FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Porkchop on July 02, 2024, 09:24:27 AM
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Hello,
I am new to the forum, but I have been reading on here for a while and been a member other related forums.
I have a 69 F100 with a Mercury 410 that is overheating. I've had the truck for 22 years, and it had a 360 until last summer. It never overheated with the 360, and it never overheated with the 410 until I did the work below:
-Built engine myself. Installed August, 2023.
-Ran great for <500 miles. No overheating. Have both the stock temp gauge and an Autometer gauge. Then I started here a tick/knock I didn't like
-Removed intake manifold to inspect lifters/cam (everything looked good)
-Decided to replace the stock S intake with an aluminum intake. I know this won't be popular, but I decided on the Chinese knockoff that you see on Amazon/ebay/etc.
-New 180 deg thermostat (smaller diameter to fit new manifold)
-New upper radiator hose
After doing the above lifter inspection / manifold swap, it is now overheating.
Engine details:
410 bored to 416
Stock style cast pistons (new),
Original rods and crank
C6AE-R heads w/ CJ valves
Chinese aluminum intake
Felpro factory style head gasket
Mild Howard's cam
Stock distributor with Pertronix
Stock exhaust manifolds
Estimated compression: 9.6 static, 7.9 dynamic
Base timing is about 12 degrees, however I have tried a variety of timing trying to find a balance between cold start and detonation. Regardless, it never resulted in running hot.
Boiled the new thermostat and swapped in the old thermostat from my 360 (which I also boiled). There is no issue going to the smaller diameter thermostat, right? The original 1966 S manifold that I took off had the larger diameter thermostat.
There is no mixing of coolant and oil.
Maybe the problem is that Chinese manifold? But I can't think of how? I can not find any feedback on those manifolds whatsoever. I do feel guilty buying it, I won't pretend I made the moral choice. But allow me to be the guinea pig if it is the issue. Is there some common issue when going to an alunimum intake that I am missing?
Thanks for any help!
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Is it overheating at idle or driving down the road or both? What temps are you seeing on the gauge now, compared to before?
Pat
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It will overheat both at idle and driving. I can't go 2 miles down the road. It is not hitting a steady temperature. The gauge has every intention of going all the way, but I am shutting it off before that can happen. It is also dieseling when I shut it off.
Prior to the overheating issue, it was running at about 190 F - whether driving or idling. Now it is hitting 230, but like I said I am shutting if off. That is a bit of an estimate because I don't have the Autometer Gauge connected with this new manifold - it doesn't have 2 ports. I am going off the factory gauge and temperature sensor which I do know work well, there just aren't any numbers on the gauge.
I will work on getting the autometer connected.
Also, it is quite cool outside - highs in the mid 60's.
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Sounds like radiator May be plugged ? Or something blocking the water flow?
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Yeah, that's all I can think of is something blocked at the two faces of the intake (gasket problem?) or the thermostat area if the basics are in place (full radiator, fan and belt okay, etc). There must be other people running these intakes that would have mentioned if the water passages were blocked.
Pat
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Is the thermostat opening? New stat, smaller diameter, it may be defective, or there may be geometry in the new intake that is preventing it from opening, perhaps installed backwards?
When it gets hot, are the rad tanks hot too? If the rad is cool, you definitely have a blockage.
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If it gets hot that quickly the thermostat should be opening, so if you start the engine cold with the cap off the radiator you should see some flow in the radiator once it hits 180 degrees. If you don't, there is some blockage. Thermostat installed backwards maybe?
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You may need to pull the intake and check the coolant passages. Since that's the one major part you changed, I would be very suspicious. There could be a big chunk of slag in there.
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I have the same radiator, fan, and water pump as when it was not overheating.
Thermostat is definitely in correct direction. I boiled the first thermostat to confirm it opened at 180F. I then took the known good thermostat from my 360, boiled it (it opened at 180F), and then installed it. It actually opened wider than the first thermostat so I thought that was going to be it. Nope.
I was wondering if I blocked off flow, but I don't see how. I used a Fel Pro gasket set with water passages on both ends so even if I could manage to install them backwards it wouldn't matter.
Perhaps the water passage in the manifold is blocked as mentioned? Maybe I could try to fish a coat hanger through the thermostat hole? I am not yet ready to rip the manifold off.
I will start it cold and watch for flow in the radiator as suggested. I'm 99% sure the radiator tanks are getting hot, but I will check that too. Maybe later today.
The manifold does not have an exhaust crossover. I did not cap the holes on the head, but from what I'm told that is ok. Is this correct?
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The manifold does not have an exhaust crossover. I did not cap the holes on the head, but from what I'm told that is ok. Is this correct?
You should be fine if there's no intake passage. The intake gasket can typically handle sealing that.
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Could it have trapped air does the stat have a bleed hole
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I was wrong about there not being coolant in the oil. The dip stick was reading a bit high today so I drained the oil, and the first bit was water/coolant. Trying to separate it to see how much.
Obviously, I will have to remove the manifold to figure out the problem. Perhaps I messed up the gasket install or maybe there's an issue with the manifold. We'll see how motivated I am.
