FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Diogenes on June 11, 2024, 07:19:09 PM
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I had previously assumed I had a timing jump during a moderately heavy-ish run over the weekend. I had to have the Galaxie brought home on a flatbed, the first time in the 10 years I've owned it--bummer.
I left a stop sign under fairly heavy throttle, not to the floor, but I was getting into that neighborhood. Going through the gears was fine, but went into 4th, probably in the 4000-4500rpm range, and all of a sudden the car fell on its face, big loss of power but still running. It was still screaming out the pipes, but it sounded very labored and "not right", like I dropped a cylinder or two. It happeded at around 70-75MPH. I dropped down to around 50, still running but "not good". Checked gauges--oil was still 50-55psi, but coolant temp was getting hot--210 and climbing. No smoke, no unusal noises except out of the exhaust. Had to slow for a stop sign at an intersection, but was able to roll through, trying to keep momentum going--it didn't want to idle and had to keep goosing the throttle (I was only 5 miles from home). On the other side of the intersection it became clear I wouldn't make it home--temp was over 220 and I shut it down.
Upon getting home, I thought the rotor in the cap was off from where it should be, but I may have mis-read that. I pulled off the timing cover with the engine at TDC and my marks are lined up--no timing jump. Gears and chain look good. Rotor a bit off, but probably correct/near correct for my 16deg initial. Pulled the distributor--it looks good. I'm at a loss here. I was running a bit lean, but not to the extreme. Instant power loss and overheating sent me to look at timing, but it seems OK. Fuel pump working. I'm leaning in the direction of ignition problems, but still at the brain-storming phase--Any thoughts?
It has a Pertronix in it, anyone ever have one fail under load?
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I wonder if it sucked a bit of trash into the carb or fuel filter when you gave it a boot full of gas? Was your radiator still full with water? or did it push a bunch out into an overflow or on the ground?
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The overflow has a relief hole in the top, and it blew a bunch out. Car wouldn't start back up, popped out the carb once.
I first looked at my valve springs, since I recently replaced a broken spring. All looked OK.
Wondering about head gasket as well, compression into coolant? I'm still leaning on timing and ignition, but a compression test/leakdown may be in the near future.
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Cam dowel sheared off?
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Hmm pull some plugs and read them see if any anti freeze on them or a tinge of green. How does it idle is it missing or running rough.
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The overflow has a relief hole in the top, and it blew a bunch out. Car wouldn't start back up, popped out the carb once.
I first looked at my valve springs, since I recently replaced a broken spring. All looked OK.
Wondering about head gasket as well, compression into coolant? I'm still leaning on timing and ignition, but a compression test/leakdown may be in the near future.
I was more just trying to think of why it got so hot all of a sudden
Galaxiex could be onto somthing with the cam dowel.
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Plugs are fine, show a little lean, but that's it. Cam dowel fine--dots on gears still lined up.
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You said you pulled dizzy and looked fine. But if the drive pin sheared it would still look ok. This would usually result in the dizzy not spinning at all (ask me how I know) but maybe it sheared and somehow picked up in a few degrees? Just grasping at stuff.
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You said you pulled dizzy and looked fine. But if the drive pin sheared it would still look ok. This would usually result in the dizzy not spinning at all (ask me how I know) but maybe it sheared and somehow picked up in a few degrees? Just grasping at stuff.
After seeing the timing gears being fine, this was exactly what I thought, so I pulled the distributor, but all appears to be fine there as well. I'm focused on a timing event being the cause, but this may be an incorrect assumption.
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Compression test and try another dist. or put a set of point in this
one and test if the pertronix failed
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It didn't throw the fan belt at high RPM, did it?
Pat
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I agree with 66FAIRLANE. Look more closely at the distributor gear and the pin. I had one shear and then lock in a new position on the shaft. Same symptoms.
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I'd be looking for a severe vacuum leak. Split hose, or hose off, or cracked nipple. Carburetor firmly bolted down. That sort of stuff. Reason being is that a mixture that goes lean will cause a slow burn and that heats the exhaust port which causes overheating.
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In instances such as this always start with the basics and begin to systematically rule possibilities either in or out, and start with the big stuff first! ;)
Start with a compression & leak-down test............ yes both! :)
Scott.
