 390 engines (which want a 1.76" compression height). This results in the engine having the .025"-.035" deck height you describe, which substantially lowers the compression ratio, down into the 8.X:1 range. That has a LARGE detrimental effect on the engine's power output.
I believe your estimation of both your static and dynamic compression ratios is off considerably, and it needs to be brought up. To achieve that, I really don't think you want to be cutting .030"+ off the deck surfaces! Unless you can find some actual high compression 420 pistons in .030" O/S, you may need to look at custom ones.
I agree completely with Brent Lykins' comment about the camshaft, if you do want horsepower up in the 425-450 range. He knows a lot more about cams than I do, but I suspect would advise going up about 10° @ .050" on both intake and exhaust. What you have now is essentially just a 'very mild' improvement on the stock 428CJ cam. These motors made about 400 HP from the factory, and that's with the CJ heads, 10.6:1 c.r., a very good factory intake and 735cfm Holley carb. It also had much better exhaust manifolds than your truck came with. So as several others have suggested here, get some actual headers for your truck. In that regard, Jay Brown found in his testing for his 'Great FE Intake Comparo' book, that an engine in the power range you're talking about (425 HP 428CJ) would 'average' about 330-336 HP with several different headers, and the ancient 'log' style exhaust manifolds, as found on most factory FE's, would only muster 293-296 HP.
And definitely replace that 83 Lb. cast iron intake manifold! Almost any aftermarket aluminum 4-Bbl intake you can find will deliver more power (as much as 35 HP!), and will take 50 Lbs off the front of your truck!
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Does that cam really have the HO small block firing order?
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Those are SilvOLite pistons right?
Howards webpage is messed up i cant get it to give me anything, unless i back door into it from google.
https://www.howardscams.com/hydraulic-flat-tappet-camshaft-1963-1977-ford-352-428-1400-5200-howards-cams-250031-12
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Sorry for the delayed response, I have been busy and not checked back.
Just some thoughts for you to consider. Are you absolutely certain that your crankshaft is an actual 3.98" stroke 410/428 one, and not a 3.78" 390/406/427LR one? The reason I ask is because I have seen issues where people have installed replacement 410 pistons (with a 1.66" compression height) into 390 engines (which want a 1.76" compression height). This results in the engine having the .025"-.035" deck height you describe, which substantially lowers the compression ratio, down into the 8.X:1 range. That has a LARGE detrimental effect on the engine's power output.
I did not personally measure the stroke. It has the 1U cast into it. I had it ground the first time, and I would have thought that this would have come up. Maybe that's not the case. Because of the damage to from the bearing issue, I have it at a shop being reground now, and I can inquire.
I thought that 0.030" was the factory piston depth for a 410. I am not sure where I read this now. Can anyone verify?
I believe your estimation of both your static and dynamic compression ratios is off considerably, and it needs to be brought up. To achieve that, I really don't think you want to be cutting .030"+ off the deck surfaces! Unless you can find some actual high compression 420 pistons in .030" O/S, you may need to look at custom ones.
I agree completely with Brent Lykins' comment about the camshaft, if you do want horsepower up in the 425-450 range. He knows a lot more about cams than I do, but I suspect would advise going up about 10° @ .050" on both intake and exhaust. What you have now is essentially just a 'very mild' improvement on the stock 428CJ cam. These motors made about 400 HP from the factory, and that's with the CJ heads, 10.6:1 c.r., a very good factory intake and 735cfm Holley carb. It also had much better exhaust manifolds than your truck came with. So as several others have suggested here, get some actual headers for your truck. In that regard, Jay Brown found in his testing for his 'Great FE Intake Comparo' book, that an engine in the power range you're talking about (425 HP 428CJ) would 'average' about 330-336 HP with several different headers, and the ancient 'log' style exhaust manifolds, as found on most factory FE's, would only muster 293-296 HP.
Understood about the camshaft. I chose it because I was concerned about detonation given the factory 410 is 10.5:1, and I didn't want to run premium (at a time when 87 was $4.30). In hindsight, I would be ok with premium or backing off timing when not.
Yes, I need to make headers a priority.
And definitely replace that 83 Lb. cast iron intake manifold! Almost any aftermarket aluminum 4-Bbl intake you can find will deliver more power (as much as 35 HP!), and will take 50 Lbs off the front of your truck!
I do actually have a knock off Edelbrock intake I am debating whether I'll use. It definitely needs some fitting.
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Those are SilvOLite pistons right?
