FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: FEsledpuller on July 31, 2013, 02:27:48 PM
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I'm planning to build my 390 in my 4x4 F100 for the local truck pulls. Its going in the Pro Street class which has a 408 cubic inch limit, so a stroker is not an option. The engine is getting a .060 overbore to bring it to 401 cubic inches. I'm wanting to know what I would need to make competitive power. The small block strokers seem to get to the 500 HP range without going too crazy, but I'm hoping to have a torque advantage over them. What kind of power numbers are achievable with an all motor 401 FE without turning crazy rpm's?
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How serious do you want to make this, and what is your budget?
A good reference would maybe be Edelbrocks RPM kit. Their heads, intake, and cam make est 400 hp and 430 tq.
Probably the combo with the most potential would be a 352 block, .030" over, with a 428 crank. That would leave you with 406 inches, thicker cylinders, and more torque from the longer stroke. Of course this would require custom pistons, but it would maximize potential and strength. Add good heads and cam it to your desired rpm range.
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For now I would like to stay with my current 401 short block so I can put more money into the heads and cam. I already have an Edelbrock Performer RPM intake. What heads and cam would get me around 500 hp and torque to match? From what I have gathered the FElony heads are the best out right now.
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type/selection. For sure grab a copy of THE GREAT FE INTAKE COMPARO by Jay Brown he compares dozens of FE builds and components
http://fepower.net/GFEIC.html
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I was thinking of ordering the intake comparo but would you say its better than Max Performance Ford FE book by Cartech?
There is no head or cam restriction. The only intake restriction is it can't be a sheet metal intake. Race gas is allowed, just no injectable like water, meth, nitrous, etc.
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With rules like that or a lack of rules... you need to decide how much money you want to spend and how much rpm you want to set the truck up for.... I have a 390 pump gas build posted on here that makes 450hp and 450 tq at only 6200-6300 and 4600 rpm. Its under members projects section... its nothing special but it runs good. I don't see a problem making 500-600 hp out of a 390 with those rules especially if you can run any style cam, aluminum head, and cast intake you want. What about exhaust? I assume headers are allowed?
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Headers are allowed. Exhaust has to exit at least 12" past the cab. I currently have 1 3/4 headers with 3" collectors. I was just going to run 3" tubes back to right before the rear axle and turn them down.
As for budget of course I want to get the most for the least, but I don't really have a set number. Even if I have to get parts over time, I would rather wait a little longer than to get a part I will want to upgrade down the road. I need to keep the RPM to where the factory rods and crank will be ok (with ARP hardware).
I have a hookup on the Edelbrock RPM heads that I can get for about $1250 new. I could maybe start there and down the road CNC them with bigger valves. But if FElony heads will make that much more power I would definitely consider spending the extra. I guess my concern is have too large of a head where due the the displacement restriction I have to turn really high rpm's to see any difference.
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How well is the bottom end built? Did you sonic the block? What pistons are you running?
I don't know exactly what the perfect combo will be, but you'll need good heads, a big cam, and a good amount of compression to get there. Keep in mind that Barry's heads aren't quite making 500 hp on a streetable 445 at 5500 rpm. With more cam and compression you might get there, but it will shift your power curve higher and you'll lose some torque.
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Block has been sonic checked. The rotating assembly has not been put together yet because I am waiting to choose pistons. I wanted to decide the pistons after I knew what the heads cc's would be so I can get the compression into a range I would want. With race gas I will want a decent amount.
I'm surprised Barry's heads didn't make 500hp. Looking at blueF100fe's build he got 450/450 from ported factory heads on pump gas..... Although you did say streetable. This truck will not see the street.
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For a slightly different view, I did a thirty-over 390 several years ago. I started with a '64 PI engine and added a Comp solid roller, and a set of Dove F-5 heads and a Dove 'spider' manifold. The heads and intake were massaged and matched by Wayne Kuchtyn at 'Headwinds' in Westland, MI. We used Ross flat-top pistons which created about 11.5-1 compression and used 2.100 nailhead intake valves and 1.65 tulip exhausts from Ferrea. We chose the cam specs to approximate the street characteristics you might get from the use of the factory 'AA' cam.