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The driver's side coolant port in the manifold is totally blocked off. It's not even slag, it's 100% blocked off. It's not flush with the gasket surface, but inset. I will see if I can post pictures.
Do not buy these manifolds.
Given that these things are everywhere, I'm surprised nobody has reported on this.
I do not know yet how the coolant was getting in the oil. Upon removing the valve covers I saw coolant resting at the very back of the manifold by the rear most bolt holes. After removing the manifold there was coolant in the lifter valley. I can't say for certain that this didn't happen when I removed the manifold. I drained the block, but I know that doesn't 100% clear the manifold of coolant.
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Looking forward to the pictures. What I suspect is that the sand core for the water jacket cracked or broke when the sand mold was assembled. This will leave a "fin" of aluminum in the water passage after the manifold is poured, blocking the flow. If that's what the problem turns out to be, the fin is usually pretty thin, and you should be able to take a punch and break through it, and clear out the passage. Then the manifold will be usable.
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How about head gaskets on backwards if the intake port doesn’t fix it.
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Here is a picture.
It ran well before the manifold swap so I know it isn't a head gasket issue. maybe now after the overheating there's an issue, but not before.
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Water flows from water pump outlets into block and comes up to the back of the head on each side
It enters the head at the deck and flows forward to the front of the head
It enters the intake manifold at the front and simply funnels toward the bypass and thermostat from each side.
For the intake to be an issue, it would have to be blocking that last step. All of which you could easily see with removal or maybe through thermostat housing and fish something through to head.
If your rear ports are blocked, it's not an issue, if your front ports are...there's the issue. I'd take a drill to the thing if that's the case. Use the gasket as a template and make the passage.
Probably seems like a good idea to have the intake surfaced too.
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Tried to take some better pictures. Second picture is cast iron manifold. If you right click the picture and select "open in new tab" the size is better. At least for me.
There were actually 2 small holes in this "wall" (1/16") that were letting water pass when I filled it with water. So I broke it out a bit further with a punch. But it will take more than a punch to get it all out and the walls smooth as intended.
Additionally, if I do grind it out so that the walls are smooth the port will be smaller in comparison to the S cast iron manifold. Maybe this is normal? Is this how the Edelbrocks are (which this manifold is a rip off of.
I need to do more investigation to determine how water entered the oil. Would the blockage cause back pressure that would overcome the manifold or head gaskets? The manifold gaskets aren't blown out, but I will further inspect.
I'm not sure what I trust at this point.
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Thanks for the pics, that is a typical fin left from a broken water jacket core. I would break the rest of that out of there as best you can, and run it. You won't have any problems. The size of the water passage through the intake is not that critical. In fact, with some manifolds like injector manifolds that have a braided steel line coming out of each side and into a remote thermostat housing, a #8 AN line is more than sufficient for cooling. That is a 1/2" inside diameter line, maybe 2 feet long, to feed water through a racing-oriented engine. Just bust that fin out of there with a punch and you should be good to go - Jay
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My real concern from info revealed in your photos is the porosity of every feature that is visible on the casting. I can tell you from experience that is NOT a FEPower casting and needs to be pressure checked everywhere it is exposed to coolant.
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Are we looking at the rear of the intake or the front? Just want to make sure as the rear ports don't connect on most American V-8s
BTW, EVERY FE intake is crooked. If you have water flowing correctly, you may still need a couple cuts. I also agree that a pressure test before that is owrth it, all easy for a machine shop
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All pictures are of the front, driver's side port. The front, passenger's side is clear. There are no rear ports.
I agree, I am suspicious of the rest of the manifold given this issue.
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Thanks for the pics, that is a typical fin left from a broken water jacket core. I would break the rest of that out of there as best you can, and run it. You won't have any problems. The size of the water passage through the intake is not that critical. In fact, with some manifolds like injector manifolds that have a braided steel line coming out of each side and into a remote thermostat housing, a #8 AN line is more than sufficient for cooling. That is a 1/2" inside diameter line, maybe 2 feet long, to feed water through a racing-oriented engine. Just bust that fin out of there with a punch and you should be good to go - Jay
When you say this is typical, do you mean typical of any aftermarket aluminum FE intake or any aftermarket intake in general?
My concern at this point is the quality of the rest of the manifold. Another issue I had with it was that the distributor hole was not on center. However, I've seen that is common with the Edelbrocks which this is obviously a copy of.
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My real concern from info revealed in your photos is the porosity of every feature that is visible on the casting. I can tell you from experience that is NOT a FEPower casting and needs to be pressure checked everywhere it is exposed to coolant.
I know that it is not an FEpower part. Maybe it's inappropriate for me to post this here... This is the only forum where I found these manifolds mentioned so I thought maybe someone had tried them out.
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Maybe the intake is warped as well? Take a steel straightedge and with a feeler gauge, check both sides from end to end and top to bottom (length wise and height wise).
