FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: ArtZarateJr on May 31, 2024, 09:29:55 AM
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I'm still not sure what to say. At $4,500 for the pair.....
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What are you unhappy with?
Did they provide a flow sheet? The price is high indeed
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I'm assuming that the O.P. is just not impressed with the sum of material removed in the "CNC Porting" presenting the sums of as cast surfaces remaining?
The take from this, as from the manufacture's point of view, I am of the impression that they don't seem to be demonstrating very much confidence in the accuracy of the casting work and are afraid that anything more aggressive in the way of porting work might lead to an unacceptable sum of trashed heads? But even if one isn't impressed with the results of this CNC work, if one were to want to go farther in the porting endeavor there is significant value in the location references that the scrubbing does provide, just not sure of the monetary value? :-\
Of course, it could be that they consider the port to be as nearly 'perfect' as cast, and the "CNC Porting" is being addressed as just an extra charge window dressing option for those whom demand it? :o
Scott.
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I assume you are right, but asked just to be sure
It doesn't take much sometimes to gain even up to 40 cfm without changing a port shape, but would be interested in the numbers to see if it did well on these heads
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I think Blair Patrick is doing all BBM heads now there was a post not that long ago that Blair said he is doing BBM's cnc program and preping of bbm heads. I am not sure if Blair did my heads it was a few years ago now but mine look the same and flowed 350cfm @.700 on a 4.250 bore I got my heads flowed in Australia
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I certainly would trust Blair with anything he did to the heads.
He has more experience with race winning FE's than most.
JMO
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The heads are cast with throat sizes that will accept 2.09 and 1.600 minimum valve sizes. I have different programs for various valve sizes. We run the cnc through all intake ports, on every head that is sold, just to touch up the port and keep the product consistent. There is no worry of “core shift” when we do that. There are areas that do not need to get any bigger, or be shaped any different. Making the hole bigger isn’t necessarily better. All of the transitions from cast to milled are blended nicely. The places that need to be bigger, are such. A lot of testing went into the port shape and design. The cnc work that is done is done with results in mind. Making it bigger just so the program cleaned up completely would actually hurt more than help. The poster might want to put those heads on an engine and test them before he gets too bent out of shape. Might be surprised by the results if the rest of the engine is up to it. He failed to mention that the valve job is perfect, and the blending from the seat insert to the cnc milling is also blended perfectly.
To the poster: If you are not happy, and you want to return the heads directly to me, I will refund your money in full, provided they are unscathed. You will not be able to buy a better head for the price paid with better quality hardware, with a Medium Riser port location, than the head you just received. I’ve been doing this a long time, with some modest success here and there. That is high quality stuff you have there, whether it is obvious to you or not. There is $800 worth of tool steel retainers, machined 10 degree locks, PAC solid roller springs, locators, blue Viton seals, shims, etc. included in that price you referenced. Again, if you want to return them, get in touch with me directly.
BP
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Thank you Blair!
I have seen similar comments from heads that my brother ported. The customer complains that all areas of a port are not "finished".
Many do not realize that some as cast ports are already too big in certain areas - hence not being touched.
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The heads are cast with throat sizes that will accept 2.09 and 1.600 minimum valve sizes. I have different programs for various valve sizes. We run the cnc through all intake ports, on every head that is sold, just to touch up the port and keep the product consistent. There is no worry of “core shift” when we do that. There are areas that do not need to get any bigger, or be shaped any different. Making the hole bigger isn’t necessarily better. All of the transitions from cast to milled are blended nicely. The places that need to be bigger, are such. A lot of testing went into the port shape and design. The cnc work that is done is done with results in mind. Making it bigger just so the program cleaned up completely would actually hurt more than help. The poster might want to put those heads on an engine and test them before he gets too bent out of shape. Might be surprised by the results if the rest of the engine is up to it. He failed to mention that the valve job is perfect, and the blending from the seat insert to the cnc milling is also blended perfectly.
To the poster: If you are not happy, and you want to return the heads directly to me, I will refund your money in full, provided they are unscathed. You will not be able to buy a better head for the price paid with better quality hardware, with a Medium Riser port location, than the head you just received. I’ve been doing this a long time, with some modest success here and there. That is high quality stuff you have there, whether it is obvious to you or not. There is $800 worth of tool steel retainers, machined 10 degree locks, PAC solid roller springs, locators, blue Viton seals, shims, etc. included in that price you referenced. Again, if you want to return them, get in touch with me directly.
BP
Thank you for chiming in. I appreciate that.
First I apologize for being absent. There's a lot of work to do around here.
Second I agree with the blending of the valve job. Very nice work indeed.
Third....my ignorance is partly to blame here. I should have spoken with you directly. I feel that I would've received what I asked and paid for.
I'll have to pick this back up a little later, but I'll leave you with this.
Why does your head detach at 0.600? 298 at 0.500 is screaming in there and 329 at .600 wow and done.....flying over the short side and beating right into long side wall. What's the fuel gonna do??? 😬
I'll touch on some more later, and relax. I'll keep the head I was sent, but I would've liked what I asked for. I'm not building the engine I want to anymore....I'm building what I have to. The supply and demand is a factor. The salesman.....smh.