It's more story than is necessary here, but the break-in pulls on a dyno at Roush's Livonia facility produced +/- 500 HP with a fat fuel curve and with only 32 degrees of ignition, so there was likely somewhat more to be had.
Barry's head design is, for all practical purposes, as up-to-date as exists and if you were to use them, or alternatively a pair of Dove's F-5 offerings, your goal is surely within reach.
Good Luck!
KS
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Block has been sonic checked. The rotating assembly has not been put together yet because I am waiting to choose pistons. I wanted to decide the pistons after I knew what the heads cc's would be so I can get the compression into a range I would want. With race gas I will want a decent amount.
I'm surprised Barry's heads didn't make 500hp. Looking at blueF100fe's build he got 450/450 from ported factory heads on pump gas..... Although you did say streetable. This truck will not see the street.
Here is a link to Barry's 445 street build. It isn't very radical, but gives you a base line for 500hp. Take away the stroker components and add compression/cam and you can get there.
http://fefordtech.com/index.php?topic=28.0
If you look at the Edelbrock Performer RPM combo you see that you have a long ways to go. The cam is 236/236 @.50 with .572" lift. You'll have to go pretty extreme with the compression and cam to get another 100hp out of the heads/intake combo and again that will take really reving it out too.
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My recipe for 500 HP on this build would be something like this:
- Make sure the bottom end is good for at least 6500 RPM. Aftermarket H-beam connecting rods and a lightweight forged piston would be good investments. At the very least reconditioned stock rods and ARP bolts. 11.0:1 to 11.5:1 compression ratio
- Solid roller cam in the 250-255 degree at .050" range for the intake, lift in the neighborhood of .650"
- Survival heads with a mild porting job to get about 300 cfm on the intake port flow at .700" lift
- Stick with the Performer RPM intake to maintain your midrange torque, but port match it to the heads.
- At least a 750 double pumper Holley carb, maybe an 800 or 850.
- a cheap set of truck headers, where the tubes come straight off the ports at least a few inches before turning.
This ought to make 500 HP with no problem when tuned correctly, and make the peak HP RPM around 6000.
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I believe Blair Patrick is a vendor for one of the best (light and a nice ring package) pistons available for what your trying to do.. I don't see you making 500 at 400 cubes with only 6000.... maybe 6500. Your compromising the build with the stock rods...especially in a truck pulling application. They do break... the question is when. Im sure you know pulling is very hard on parts. Ive done a hand full of FE truck pulling engines for people. I just can't understand why people want skimp on something as important as connecting rods but will spend big coin on aluminum heads that will get damaged if and when a rod or bearing fail. Getting a head fixed after a rod failure will generally cost you more in repairs than just putting a set of scat or equivalent rods in from the start. And then when you get to a long or loose track and the engine wants to rev higher you don't have to be afraid to let it twist. I've been pulling on and off since before I had a license... the more rpm the better because that means more momentum at the end when the sled tries to stop you. Anyway good luck with your adventure pulling is addictive and so is drag racing which is why im poor because I do both part time :)
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It sounds like it may be best for me to go ahead and build a 406 bottom end like mentioned above, with forged rods and pistons. I could just port the factory heads for now to add more budget to the short block and maybe the following year add some aftermarket heads...
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Ok since im spending your money anyway.... here's what I would do and it doesn't involve a 428 crank. Since you probably need to have a crank ground whichever direction you go... I will make another suggestion. Use whichever block you want. Take a 390 or steel 391 crank and have it offset ground for a BBC style rod journal for some more stroke. If Your buying rods anyway might as well use the better journal and gain the stroke and not buy a expensive 428 crank. Also BBC type rods are cheap, strong, and plentiful. I will let you decide what block you want to use and how much stroke to get away with. Go this route and you would have a darn nice, durable, and efficient short block. Only way, in my opinion, to get more durable than that is to crossbolt the mains...Get a nice roller cam or a nasty solid flat tappet and then finish it off with whichever heads best fit your budget at the time. If I had a roller cam and some more compression in my 390 im sure it would break 500 net hp with iron heads... so many ways to get a desired result lol... its so much fun spending other peoples money....good luck :)
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Then again the machining cost for all of that work on a 40 year old crank would just about buy a new Scat crank too. You would actually be getting a complete stroker kit then, and the packaging discounts that come with that, of course adjusting the cost for the custom pistons.
