FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: nick c on May 03, 2024, 02:22:51 PM
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Rather than starting a dozen threads related to this project I'll just start one and ask questions as I go along.
Picked up a 1970 F250 360 C6 Dana 60/4.10 gear truck last month. Stock aside from aftermarket wheels. Goal is to build a fun street truck that can be a shop truck for projects. Don't envision towing or hauling heavy loads often. I like the idea of a powerplant that is comparable or better to the new F150's with the 5.0 or ecoboost, while being 800lbs lighter.
I found a local guy with a pile of 390 stuff from his highboy build that he had converted to a 460. Got a package deal that included essentially two 390's and a bunch of parts.
The first 390 is a complete motor that reportedly had two collapsed lifters when he pulled it:
~4.070 bore when measured with calipers
Lemans rods, 10:1 compression, unknown make for pistons
small custom truck hydraulic roller cam 208/213 @ 0.050 112 lobe separation, .520 lift
Howards cams (Morel?) Hydraulic lifters
C8-AEH heads 2.06(?) intake valves, 1.56 exhaust
Edelbrock rpm intake
factory adjustable rockers
performance distributers duraspark with bronze gear
ARP hardware
The other is a virgin 390 short block with 4.050 bore
included was a set of unused/rebuilt D2 heads
Among the other parts:
Summit RTR distributer
Hedman longtubes
I'm considering four different ways to go about the build:
Rebuild as 390/iron heads CJ valves with different/new custom roller cam
390/custom cam/TFS or other aluminum head
445/iron heads
445/TFS heads
Questions to follow.
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First question:
The engine reportedly had two collapsed lifters. It has Howards cams hydraulic roller lifters installed. These are rebranded Morels, right? Is there a examination that would verify a lifter problem?
While examining the motor I found three of the factory adjustable rocker arms loose, and two of the corresponding pushrods were 'burned' towards the cup area. Is this indicative of bad lifters?
See attached picture of the pushrods.
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The lifters have nothing to do with the push rod cup. Lack of oil is the only thing that can cause that.
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Interesting. How would the lack of pushrod oiling lead to loose rockers?
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I discovered that the pin in one of the roller lifters had worked it's way loose and the wheel is chewed up. The corresponding lobe on the cam has a pretty good ridge in it. One of the burned pushrods corresponds to that lifter, not sure if they're related.
I'm not used to looking at cylinder heads. They're C8-AEH castings. They were advertised as being worked over and have hardened seats, bowl work, with matched cc chambers. I can see that they have double springs (or helper springs?), one piece retainers, viton valve seals. The bowls appear to have work done, there's casting flash in the intake runners. The valves are ~2.058" intake and 1.056"ex., 0.368" diameter.
Is there a good resource for FE heads with pictures and so forth to review in order to better evaluate what I'm looking at?
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Interesting. How would the lack of pushrod oiling lead to loose rockers?
The push rods are not oiled up/through the lifters on a 390FE.
The oiling starts from the oil passage in the deck of the block, then up through the heads, up to the shaft, and then to each rocker arm - then to the cup in the push rod.
Perhaps someone blocked off the oiling to the rocker shaft?
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Interesting. How would the lack of pushrod oiling lead to loose rockers?
The push rods are not oiled up/through the lifters on a 390FE.
The oiling starts from the oil passage in the deck of the block, then up through the heads, up to the shaft, and then to each rocker arm - then to the cup in the push rod.
Perhaps someone blocked off the oiling to the rocker shaft?
The heads have carb jets in the rocker arm oiling passage. I tried removing one, and only managed to push it further in during the process.. will need to figure out how to remove.
I didn't note the orientation of the shafts when removing them from the cylinder heads, but the rockers themselves don't show signs of oil starvation. That is, the bushings and oil grooves don't appear to show abnormal wear. The shafts appear to be good as well.
I saw a video recently about gunk getting into the shafts, perhaps there is build up inside them?
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I discovered that the pin in one of the roller lifters had worked it's way loose and the wheel is chewed up. The corresponding lobe on the cam has a pretty good ridge in it. One of the burned pushrods corresponds to that lifter, not sure if they're related.
I'm not used to looking at cylinder heads. They're C8-AEH castings. They were advertised as being worked over and have hardened seats, bowl work, with matched cc chambers. I can see that they have double springs (or helper springs?), one piece retainers, viton valve seals. The bowls appear to have work done, there's casting flash in the intake runners. The valves are ~2.058" intake and 1.056"ex., 0.368" diameter.
Is there a good resource for FE heads with pictures and so forth to review in order to better evaluate what I'm looking at?