Howards webpage is messed up i cant get it to give me anything, unless i back door into it from google.
https://www.howardscams.com/hydraulic-flat-tappet-camshaft-1963-1977-ford-352-428-1400-5200-howards-cams-250031-12
Yes, SilvOLite. Original post is incorrect.
Howard's website was messed up some time, now it seems the link is working.
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I'm with Kevin66 here something seems wrong.
Silvolite list those pistons as 390 pistons with a 1.66 compression height. (so Truck/410 Pistons) but they should not be that far down in the cylinder with a 3.98 stroke crank. Investigation is in order.
Christ's book shows a 410 as .005 deck clearance.
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(3.98/2)+6.49+1.66=10.14
If he had an uncut deck or is eyeballing it, .030 is logical. I recently had 2 uncut CJ here that were above 10.170 too but you don't see it often
With your parts, I wouldn't deck it to zero, but if it hasn't been cut, I'd square deck to where it needs to be cut. At 10.150 you could run a 1020 gasket and be at .051 quench and 9.89:1 which is still easy on fuel, then I would cam up a bit to hit your numbers, that's a very mild cam. it'll be nice to drive but you are leaving a lot of power on the table, more cam won't make it too rowdy
If stuck with the parts, don't worry though, that 10.150 decck combo will work, but I would install that cam at 110 centerline, no earlier, and depending on the use, maybe even at 112. That would make it behave very stock CJ like and would be a super nice driver on pump gas, probably not 400+ HP, but it'd be a nice runner
If I was playing with it, I'd likely go with an custom piston and cam, would need to know RPM range, gears, tires, intended use, etc, pick the cam first. Cut the deck to minimum required, then get a dish that matches the compression of the new cam. It would cost more, but you could get the most out of it, and as others said, likely end up at or above 10:1, tight quench and a cam that pulls hard in the area you most use it
I would not lose sleep over any of the combos, as long as willing to retard the cam but, be sure you check valve clearance on the cam you listed. It is low lift, but a lot of the shelf pistons are tight on radial clearance, and those likely were not planned for the CJ valve
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I did measure the depth. Looking back at my notes, I actually recorded 0.032". I found TDC with a dial indicator and then used a straight edge and feeler gauges. Maybe I was off by a couple thousandths in my measurements but not 25-30.
I did not have the deck machined at all during the first build, and I highly doubt it ever has been.
The purpose of the truck is a street/hot rod. I will not drag race, but I will be hard on it at times. I use it for truck duties around the house, but I am not frequently pulling trailers or heavy loads. 69 F100, ~29" tires, 3 speed manual, 3.25:1 rear.
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You likely were off but in the ballpark Most uf use a deck bridge wth two indicators, you find the top then rock the piston to equalize the two reading and that's your true measurement
Uncut deck (10.170-ish) - your stack (10.140-ish) = .030 ish
Deck it square, and likely do the heads too, recalculate compression, and retard the cam to make it a little easier on pump fuel. Did a temp 390 build for my F100 the same way with leftover parts and it was a veryr happy engine
...and good on you for actually measuring stuff, feeler gauges are hard to eliminate rock though
BTW, I think to meet your goals you need an Edelbrock RPM intake, cut the decks and heads to get closer to 10:1, then rock that cam back to 112. You'll be close or over 1 HP per cid, with the combo you have now, likely 375 hp ish. However, in any case, more than any old F series came with!
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I started to doubt what I had after you all pointed out the high piston to deck clearance that I have (~0.032"). But all of my parts were off to the machine shop before I even started this thread so I haven't been able to quickly get info or measure things.
I am looking through 2 books - one by George Reid and one by Pat Ganahl - to better understand what I have.
One book shows the 410 had a piston to deck clearance of 0.005", one states 0.015".
I have a 1U crank - one book states this only came in a 428, the other doesn't say one way or the other. I guess this is a moot point, just interesting.
The rods have a casting number of C6AE-C. Neither book lists these rods. Anyone familiar with these and what their length is?
The shop is going to install the crank and measure stroke and piston to deck clearance anyway.
You likely were off but in the ballpark Most uf use a deck bridge wth two indicators, you find the top then rock the piston to equalize the two reading and that's your true measurement
Uncut deck (10.170-ish) - your stack (10.140-ish) = .030 ish
Deck it square, and likely do the heads too, recalculate compression, and retard the cam to make it a little easier on pump fuel. Did a temp 390 build for my F100 the same way with leftover parts and it was a veryr happy engine
...and good on you for actually measuring stuff, feeler gauges are hard to eliminate rock though
BTW, I think to meet your goals you need an Edelbrock RPM intake, cut the decks and heads to get closer to 10:1, then rock that cam back to 112. You'll be close or over 1 HP per cid, with the combo you have now, likely 375 hp ish. However, in any case, more than any old F series came with!