Sounds like a really fun project.
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Haha nice. That definitely makes sense to go with a common BBC rod. It probably would even be cheaper buying a Chevy rod and machining vs what a forged h beam FE rod would cost. I have a machinist buddy who happens to owe me some favors so the machining part is no issue. I guess he would be able to tell what kind of custom pistons I would need?
I also need some recommendations on what clutch to use in the 4 speed behind this motor
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Problem with a aftermarket crank that is already machined is you can't custom tailor the stroke to land the displacement exactly where it needs to be.... I think a 0.040 over 352 block and a custom 3.95 stroke crank with BBC rod journals will get you rite at 408. This would be a really neat project. Plenty of different length rods to choose from. Hell using a 352 block you can probably find a dome sbc piston 0.040 over with the correct compression height to make it all fit. The last custom stroke stock cast crank I had done was $500 with bull nosing and knife edging, shipped to my door and that included the core. Can't buy a stroker crank for that.
Clutch needs to be a pretty stout piece as well or your gonna get really good at changing them. I would a single disc sintered iron or button clutch with a sfi steel flywheel and skattershield. Hope this helps some.
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Wouldnt the smaller bore of the 352 hurt upper rpm power though? You mentioned upper rpm power being important. I guess you need to have a good balance of HP and tq.
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Are all FE clutches the same for cars and trucks? Looks like the few aftermarket clutches I have seen just say 11".
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As said, you need to have a good balance of HP and tq.
And a friend of mine who is a big Ford sled head said "make as much as you can as wide as you can" for pulling He used to run TP heads on a 454 combo and he said it was great when he could hook up and keep in it but one pull out of the throttle and he could never get it back cause the old TP heads would never have any bottom end. But today we have those updated Felony heads that flow as much as TP heads on top and as much as a CJ on bottom end flow so it's the best of both worlds in one head. Also I am with Cody here and would just add a nice roller cam you can hit some serious profiles you could never hit with a juice cam. Also you can deck the block side to make your CR as needed, wedge does have it's place.
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I believe the idea regarding lack of torque with a TP came from using the wrong sort of things to go with it. Please look at the use of the TP in the GT40 at LeMans where it was necessary at both the Mulsanne corner and at Arnage to slow down to about 20 MPH and then accelerate again. It was necessary to use a two plane manifold to do so instead of the single plane used in NASCAR. I've flowed both and although there IS a difference, it's minor. And both are quite balanced from runner to runner. We ran the GT40-sourced 652 center-squirters on the 2 plane TP manifold.
A single plane 'spider' does have somewhat less torque to offer.
We ran a dual plane TP 427 in Brother Lon's '67 Mustang. For several months it was his daily driver as well as being regularly street-raced during that Summer of '68. Please believe that lack-of-torque was the least of the potential problems. And we ran the GT40-sourced 652 center-squirters on the 2 plane TP manifold.
KS
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Can anyone tell me if I get the deep 8 quart oil pan will I be okay with not doing any type of oil restriction to the heads? I figured this would allow a few quarts in the top end while keeping plenty of oil in the bottom for the bearings.
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It should be fine. You could even add an extra quart for a total of 9. Once the engine is running, it will have several quarts floating around in the engine. Some FEs have a tendancy to flood the heads, but that is usually due to drainback issues and not too much oil. Some guys disagree and like to restrict oil to the rockers, some don't. I like to keep oil flowing there for cooling purposes as much as anything else. You can help the flooding issue by contouring the drainbacks, making sure there is room to get by the studs and using the tins (if possible, some rocker shaft stand systems cause problems with using them). Either way, with decent drainback, 8-9qts of oil should be plenty to feed the engine.
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Would a standard or high volume pump be recommended?
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I'm going to say, Yes.
Or a M57B which will put out about 60 to 65 psi (the same as a HV), but is a standard volume.
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How well is the bottom end built? Did you sonic the block? What pistons are you Keep in mind that Barry's heads aren't quite making 500 hp on a streetable 445 at 5500 rpm. With more cam and compression you might get there, but it will shift your power curve higher and you'll lose some torque.