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I have seen failed head gaskets cause all sorts of wonky symptoms (former Subaru owner...). Perhaps, it burned through hard enough on one or two cylinders to force combustion gases into the coolant, giving you the illusion of overheating, but also draws coolant in during the intake stroke, essentially quenching any combustion and giving you the loss of power.
Combustion and Leak Down like the others were saying.
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Did you actually check to see if the rotor was seated properly and try to push it down?
I took a buddies 462 and showed him "what I built it to do" LOL and after a hard 2-3 shift, it did much like your and I initially thought I broke it. Turns out the rotor was slightly loose on the shaft and lifted. I gave it a good once over, pushed it down and life was good for years. Ultimately, we put a new tighter rotor on it but I would make sure.
And yes, I may not have showed it, but I did miss a heartbeat or two when I thought I broke his engine after some bravado about not being afraid to let it eat....LOL
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You'd think after all these years, acquiring all these hard-earned lessons, that I'd actually remember those hard-earned lessons ;D ALWAYS START AT THE BASICS! :o So I will re-assemble the front of the engine and go back to basics. At least this isn't wasted time, as the radiator needs a proper cleaning and the front of the engine could use some detailing as well, and I have learned a few things (hopefully I'll remember what I learned the next time).
Fuel or spark seem likely. The head gasket issue came to mind also.
A gasket set is on its way, and then I can continue with the puzzle.
It is a pain in the ass when these things happen, but as long as its not an excessively expensive problem, tracking down the cause and correcting it can be an enjoyable experience--I just hope I'll still be thinking that when this is resolved.
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Since all you have done, has checked out good, here is a pretty easy test you can do, loosen the bolts that the header flange, both sides or at the collector, if headers and see if it will start and run.
When I was a mechanic, I had a Buick come in with no power and over heating, after a lot of head scratching, to turned out to be that the muffler had pluged up.
As for the head gasket, pull all the plugs and have someone spin the engine over. Check for moisture or water coming from a cyl, another easy check but it could have been just over heating that caused it to blow the water.
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UPDATE:
Buttoned the timing cover up and all back together. Timing is set at TDC for the time being.
Pulled carb and gave it a good cleaning and put it back together, nothing appeared out of order, got it back together (rebuilt it about a month ago). Tried starting the car, same issue, it ran, sort of, but wouldn't idle so shut it off after maybe a minute. Every exhaust port on exhaust manifolds had similar heat, so seems to be combustion in each cylinder.
Performed compression test, all cylinders around 140-145lbs. I've not done a leakdown yet. May swap carbs, but all I've got is an old Edelbrock 750 on the shelf and not sure of it's condition.
Had a spare set of new ignition wires on the shelf, swapped them out--no change.
Pumped probably 10-12 oumces of fuel into a jar and let it sit for a while, looking for possible water contamination, but nothing separated out after about 20-30 minutes.
Seems like carb/fuel issue or possible valve issue (don't appear to be any broken springs). Still investigating....
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Unless you have a lot over overlap on that cam I think 140 is a little on the low side. I’m thinking around 175-180. I could be wrong.
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With 140 psi compression test - perhaps the cam was installed one tooth off on the timing chain - this could certainly cause
a low compression test - if the tooth was off retarding the camshaft.
Just a thought to explore.
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I wasn't sure how many times I needed to crank on the test, so I saw 140-150 after a few cranks and stopped. According to an article I read, "A 9:1 compression ratio cylinder is compressing the air and fuel mixture to about 132 psi at sea level". My engine is just short of 10:1, but I've seen some different info as wll. When performed, the engine was cold of course. The cylinders were all similar. Perhaps I need to re-test.
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Compression tests are of a comparator nature, solely relative to the singular engine at hand, and there are many factors that are at play in providing the resultant number. The important thing is to be consistent in ones' execution so as any variable in the the numbers represented provide an indicator of the functionality of the engine at hand. ;)
The 140-145, and being consistent across the board is more than ample to provide reasonable driveability including idle operation, so a "retest" wouldn't be warranted if the only concern were the number value, again consistency is what one is looking for. Compression testing is generally only going to be indicative of gross cylinder pressure lossage, and I have experienced instances where the compression test resulted in no significant signal of an issue, but then following up with a leak-down test revealed a problem; though admittedly for the level of difficulty you seem to be experiencing in the driveability one would have anticipated if it were the result of a cylinder leakage issue, that the compression test would have shown an issue, and then normally one then utilizes the leak-down test to better define the potential problem. :)
Scott.