None of the dimensions, that I high lighted in bold, are FE dimensions. Valves should be ~2.03 x 1.56, with ~.371 to .372 stems
I think we need pictures of your heads and rocker arm assemblys. The RA shaft grooves go to the bottom or the rockers can't get full oil.
You should be able to blow the restricter out with air, from the bottom of the head.
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None of the dimensions, that I high lighted in bold, are FE dimensions. Valves should be ~2.03 x 1.56, with ~.371 to .372 stems
I think we need pictures of your heads and rocker arm assemblys. The RA shaft grooves go to the bottom or the rockers can't get full oil.
You should be able to blow the restricter out with air, from the bottom of the head.
I miss typed the exhaust valve size; it is 1.56"
I measured the intake valve a number of times, it is 2.058". The stock valve is certainly 2.03", the other set of heads I received have the 2.03's in them. I don't know why or where these 2.05's came from.
I've already removed and disassembled the rocker arms/shafts unfortunately.
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Say you wanted to end up with an aluminum headed 445 stroker, but didn't have the funds to handy to do it in one step. Would your two step approach be:
A. Heads/custom cam now; add 445 bottom end later
or
B. 445 bottom end first and choke it out with OE heads until future replacement with TFS/BBM heads.
???
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Say you wanted to end up with an aluminum headed 445 stroker, but didn't have the funds to handy to do it in one step. Would your two step approach be:
A. Heads/custom cam now; add 445 bottom end later
or
B. 445 bottom end first and choke it out with OE heads until future replacement with TFS/BBM heads.
???
I'd do the bottom end first. You can swap heads in the vehicle. You could always cam for the heads you plan to switch to.
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Fwiw, I believe the path to happiness is a well built stroked short block...especially in a pickup that won't be drag raced. Performance minded heads are just icing for the cake.
I don't think anyone has mentioned it but unless the plan is to pull the dizzy somewhat regularly, I'd throw away the bronze gear. They're more for niche applications.
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I'd do the bottom end first. You can swap heads in the vehicle. You could always cam for the heads you plan to switch to.
This answers a question I've been wondering about for awhile now regarding using a cam spec'd for a different set of heads that will be the "end game" for the engine. Thanks for throwing that out there Brent.
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I'd do the bottom end first. You can swap heads in the vehicle. You could always cam for the heads you plan to switch to.
This answers a question I've been wondering about for awhile now regarding using a cam spec'd for a different set of heads that will be the "end game" for the engine. Thanks for throwing that out there Brent.
Yep, the cylinder head is a huge variable in what cam specs are needed. I've done this many times for guys who build a short block, use factory heads, but plan on adding good heads down the road. You end up with a small cam for the factory headed engine, but a cam that's just right for what's coming down the road.
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Did you mean cam on the big side for the factory headed engine?
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Did you mean cam on the big side for the factory headed engine?
If you were never gonna switch heads, then yes, you'd need a little larger cam than usual to feed the larger displacement with factory head flow.
However, if you're planning on upgrading the heads, the "good" heads will need a lot less duration to get to the same point. So, you'd need a smaller cam than what you'd think.
From the testing I've done, you gain around 100 rpm of peak hp rpm per 10 cfm that the head flow goes up. If you go from something like a C8AE-H head that flows around 220cfm up to a 330 cfm Trick Flow head, you can see why the cam change would be necessary.
If you stick a set of C8AE-H heads on a 445 short block, with plans to upgrade to TFS heads down the road, I would cam the engine for the TFS heads.
As a rough example to try and illustrate the point better, back in the day when we were using Edelbrock heads, I would get about 475-500hp with a 445 and an Edelbrock head with a good valve job, bowl blend, 11/32" valves, etc. I'd use a 235 @ .050" duration camshaft to get there. When the TFS heads came out, I found that I could make 540-550 hp with them, but use a smaller camshaft at around 230 @ .050" duration. Those Edelbrock heads were about 280-290 cfm, where as the TFS heads sit at around 330. So you could see how much more camshaft you would need to try to get a 445 to work decently with a C8 factory head. As a matter of fact, you'd probably never really be able to add enough camshaft to get them to make horsepower and you could end up with something that didn't have bottom end or top end either one. You'd end up with a huge cam and then when you swapped heads to the TFS heads, you'd end up with something that would be making a ton more horsepower at a much higher rpm than what would be suitable for your application.
Hope that makes more sense.
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That's really interesting. I guess the overly simplified analogy would essentially be that as airflow improves, the less duration is needed to make power. Thanks, for taking the time to explain that Brent.
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That's really interesting. I guess the overly simplified analogy would essentially be that as airflow improves, the less duration is needed to make power. Thanks, for taking the time to explain that Brent.
Yeah, that's a better explanation than my rambling.