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You must be flowing the head with some sort of radius entry just right against the intake flange. You will not get the whole picture that way. The intake port on the FEis very short, and on a couple of angles at the flange. All other heads on the planet have a longer port. You should flow an FE head with at least two inches of extension, properly sized and shaped for the port to represent that piece of the port that is attached to the intake manifold. Then put your normal radius entry on that. The 30 cfm jump from .500 to .600 looks a little odd to me. I usually see 315 on that particular port on the intake at .500, and low 330s at .600. All benches and methods vary wildly throughout the industry, but your “detached” comment isn’t accurate if you flow the head more like it is represented on the engine. Also, that valve is not parked at the measurement points in a running engine. The mixture has mass. I want that mixture excited and moving fast at .550-.600 lift, like a semi truck wide open down a hill. The piston is changing directions and working against you after BDC. I want that mass to run right through the stop sign at the bottom of the hill….like the truck that can’t stop. I make it move fast at .600 on purpose. If the mixture has no momentum it will stall. A big .700 or .800 lift number on a bench won’t help your .660 lift if it is lazy coming to the party. Enough theory………it usually works for me.
The person who bought those heads supplied cam specs. .683 before lash. I finished the ports and used a valve job to maximize flow between .600 and .625 lift based on information supplied by the customer. The information supplied is what I used. If that is your lift range, which was supplied to us, you should put that head on and run it. It will work really well if you have the right combo above and below it.
I will post these folks some dyno info on the various new BBM head combos, on various engine sizes, as we get them through their processes. I am sure others will circulate info on the new heads when they use them.
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Moving it fast to reatomize the fuel?
Yes you are correct. It was flowed with a radius and no runner extension. I'm curious about that.
I appreciate you taking the time to explain and offer answers to my ignorance.
The original camshaft specs were .683 without lash. However after grinding the cam doctor reported otherwise. I passed those along to Doug. Whether he passed them along I can't say.
I originally asked for bare cylinder heads, and I met resistance in form of an assembled CNC head with 2.220/1.680 valves, conical springs, and tool steel retainers. I asked for titanium retainers and I was told, "No they'll break." Being a conical spring with such a small retainer, I relunctingly accepted that. I also asked for a standard "nail head" exhaust valve in 1.650 and 72cc chambers. These things we agreed upon.
I received a pair of very nicely deburred and chamfered cylinder heads. Stainless 2.220 int with no backcut and 1.680 30° tulip exhaust valve, double solid roller springs, and tool steel retainers.
I'll be back with more. I've got to get some dinner. Another long day.
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What are you unhappy with?
Did they provide a flow sheet? The price is high indeed
No flow data. No literature what so ever.
When I was in search of cylinder heads, I was able to find literature pon Survival Motorsports Felony cylinder head. Unsure why no such literature was provided in this case.
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As Blair said -
"If you are not happy, and you want to return the heads directly to me, I will refund your money in full, provided they are unscathed."
I am not sure why you - or anyone would question any cylinder head BP provided for a specific application.
BP has forgotten more about FE's than most know.
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Thank you for the positive comments 1968galaxie. We try hard to put out a quality product, but sometimes there are individuals who can’t be satisfied.
Mr. Zarate, I wonder why you didn’t just call Doug and return the heads to start with, and go right out and buy something better. I didn’t start handling head sales for BBM until after your customer ordered heads, but Doug is and always has been very good with customer service. We’ve done hundreds of BBM heads together over the last 10+ years, and never have had too many complaints, and none that we couldn’t resolve. The conical springs we use are only good to .620 lift. The springs we sent you are good to .700, and are very good PAC springs. We don’t sell anything for a street, street strip, or endurance engine with a titanium retainer. They will fatigue, and they will fail. The lightweight tool steel is a much more durable and is comparable in weight savings. You could have bought heads “ready for springs” and put whatever you wanted to put on there. The 1.650 valve would have to go in the as-cast chamber. To get the cnc exhaust, you had to go to 1.680.
Flow numbers……..we don’t sell flow numbers. We sell quality heads that are well prepared, clean, expertly machined, and they also perform well. I flow the stuff here, and I know what I am looking for before I even take it in there these days. When people advertise flow numbers, there are always people who say they don’t see such numbers. Lots of variables can cause different numbers. Gains are made by doing R&D on the same bench and learning from data from the one source. Why didn’t you just ask for the flow data that we see? Sounds like you were going to flow them anyway, so why worry about what our numbers are?
There are mass produced FE heads growing on trees everywhere you look that are nicely machined, hand lapped and blended, and flow 330+ at .600 lift, with a standard Medium Riser location. It should have been no problem to grab a set and you could have just returned those junkers you got from us, or addressed any issues you might have with us, rather than posting your complaints on our friendly forum here. You are new to this place, but it ain’t the Yellowbullet environment here. There are a few who spew from time to time, but it’s not the normal way here.