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Agree it doesn't sound like compression
However, why the TDC for timing? I'd likely verify your timing mark is correct with a piston stop. Set static timing to something correct after verifying marks, then fire it and see if it's stable and correct. Also look and see if it behaves different with vacuum advance if equipped.
Look at rotor, rotor button, cap button, Ohm all wires, could also be a shorted pickup. Just check one thing at a time, but rule out spun balancer and look for stable timing with a light
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TDC is not a good timing setting for anything, set it at 15 base timing for testing
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Always Hesitant To Offer Suggestions, Usually A Big Waste Of Time, As No One Listens, Only Argue And Disagree. The Guys On This Forum Have Stepped Up And Done A Good Job With Suggestions Pertaining To Your Problem. No One, However, Has Suggested Checking The Running And Cranking Voltage Supplied To The Ignition Coil/Pertronix. Im Sure The Response Will Be "Its 110 % Perfect, New Wiring, Not Related,Etc" But Its A Whole Lot Easier To Check The Basics Than Tear The Front Or Heads Off Your Engine. For Arguments Sake, Lets Assume Its Pretty Much Original Wiring Harness And Wiring To The Coil. I Believe You Mentioned That It Is A Galaxie, Meaning It Has At Least 60 Year Old Resistor Wiring In The Ignition Circut, And The Ignition Switch Has Probably Been Turned On And Off More Than A Few Times. Pretty Good Chance That It Is NOT Getting The Proper, Or Consistant Voltage Through The Ancient Switch And Resistor Wire. I Will NOT Get Into The Discussion On How Many Volts A Pertronix Requires To Operate Efficiently, But, It Should Be Easy To Get Out The Volt Meter And See What Is Supplied At The Coil. (Engine Off, Cranking, And Running) Do An OHM Test Between The Distributor Housing And Engine Block While You Have The Meter Out. Pertronix Picks Up Its Ground Through The Distributor Housing (Make SURE The Small Ground Strap In The Distributor That Connects The Former Breaker Plate To The Mounting Screw Is Present) It Not Unheard Of For There To Be A High Degree Of Resistance (Poor Ground) Between The Distributor Housing And Block) Hot Wireing The Coil Will Also Be A Quick Way To Determine If Ignition Voltage Is A Possible Culpret. While Pertronix Is A Decent, And Relatively Trouble Free Ignition Setup, They Have Been known To Have Issues Like You Described And are Experiencing. They Will Start And Run, But Not Run Well, And Fire The Coil At Less Than Optimum Timing. They Are Like Any Other Part, They Can And Do Fail. It Was Suggested To Switch To Points To Trouble Shoot The Issue. ALways A Good Idea To Carry A Set And A Condensor In The Glovebox) Why Not Order A New Pertronix Unit, And, After Verifying Proper Voltage At The Coil, Install It And See How It Runs. Worse Case Is You Would Have A Spare Unit To Carry In The Glovebox. Easier Than Changing And Setting Up Points In 90 Degree Heat or Pouring Rain. People Always Comment On How Much Better And Smoother Their Engine Runs After Installing A Pertronix,And, They Usually Do. Who Is To Say A Bad Or Defective One Cant Make It Run Worse? (Trust Me, They CAN)
You Also Could Have Got A Bad Tank Of Gas, Which Is Not Out Of The Ordinary These Days. Just Another Possibility/Suggestion To Check. Also, Please Give Some Consideration To The Suggestions Above About Low Cranking Compression. It Sounds Like It Is A LOT Lower Than One Would Expect. Possibly When The Engine Was Built, A 71 And Newer Timing Set Was Used ( A Set With The Built In Emission/ Retarded Lower Gear.) Those Are Usually Identified By The Timing Mark/Dot And The Key Way Slot Not Being 100% Lined Up) It Is A Small, But Noticable Difference, That Has A BIG Impact On Performance, Fuel Economy, Etc. Makes A Gelding Out Of A Stallion. Use Of The Later Style/Emission Timing Set Results In Lower Than Optimal Compression Numbers. If They Were All Pretty Much The Same, When You Did The Compression Test, Then You Were Most Likely Doing The Test Correctly. On The Very Possible Chance That The Emission Timing Set Found Its Way Into Your Engine, Then Its Discovery May Be The Silver Lining To The Current Issue That You May Not Have Recognized, And You Can Change It Out Sometime, Or The Next Time The Engine Is Apart. It WOULD Be/Is Worth Your Time To Correct. JMHO
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Compression tests are of a comparator nature, solely relative to the singular engine at hand, and there are many factors that are at play in providing the resultant number. The important thing is to be consistent in ones' execution so as any variable in the the numbers represented provide an indicator of the functionality of the engine at hand. ;)