The heads were fully machined before the first build so they are square. Don't know exactly how much was taken off, but I did measure the chamber volume.
So to confirm, you're recommending decking the block to get to whatever will achieve 10:1 and using the SAME cam I already have?
Thanks for all the input!
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Recommend is a hard word, LOL, but sometimes we have to do what we have to do, it'd makea nice driver and nothing is out of line here for a decent build.
Stock blocks always need to be cut, if you leaned on that one, it may be .020 in some places, but they are always crooked...make sure the machinist can square it up. Use a .041 head gasket, and end up .015 below deck, it'd be decent for quench, and likely get you ate close to 10:1, I wouldn't go over. You need to get a real number for the chambers and deck height though if you don't have it, and check both heads, they tend to be crooked too
After that, assuming you are stuck with the cam, retarding the SAME cam 4 degrees, to a 112 ICL, would get you in the ball park. It seems odd for a small cam to be retarded, and don't think I am telling you the cam is junk, but it is v ery short seat to seat. If you use it, and retard the cam, what you are really building here would be a blueprinted 416 inch "poor man CJ". The CJ cam actually was retarded even more and had slightly more LSA, but it also had a few more cubes
It'd be a nice driver and plenty more power than an old 390 or 360, but it won't have a lot of cam sound at 49 degrees overlap.
3 things though, and I probably would not build it without. 1 - headers and a dual exhaust with a crossover will help greatly, especially in a truck, 2 - have the distributor recurved, makes all the difference in drivability and part throttle, 3 - can the stock 4 barrel now and get an RPM intake or even a Streetmaster.
C6AE-C are 6.49, although I guess the correct number is 6.488 by some sources. If big bolt, would be a PI rods, but if 3/8 bolt, relatively common 390 rod, and fine for what you are doing
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The method I used for measuring the head chambers was to stick a piece of acrylic to the head with grease and then fill the chamber with water through a hole in the acrylic (using a dropper with markings every .25-.5CC if I recall). I repeated the measurement over multiple chambers, and they all came out to right at 74CC. I personally felt confident in this method, would you say this method is accurate?
If you were to change the cam, what would you change it to and would there be other things you'd consequently also change along with it? I am not 100% set on that cam, but of course having an already broken in and paid for cam is very appealing.
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Edit: RE: the books, i don't know that anyone ever cataloged the errors but many years ago on TOF it was believed that there were some errors in specs in this books that got recycled to other books. I tend to trust Barrys book and the Steve Christ book the most.
RE: the measurement, that's pretty standard procedure. My only concern is if you're refilling the dropper multiple times there's potential for inaccuracies there. SOP is a graduated burette. I personally would be concerned if my numbers came out way off expected or very uneven.
I don't have much else to add here but voice of experience.
Change the cam now if it is borderline for compression.
Ross or Brent or probably a few others can work from your numbers to grind a cam that will work better if it is needed.
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The method I used for measuring the head chambers was to stick a piece of acrylic to the head with grease and then fill the chamber with water through a hole in the acrylic (using a dropper with markings every .25-.5CC if I recall). I repeated the measurement over multiple chambers, and they all came out to right at 74CC. I personally felt confident in this method, would you say this method is accurate?
If you were to change the cam, what would you change it to and would there be other things you'd consequently also change along with it? I am not 100% set on that cam, but of course having an already broken in and paid for cam is very appealing.
Your method seems accurate if the dropper worked as it should, and since it was so repeatable, it sounds it.
I'd prefer to see you in a custom grind, something like 278-280 adv intake, and 10 degrees more exhaust or so However, would need to know more about the truck, use and fuel to lock it in.
Your cam really should do fine though at 112 if you ran a 1020 gasket and if the square deck allows it to stay at .015 below. On the high side of decent quench but manageable compression. If it needs to be cut more, then likely need to address it. Just as a public service announcement, this is why cam/heads first, compression second. Hard to back into use when hobbled by a compression number. That being said, you aren't far off, you are in a different boat than Duck
However, again, you need to really address intake and exhaust if you want to make some power. Exhaust and intake cost could easily be in the 50 HP range, even with a mild motor
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The truck is a 69 F100, 2wd, 3 speed manual. No towing or heaving hauling, just basic homeowner stuff on occasion. No drag racing. A fun street / hot rod that can and will be driven anywhere (no real expressway driving and no salt/winter). It will be "abused" - for lack of a better word - on occasion.