I am finished commenting on this thread. It is clear now to me that I am wasting my time beating a dead horse. I hope you can salvage some acceptable results. Those heads you have in your possession can make 500 to 800 hp depending on what is coupled to them. End of discussion for me.
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And that.... is the very definition of a "Mike Drop".
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Well, I do thank everyone for their time.
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Thank you for the positive comments 1968galaxie. We try hard to put out a quality product, but sometimes there are individuals who can’t be satisfied.
Mr. Zarate, I wonder why you didn’t just call Doug and return the heads to start with, and go right out and buy something better. I didn’t start handling head sales for BBM until after your customer ordered heads, but Doug is and always has been very good with customer service. We’ve done hundreds of BBM heads together over the last 10+ years, and never have had too many complaints, and none that we couldn’t resolve. The conical springs we use are only good to .620 lift. The springs we sent you are good to .700, and are very good PAC springs. We don’t sell anything for a street, street strip, or endurance engine with a titanium retainer. They will fatigue, and they will fail. The lightweight tool steel is a much more durable and is comparable in weight savings. You could have bought heads “ready for springs” and put whatever you wanted to put on there. The 1.650 valve would have to go in the as-cast chamber. To get the cnc exhaust, you had to go to 1.680.
Flow numbers……..we don’t sell flow numbers. We sell quality heads that are well prepared, clean, expertly machined, and they also perform well. I flow the stuff here, and I know what I am looking for before I even take it in there these days. When people advertise flow numbers, there are always people who say they don’t see such numbers. Lots of variables can cause different numbers. Gains are made by doing R&D on the same bench and learning from data from the one source. Why didn’t you just ask for the flow data that we see? Sounds like you were going to flow them anyway, so why worry about what our numbers are?
There are mass produced FE heads growing on trees everywhere you look that are nicely machined, hand lapped and blended, and flow 330+ at .600 lift, with a standard Medium Riser location. It should have been no problem to grab a set and you could have just returned those junkers you got from us, or addressed any issues you might have with us, rather than posting your complaints on our friendly forum here. You are new to this place, but it ain’t the Yellowbullet environment here. There are a few who spew from time to time, but it’s not the normal way here.
I am finished commenting on this thread. It is clear now to me that I am wasting my time beating a dead horse. I hope you can salvage some acceptable results. Those heads you have in your possession can make 500 to 800 hp depending on what is coupled to them. End of discussion for me.
On the contrary, I felt like we were getting some where.
I wanted to share my experience and review the feedback. Questions were asked and I tried to answer them.
Maybe better customer service would've been informing me that changes were made and informing me of what I was receiving. Rather than I had to discover for myself.
I was unable to find much information, other than on the BBM website, and I thought this was a good place to gain some. Until I made this post, I had no clue who was building these cylinder heads. After learning a few things I can clearly see how information could be lost when communicating from California to Tennessee.
I considered returning them, but I don't have the time. I aslo thought I'd get some data on them first. Just in case I liked them for my next build.
Of course I was going to flow them. What engine builder wouldn't???? In March, when I started looking. None was listed by BBM. The only listing of flow numbers to your heads list similar results to mine. The port stalls at 0.600. Maybe your followers will blindly use your product, but I had questions. Luckily I don't need help with with the type of spark plug to use.
NEVER did I refer to these cylinder heads as "JUNK". If my questions insulted your ego, and you've given all the time you care to, then so be it. Perhaps you feel this is beneath you. I'd like to believe that you're a very busy person. Again I do thank you for your time.
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First and only person I've ever heard criticize Blair and his work in any way- one of the best at wringing out Super Stock power- there's always that pesky guy named Ray lol. It's been my experience that Blair, and Brent Lykins, Colvert, Kuntz, Zolko etc. always have time to respond, are willing to share (up to a point of course) their hard-earned knowledge and experience- if you have enough knowledge to ask the right question, they will help keep you on the right path. If one already knows everything, and doesn't listen, they won't be able to help much, and shouldn't have to waste their time. If Blair tells you Head A will do this and that, there's a pretty good chance it will deliver just that
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I totally agree with mean gene. Blair done my BBM heads also and they are awesome.
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Can anyone clarify as to where BBM cylinder heads are cast?
Korea???
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My understanding is that the BBM heads, and their FE blocks, are cast and machined at a large factory in Korea that supplies millions of engines and parts to several Asian car companies. The facility was described, by someone who was there in person, as being exemplary in its cleanliness. These are not mass-produced parts that they copy and puke out to Speedmaster or such likes, to try to make something decent out of. BBM organized the engineering for the parts, and oversaw all the steps in the production process...a lot like Blue Thunder does at their U.S. facility, to generate a high quality product.
I too had Blair prep me a set of the BBM heads, after a few phone consultations about the application. As well I had him specify the solid roller cam's specs to be used with them and the BT intake that Joe Crane ported for me. Knowing and understanding all of the major power producing components, what he sent me was...to put it mildly...light years ahead of my previous setup. I am very happy with his work!
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Thank you for the reply.