You really need to learn how to put things into a proper context.
That 9.8:1 compression 445 mentioned in the magazine article has a really small 224@.050 hydraulic roller cam intended for power brakes and a decent idle - his wife drives the car as a normal cruiser. A set of Stage X ported Edelbrocks in the same general package requires roughly 10 degrees more duration to make about the same power and still made less torque. The same exact heads have supported over 600 horsepower unported in bigger cube builds.
The below is not a really good comparison, but its the one I have at hand right now. Its a pair of similar builds with off the shelf Edelbrocks and a 218@.050 cam versus the magazine article engine. The key observation here is that - even with a bigger cam the engine with better heads out-torqued the lesser engine by a fair margin even at the bottom of the pull.
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e135/Barry_R/445dynoFElony224vsEde218HR_zps8fd6d984.jpg)
Adding compression in these ranges will raise power and torque - there is no downside beyond fuel tolerance. The puller needs to decide on the working RPM range - both top and bottom. If he never goes below 2500, trading power and torque below that range in order to gain power above it is a 100% winner. Won't matter if it idles like crap and stumbles through the pits - if it makes power where it's working.
If I were doing the build on something of a budget I would blend the suggestions a bit. Regrind the factory 390 crank for the BBC rods, get a good piston and .043 ring combo, some aftermarket I beams, a flat tappet solid with rather short durations in the high 240s and as much lift as you can tolerate. - .600+ plus. Obviously I would use my heads, but ported Edelbrocks will also work well - keep the cross section fairly small - don't get crazy. The RPM intake and a good 750ish double pumper & go.
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Are all FE clutches the same for cars and trucks? Looks like the few aftermarket clutches I have seen just say 11".
Your opening another can of worms here.
What 4 speed are you talking about?
You can get some pretty nice 11" clutches.
Ford used 11" and 12" and they were different between cars and trucks. Small spline and big spline, even different bells.
For your huff'in and puff'in 390ish yanker your going to need a after market set up. Plan on spending more. ::)
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You really need to learn how to put things into a proper context.
Yeah, it was a bad example but I was just trying to find something with your heads around 500 hp. At that point he was still planning on keeping th bottom end stock too.
So with your suggestion and your heads how much HP do you think he'll make and at what RPM?
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Are all FE clutches the same for cars and trucks? Looks like the few aftermarket clutches I have seen just say 11".
Your opening another can of worms here.
What 4 speed are you talking about?
You can get some pretty nice 11" clutches.
Ford used 11" and 12" and they were different between cars and trucks. Small spline and big spline, even different bells.
For your huff'in and puff'in 390ish yanker your going to need a after market set up. Plan on spending more. ::)
The trans would be whatever 4 speed would have came in a mid 70's ford highboy pickup. I work at a parts store and showed some of the clutch sets had the same part numbers between cars and trucks, but a couple were different. It also shows a diaphragm type and lever type. From a quick internet search it looks like I probably have the lever style in there and should stick with it. Aftermarket clutch set in this style seem to be in the $300-400 dollar range. I was looking to pick one up soon but got to thinking about the clutch break in period. The truck is not registered or insured for the street, and most info I have found shows a recommended 500 mile easy period. This is not doable for me, although I do live out in the country and could do a 20 minute or so drive around the block, constantly engaging and disengaging the clutch, but that's about it. So how can I break in this clutch before competition? I will also mention the first competition this clutch will see will be behind a mostly stock 390 in the stock class. This is in a month and a half from now. After that I plan to start this motor build.
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To the OP, any new info/updates on this project? I am interested in any FE sledpullers that I can learn from. Currently pulling a 1975 F-250 4x4 in the 6500lbs stock gas class with United Pullers, Rocky Mountain pullers and Live-A-Little Productions. I have done a little bracket racing and sand drags but pulling is the ultimate rush!
Nick
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If it was me.... I would use a STD oil pump for your app. Running 6,000 rpms for an extended amount of time. If it was just a street FE (90% street and the other 10% at the strip). Then I would run a HV Oil pump. Just because of the idling around. Help cool valve springs and what not. JMHO