FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Boiler Ben on August 18, 2024, 02:49:25 PM
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I just test fit my front cover and am wondering how close the alignment with the oil pan surface of the block needs to be. I used the crank spacer to center it properly and the bolts went in fine. With the engine upside down, the front cover would sit about 0.060” taller than the block surface. I tried pushing it to be more level and was able to get it to about 0.024” but the crank spacer was visibly not centered so I would worry about it leaking. I will be using an Aviaid Cobra pan with windage tray. Any advice on what to do?
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Have to wonder if the block has been severely align bored (maybe multiple times). I have always just used the crank sleeve to center the seal, and rotated the timing cover so both sides were flush with the oil pan rails of the block. Hard to imagine that the crankshaft could be located up inside the block .060".Is it a factory Ford timing cover? If you really have to push the cover up that much, most likely the front seal will leak, only cure that I can think of, would be to machine the gasket surface of the timing cover, to make it flush with the block.
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That's a pretty big mismatch. If I understand your post the timing cover part of the rail is higher than the pan rail with the engine upside down, or lower if the engine is right side up. Makes me think that the oil pan surface of the block may have been cut.
I would leave the hole in the timing cover centered on the crank, but make sure you've got that right. Then I think I would use two oil pan gaskets, maybe cut one off where it goes to the timing cover, and lay the second one over the top. Use Milodon oil pan gaskets, you can glue those together with the Right Stuff or some other good RTV. It should seal up OK.
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You absolutely do not want to push the timing cover up to minimize the difference. Not only will it start to groove the spacer, but will wear out the seal quick and lead to a nasty leak. Keep it centered.
I think either Jay's or Rory's suggestions would work good. 2 gaskets being the easiest route, but milling the cover probably being the best...albeit more expensive route, unless you know someone with basic machining equipment.
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I don’t like using the balancer spacer to center the timing cover because the seal can sag under the weight of the timing cover. I use a solid centering tool that locates off the seal bore in the cover. I’ve never seen a mismatch of .060”. Sometimes I get a .010” or so mismatch but that’s easy to correct for with the gasket.
I’d redo the timing cover mounting and give it another shot.
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I am not sure of the history of this block. The cover is a new aftermarket one and aside from this, its dimensions seem to be right on the money. I will test it again and focus on getting the thing centered. I did notice the sag issue when I learned I could force the cover upward.
If the results are similar this time and I have 0.060” to make up, it sounds like I can take a gasket and cut the front section off and use this to fill the gap. Then put a whole gasket on top of that. Then the windage tray. Then another whole gasket. Then the oil pan. And use a very thin coat of Right Stuff between each layer of this Dagwood sandwich. Maybe a tiny bit extra at the joint where the cover meets the block, more towards the outside so it won’t squeeze out on the inside.
So 3 Milodon gaskets? Or just the one I need to cut and then cork for the other 2? Sounds like the Milodon ones might be hard to cut?
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Ahhh, I believe the new covers are made offshore. I wouldn't expect them to be dimensionally perfect.
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I guess it’s preferable to have the issue be the cover than something weird going on with the block. Does my plan sound OK? Reading about Milodon gaskets makes it sound like they’re indestructible. I’m assuming a razor or shear will make a clean cut??
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To be honest, I'd rather get the timing cover cut down if it's the timing cover's fault. I don't like the idea of stacking 3 gaskets.
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Ok, I think I found a machine shop that can do this. Any advice on how to get an accurate measurement of the amount to cut?
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Do It Once, And Do It Right. Take Brent And Rorys Advice And Get It Milled So The Surfaces Are Even. It Doesn't Cost That Much, Especially With The Cost Of Multiple Gaskets, The Cost Of Oil That Will Inevitably Leak And Need To Be Topped Off, Degreaser For Your Garage Floor Or Driveway, The Ridicule Of Your Friends Over Your 1/4" Thick Stack Of Leaking Cork Oil Pan Gaskets, Or Front Seal Slinging Oil All Over Your Other Expensive Engine Parts And Engine Bay, ETC , And, Eventually Having To Tear It Apart And Do It Over The Right Way. FE Doesnt Stand For "Cheap Out" If You Dont Have Tooling Like Brent Described, Do Some Measuring, And Make A Spacer To Center Up The Housing, Without The Seal Installed To The Crank. Also, Be Sure The Seal Is Installed From The Correct Direction. Mentioning That It Is Aftermarket Means There Are Possibilities It Is Not The Same As A Factory Cover. Good Luck, And Do Both You And Your Engine Proud...Do It Once And Do It Right!
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If You Have A Factory Cover, Line Them Up And Measure The Distance Between The Pan Flange And The Bottom Of The Casting Where The Seal Rides (Seal Removed, Ideally. This Should Get You In The Ballpark, Whatever The Difference Is, Remove That Much From The Bottom Of The New Cover. Align The Cover And Block When Re Assembling It, And You Should Be Good To Go. Another Way To Do It Would Be To, With The Seal Removed From The Cover, Bolt The Cover To The Block With The Flanges Lined Up, And Then Measure Between The Crankshaft Snout And The Timing Cover Seal Flange. The Difference Between The Measurement On The Top Of The Crank To The Flange, And The Measurement Between The Bottonm Of The Crank Flange And The Crank Snout Is How Much Needs To Be Removed From The Bottom Of The Timing Cover. This Should Be The Best Way To Do It, As It Allows For Any Amount The Block May Have Been Align Bored, Basically Making Your Cover Custom Fit To Your Block And Crank. Could Install The Balancer Spacer To Make The Measurements With As Well, Making The Surfaces Closer To Each Other And Easier To Get A Measurement From.
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OK, I’ll do it. Even if I have to replace the seal I just installed. Thanks for the advice on getting a good measurement. I’ll give it a try.
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Ok, I have an update. I was able to get some accurate measurements. On the cover, the dimension from the center of the hole to the bottom of the flange is 2.725”. For the engine, the distance from the center of the crank snout to the bottom of the block is 2.680”. So if I machine 0.045” from the bottom of the cover, then the crank snout should be perfectly centered and the flange should be perfectly flush.
I am curious if the issue is the cover or the engine. Does anyone have dimensions on their engines from the center of the crank snout to the bottom of the block? I want to see what is normal.
The cover flange is currently 0.2315” thick. If I machine 0.045” from the bottom, it will be 0.1865”. There should be enough threads and the bolt torque is low. But will the thinner flange be too flimsy?
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You Are Off To A Great Start To Get Things Lined Up. The Distance You Ask About Will Vary From Engine To Engine Due To How Much, And If Ever An Engine Has Been Line Bored. Also, Though Not So Common, If The Pan Rails Have Been Squared. To Make Things A Bit Stronger On The Thinner Mounting Flange, Get Some Appropriate Length Studs, And Use Nuts To Tighten The Pan And Cover Together. Less Risk Of Pulling The Threads Out Or Stripping Them. The Gasket(s) Will Act As A Sort Of Cushion, So It Doesn't As You Said Have To Be Extreeme Torqued.
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Ben---
I noticed in your post above a reference to the 'bolt torque' of the pan to the front cover.
When I worked at T&C Livonia, I was, very peripherally, involved in an engineering study of bolt torque values where a compressible gasket was involved. The conclusion from the study was that there really is no such thing as a sustained torque value under such conditions due to the infinite 'give' of the gasket material. I agree on the suggestion, above, of the use of studs. (I make them from stainless 'all-thread'.) And a small 'oomph' is just right when using a 3/8ths-drive socket and ratchet. ;)
KS
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The cover is back from the machine shop. They took off 0.045 from the flange and it looks perfect.