The 140-145, and being consistent across the board is more than ample to provide reasonable driveability including idle operation, so a "retest" wouldn't be warranted if the only concern were the number value, again consistency is what one is looking for. Compression testing is generally only going to be indicative of gross cylinder pressure lossage, and I have experienced instances where the compression test resulted in no significant signal of an issue, but then following up with a leak-down test revealed a problem; though admittedly for the level of difficulty you seem to be experiencing in the driveability one would have anticipated if it were the result of a cylinder leakage issue, that the compression test would have shown an issue, and then normally one then utilizes the leak-down test to better define the potential problem. :)
Scott.
Your comments align with what research I've done, though I'm no professional. When doing my compression test, I just tried to use a consistant amount of cranking. The first cylinder I got to around 145 and stopped, and kept repeating on all remaining cylinders. I could've kept cranking, and it would probably have kept climbing. I was just trying to be as consistant as possible during my test.
There are some indicators that it may be a carburetor issue, but I don't have a known good carb to toss on it at the moment. At present, I need to walk away from it for a while. The high heat and my growing frustration is not a good combination. I will definitely update findings once I continue; that is a pet peeve of mine, doing research on an issue and finding people who have posted with similar problems, but never provided their findings and what resolved the issue.
Other suggestions are on my radar as well.
Timing is at TDC simply because I had it apart and it has yet to run properly to adjust timing to the 16 degrees initial I had it set at originally.
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i had a problem hard to figure out.car was getting hot under heavy throttle.could not figure out why till i raised the hood and revved the engine.it was sucking the bottom radiator hose shut when i gave it throttle causing overheating and misfire.i put a spring out of a flex hose in the bottom hose and it fixed it
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At present, I need to walk away from it for a while. The high heat and my growing frustration is not a good combination. I will definitely update findings once I continue; that is a pet peeve of mine, doing research on an issue and finding people who have posted with similar problems, but never provided their findings and what resolved the issue.
Other suggestions are on my radar as well.
Yes, I can understand one becoming frustrated in chasing these sorts of drivability issues, but like I suggested just start with the simple big stuff, rule one possibility out at a time and work your way to narrowing it down, in a systematic process, this rather than jumping around chasing every suggested possibility as stated on the internet and ending up just chasing your tail! Remember the basics and the value in the statement of: if you've got compression (pistons going up & down, valves open & close, and you've captured the atmosphere in the cylinder under pressure, all of which you seem to have established), then if you've got fuel and air with a spark, you''ll have fire! ::)
But yeah, we can keep throwing out possibilities all day, but that's just not how one generally succeeds at addressing driveability problems most effectively, ................really. :)
Scott.
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I would probably triple check that distributor gear. I now recall running on that lost timing. Reset it (thought the hold down was loose) and it did the same thing - ran OK then retarded after a couple pulls. Turned out like the previous guy noted - pin sheared and it kind locked into a new location, until load came up and it turned some more. Looked perfectly OK from the outside.
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I would do a leak down test first. Or some way to pressurize the system. The coolant deal bugs me...that is a sign of compression into the system and will cause a hot issue fast.
It would most like not show up with fluid in a cylinder or in the oil.....seen it on newer stuff a lot.
If that checked out I would do the below.....but move the checking of voltage on the ignition to the top of the list.