On some of my 347-363 SBF stuff with AFR heads, they will peak at 6200 with just a 219° @ .050" cam. The heads make all the difference.
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Question about purchasing complete internally balanced rotating assemblies. Are the matching components stamped or otherwise marked? Do the wrist pin/rod/pistons come assembled? Wondering how the end user knows which components go where.
When it comes to machine the block are the following what you'd ask the machine shop to perform:
Clean block
sonic check/magnaflux
Bore/hone cylinders (with torque plate?)
Square deck block
align hone main bearing caps
Cam bearing install
I have two candidate blocks, one is 4.050" bore the other is 4.080". Is there a reason to use the 4.080" block? Is it better to perform oiling system modifications prior to the machine shop work?
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Question about purchasing complete internally balanced rotating assemblies. Are the matching components stamped or otherwise marked? Do the wrist pin/rod/pistons come assembled? Wondering how the end user knows which components go where.
When it comes to machine the block are the following what you'd ask the machine shop to perform:
Clean block
sonic check/magnaflux
Bore/hone cylinders (with torque plate?)
Square deck block
align hone main bearing caps
Cam bearing install
I have two candidate blocks, one is 4.050" bore the other is 4.080". Is there a reason to use the 4.080" block? Is it better to perform oiling system modifications prior to the machine shop work?
The end user will know one way or the other. When you buy an internally balanced assembly, the seller will advise on what to do. Some guys will grind material off to weight balance everything. Some guys will mix and match parts/weights in order to keep from having to grind. Pistons are not hung on the rods.
You can use the 4.080" block if it is in good shape. A good shop will sonic it before they do any work.
For stuff to do, I'd say:
*Bake/tumble
*Pressure test/magnaflux
*Bore & hone with torque plates
*Square decks
*Align hone with fasteners you're going to use
*Install cam bearings
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Most importantly with the machine work, know for sure and without any doubts the shop knows what they are doing with a FE block.
In the past few years, with older machinists retiring from the shops in my area, I've had a few "I almost got what I asked for" and zero "I got exactly what I asked for" experiences with work done on a couple FE blocks. That is even after making a best effort before hand to ensure the shop could do what I wanted. Even though the answers I got were "yes", in hindsight, they were obviously blowing smoke to get some business.
"Yes we have torque plates for that block" (they didn't) and "Yes we are familiar with FE blocks" (rear cam bearing plug installed backwards) are just a couple examples.
The most frustrating was my experience with wanting to have the cylinder work done with a torque plate. They told me they had a torque plate (as noted above and yes, I called before sending the block to them to verify), I sent along the ARP head studs and a printed list of exactly what I wanted done to the block. When I say printed, I mean typed in a word processer with nice large easy to read font and printed on paper. I figured that would alleviate any issues with not being able to read someone else's handwriting. When I got the block back and the ARP head studs were still in their original packaging and untouched, I immediately called to inquire why they weren't used with the torque plate as per the instructions I sent. "We don't have a torque plate for FE blocks" was the response..... *sigh*
Anyway, I think you get the idea. ;)
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Keep in mind, header flanges are different for aftermarket heads and the truck iron.
Some can be drilled or slotted to allow the gasket and port to be aligned and seal, some cannot. I have a stroker in my own truck and I decided to port the iron. Nowhere near the performance of TFS, but my headers were ceramic coated and fit well. 490HP @5000 with an almost too mild hydraulic flat tappet, would be deep into the 500s with the TFS
If you have the headers already, buy a pair of gaskets for a CJ car and see if there is room to mover the bolt holes around. Unfortunately, I do not think anyone makes the correct header if it's a 4x4 anymore, FPA used to but stopped making 4x4 headers
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All I can add to the header deal is Hedman 4x4 Truck Headers 89120 fit BBM heads. The difference is very small...like 1/16". It was not perfect but far from justifying anything custom.
There may be an old post on here when I build my motor and laid it all out. I have it on paper in my build notes somewhere. I had the heads on the bench and headers off. I did a full layout to make sure I did not need to buy custom flanges/custom stuff. They fit fine and fit in the truck as well....very minor adjustment on the passenger side to a tube where the shackle comes into play, but not much more than from the old D2 heads and stock 360. Almost all budget friendly headers on the old Highboys require some minor "adjusting". Again, that is BBM and your milage may vary with TFS.
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Question: Can hydraulic roller lifters like the Morel's be reused following a cam swap? Or do they 'wear in' to the cam lobes over time and need to be replaced with any cam change?
Or is that guidance more appropriate to the flat tappets and solid rollers?
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Any roller lifter (solid or hydraulic) can be re-used on a new cam without a break-in period. Flat tappet lifters need to be broken in to a specific cam, but roller lifters don't.