I'm okay with running mid grade to premium pump gas.
Given all of your guys' recommendations, I am committed to upgrading the intake and exhaust manifolds. I have an intake, but I have not yet bought headers. It already has dual 2.5" exhaust, but no crossover. I will consider adding that as I will have to modify the exhaust anyway for headers.
I am also leaning toward changing the cam as recommended.
I calculate 9.83:1 if I go with some of the recommendations here. Like I said, I'm having the machine shop measure the piston/deck clearance so I will have a more true number.
Bore (in) 4.08
Stroke (in) 3.98
Cylinder Vol (cuin) 52.03
Pist to Deck Clearance (in) 0.015
Clearance Vol (cuin) 0.20
Gasket Dia (in) 4.33
Gasket Thickness 0.041
Gasket Volume 0.60
Pist Comp Height (in) 1.66
Pist Volume (cc) 9.50
Pist Volume (cuin) 0.58
Combust Cham cc 74.00
Combust Cham (cuin) 4.52
Swept Volume (cuin) 52.03
Compressed Volume (cuin) 5.90
Compression Ratio 9.83
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It'd be nice to get you into a hydraulic roller to avoid break in issues, but as you source a cam, be sure to think about valve clearance.
Last Speedpro motor I did had inconsistent valve reliefs and with CJ valves, radial valve clearance was good, but very tight. In fact, I try to avoid those pistons, but when you do assembly, recommend mock up on both sides before final assembly to check valve clearance. We actually had to pair each head to a side for slightly more room.
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Hello everyone.
I finally got the machine work done, and I am starting the reassembly.
This is what was done by the shop:
-Honed cylinders with plates (had previously been bored 0.030")
-Crank fully ground and bearing clearances set
-Crank balanced
-Block decked, pistons are 0.012" below deck
-Aluminum intake machined to fit
-New cam bearings
I was planning to reuse my original cam shaft and lifters. I noticed this copper colored spot on my cam that I previously overlooked. I can not feel this spot. I've included a picture of the mating lifter.
I've also included some other pictures of the wear patterns on the cam lobes.
As a reminder, this is my second time building this engine. I had a rod bearing failure. I believe it was caused by lack of oiling mods, bearing clearances too tighten, and lack of cleanliness.
Is it possible that this copper is from the failed bearing? There certainly was copper in the oil. But I would think I would be able to feel it.
Thanks for any advice.
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I would have to guess it was a piece of bearing smudged into that low point.
Will it be OK? My gut tells me lots of crazy stuff will live and that it is likely not on the path of the lifter for now. However, I'd probably scratch at it lightly ot use a scotch brite pad or emory cloth to see if it comes off. An iron cam doesn't have copper in it, and I doubt even with heat and pressure dissimilar metals would have fused permanently
Would I run it on a customer's engine, absolutely not, would I in a temporary engine or something I had to get moving? Probably if it polished off
FYI - the oiling mods likely didn't cause your issue, but the other 2 reasons are very solid. A high RPM engine can benefit from the mods, but honestly, 90% of the street FE builds wouldn't know the difference. Be super clean this time, brushes, rifle barrel cleaner, pressure washer, whatever it takes
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I believe it was copper from the bearings. With a light touch from scotch brite, it came right off. First picture is the same spot on the same lobe.
The following pictures are of the rest of the same lobe. Any thoughts on those wear pattern? All the lobes look similar.
I agree on the cleanliness. I hand washed the block on 4 separate occasions using bottle brushes on a drill in every oil passage and bolt hole. Every cleaning was finished by blowing off the whole block and every passage with compressed air.
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Looks like a normal pattern to me, lifter is offset to spin and as weight increases at max lift the wear usually evens out.
I'd love to see you go modern hyd roller, but nothing there seems scary to me
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I have been working on this slowly as time allows. The short block is assembled, and I was checking piston to valve clearance.
Unfortunately, it looks like I have an issue with the intake valve.
-Crank gear set at 4 degrees retarded. In theory this is 112 degree intake centerline. I actually measure about 111.5 degrees, so within error.
-Using old head gasket for measurement. Thickness is 0.045". Just snugged head bolts
-Using checking springs with hyd flat lifters that are pumped up
-Intake valve is 2.09"
-Pistons are Silvolite 1139P
-Block was decked so pistons are 0.012" down according to machinist.
Hopefully pictures show the edge contact of the valve in the relief in the piston. It's the shiny spot. I repeated the process twice on the same cylinder, the pictures show each attempt.
Are there any suggestions/recommendations?
Thanks again for the advice and knowledge that is provided by this forum/members like this.