I would pop the valve covers if you have not and spin it over. Make sure all looks well. If nothing is of concern, button it up. If not dig deeper. Timing is timing......keep that in mind. If you are 100% on the timing chain/cam dowel then do not worry again with that. Agree 100% to check the dizzy again...put pressure on it and make sure it is all working correctly, i.e. not a broke shaft, rotor, gear. If vac advance, disconnect it on re-installation and make sure the lever is not hung or something adding too much timing...this should have showed with a light. Initial around 15 BTDC. 100% check your voltage at the dizzy and coil, and check your grounds. If any of that is off to a certain degree the pertonix will act up exactly how you stated.....which points back to your original thought of fuel or fire. If the car was fine I would not expect it to be the carb.....even if it blew the PV the symptoms are not lining up. It could be a massive vacuum leak ...you can check that as well easily. Cover all the simple stuff before pulling the intake and heads.
Just my .02. Wish you luck and keep us posted.
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I finally have it running again. While I was swapping my carb out the other day, with what ultimately was a worn out carb, I noticed my Holley leaked fuel in an odd manner, and noticed the base gasket on the manifold wet on the side. I decided to disassemble, clean, and re-assemble the carb tonight. After getting it back together, it wanted to run, but I needed to adjust the timing a bit. After a couple distributor adjustments, I was up and running. I put the timing light on it and got it back to the 16 degrees I've been running.
At present, it seems it may have been a gasket issue between the main body and the base plate of the carb. This was replaced during my rebuild about a month-month and a half ago. I didn't see anything out of the ordinary with the gasket, but swapped it out for the old one I removed. I suspect this may have been the culprit, but I've not had it up and running long enough to be entirely confident in this diagnosis. The gear on the distributor still sticks in my mind, though I've not been able to get it to move outside it's normal function.
Certainly, if the carb was sucking air it could have caused all of the issues--loss of power and overheating caused by a lean mixture--still, it's sudden onset has me wondering, though. I suppose everything has a tipping point, yet I'd have thought a little more subtle indication of an issue would've shown itself prior to it's sudden and rather dramatic failure. Admittedly, the plugs showed it running a little leaner than it was prior to the carb rebuild--but it wasn't much. I chalked it up to fresh rebuild. I even bumped the jets a bit while I was in it again, just to be safe.
Well, it will have some driveway idle and close by running for a while--before I'm comfortable with a road trip again, once I re-seal these damn Cobra Le Mans valve covers--they sure are pretty, but the gaskets like to walk/deform.
I do appreciate all the thoughts and suggestions everyone offered. This website has been a great source of knowledge for the last 10 years I've had the Galaxie--with my first FE.
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Your problem of the baseplate to main body leakage is fairly common. It leaks from the fuel transfer passage that the base plate has going from the primary to the secondary. The main body warps at the 3 side screws on each side preventing a tight seal. The base gasket will look like it is compressed normally by 'reading' the imprint but after some time it loses some of its compression. Other problems related to this is it can affect the power valve passage seal at the baseplate as well as sucking air at the idle feed and transfer slot. I had this problem on an #1850 that's on my F-250 P/U
when I shut the engine off it would then leak raw fuel from the carb base as you described. Standard procedure on every Holley I rebuild is that main body base gets milled as well as both metering block surfaces.
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Your problem of the baseplate to main body leakage is fairly common. It leaks from the fuel transfer passage that the base plate has going from the primary to the secondary. The main body warps at the 3 side screws on each side preventing a tight seal. The base gasket will look like it is compressed normally by 'reading' the imprint but after some time it loses some of its compression. Other problems related to this is it can affect the power valve passage seal at the baseplate as well as sucking air at the idle feed and transfer slot. I had this problem on an #1850 that's on my F-250 P/U
when I shut the engine off it would then leak raw fuel from the carb base as you described. Standard procedure on every Holley I rebuild is that main body base gets milled as well as both metering block surfaces.
I did see a few comments online regarding this issue, but I didn't know this was common. I did put a straight edge on the main body to base surface, and was able to get a feeler gauge in between--it was very little, I don't remember what it was exactly, but it wasn't flat. I have worked with many Holley carbs over the years, but I've never had this happen before. Finding someone around here that can reliably mill this is the next challenge.