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Thanks for the pics, that is a typical fin left from a broken water jacket core. I would break the rest of that out of there as best you can, and run it. You won't have any problems. The size of the water passage through the intake is not that critical. In fact, with some manifolds like injector manifolds that have a braided steel line coming out of each side and into a remote thermostat housing, a #8 AN line is more than sufficient for cooling. That is a 1/2" inside diameter line, maybe 2 feet long, to feed water through a racing-oriented engine. Just bust that fin out of there with a punch and you should be good to go - Jay
When you say this is typical, do you mean typical of any aftermarket aluminum FE intake or any aftermarket intake in general?
My concern at this point is the quality of the rest of the manifold. Another issue I had with it was that the distributor hole was not on center. However, I've seen that is common with the Edelbrocks which this is obviously a copy of.
No, not typical in a good casting, just typical in a defect. The water jacket core is made of sand and is long, curved, and narrow on FEs, and it can easily be cracked or broken if handled improperly at the foundry. If cracked, the force of 30-40 pounds of aluminum being poured rapidly into the mold may be enough to break it entirely, resulting in a fin like you have seen on your manifold.
Pressure checking would be a good idea, but the presence of porosity itself doesn't necessarily mean that you have a leaker. To get a general idea you can seal up the thermostat housing hole and one side of the water jacket opening with duct tape, spray the area with soapy water and blow compressed air into the other water jacket opening. Even with the minimal pressure that this provides you will see bubbles in the soapy water if there is a significant leak. You would have to fully pressurize the water jacket passage with 30 PSI or more to find any very small leaks, but doing it the quick and dirty way will tell you if you have a junk intake.
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I put a straight edge across the manifold ports (straight across ports and angled up/down) and measured at most 0.003" around cylinder 3's and 7's port. That was going straight across. Angled it was less than 0.002".
I could not get a 0.001" feeler around the water ports.
I am crudely trying to measure the angle of the manifold with a square. It's less than 90 degrees, but visually appears the same as the S manifold. I will use a feeler gauge to try to put a finer point on it.
I will consider rigging up some type of system to do a pressure test.
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I rigged up a pressure test on the water jackets in the manifold and found no leaks.
I blocked off the ports with steel, rtv, and some clamps. Supplied compressed air through the bypass port. Went up to 60psi. I sprayed the manifold with soapy water, and I submerged the manifold under water. I found no leaks (except for my homemade block off plates).
There is wetness between the heads and the intake gaskets. It is both oil and coolant. There was wetness in various places across the head, but notably around #1 and #8 coolant ports. I know coolant doesn't flow into the manifold around 4 and 8.
I can not say whether this would have happened when I removed the manifold. Like I said, I drained the block, but I know some coolant came out of the manifold when I lifted it.
Earlier I was wondering whether the plugged manifold port would cause high pressure which would cause the gaskets to leak. But that wouldn't really be the case, would it? There was still flow on the passenger's side and through the bypass so pressure should be the same everywhere in the system.
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Pic #1 - Coolant port near #8
Pic #2 - Coolant port near #1 in gasket
Pic #3 - Coolant port near #1 in head
Pic #4 - Passenger's side gasket. You can see wetness around #2 intake port. The coolant port by #4 looks dry
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Sounds like you have no issue with leaks in the manifold. Can't tell from your pictures but did you use RTV around the water jacket ports of the gasket, on both sides? If not, that could explain the water leaks. I would recommend a good RTV around all the ports on both sides also.
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I did not put sealant around the water ports, but I will do so whichever way I go. I hadn't done that with the stock manifolds on this engine or my 360 so I assumed wrong. I see now that it is a recommendation.
I set manifold back on with no gaskets and the driver's side of the manifold sits above the head by 0.013" and the passenger's side sits below the head by 0.073". The back is the same as the front. I'll post pictures.
Placing the same gaskets back in and resting the manifold in place, on the driver's side the manifold is 0.070" high. Manifold is about 0.030" higher on the passenger's side.
I am going to go along with feeler gauge and measure the gap.
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Pics
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See if you can look at port alignment, could even be the casting that is making the edges high
However, if it's sitting level at the china wall and that crooked, I'd likely clean up the low side with a light cut to square it, and lean on the other. Probably .050
Then it'd be square and you could use a thick gasket like the blue Felpro and get it all back in alignment
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I will try to look at port alignment.
The China wall is relatively even. Maybe 0.002" smaller gap on passenger's side with no gaskets in place.
I used feeler gauges to check gap between head and manifold. On passenger's side, I could get a 0.015" gauge about halfway down all across the length of the manifold. On driver's side, I can get 0.003" toward the very front, and 0.0012" near the #8 port.
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The factory S manifold valve cover gasket surface sits 0.040" lower than the heads on both sides in the front. And 0.027" lower in the back. So it is even left to right with some difference front to rear. And the gasket should lift it up to be flush.
Measuring the gap between the S manifold and the head, I can put a 0.017" gauge about halfway down all along the passenger's side. On the driver's side it is touching at the very front, 0.006" around #5 port, 0.009" around #6, and 0.014" around 7 and 8. So it is pretty similar to the aluminum intake.
China wall gaps also similar:
Cast iron 0.070"
Aluminum 0.070"
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Pictures. Pictures make it look different side to side, but it's not.