FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: lovehamr on July 20, 2013, 05:27:01 PM
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That's the sound that my 462" FE started making on my way home yesterday. It started softly enough that I really couldn't hear it over the exhaust but it got gradually louder until I could also feel it in the floor and steering wheel. The car is a fake Cobra with solid mounts so everything tends to get transmitted to the driver. Once a realized that I wasn't hearing a blown header gasket or something like that I shut her down, coasted to a stop, had it started once with me outside the car to hear it for about 10 seconds the trailered her home with a huge pit in my stomach. During this, I never lost any oil pressure, there was no overheating or anything like that. Just the bang bang bang noise, it wasn't even missing or running weird. So today I pulled the VCs thinking I had a rocker failure or something but nothing up top seems amiss. So I pulled the Aviad RR pan which is a huge PITA and started pulling rod caps and checking the bearings. The engine has just over 7k miles on it and you can tell that it's been run by looking at the bearings but there really aren't any problems there. It’s certainly not enough to explain the horrid noise coming from the thing. I took pics of all the rod cap bearings and journals and am posting a link to them on my photobucket page.
http://s266.photobucket.com/user/lovehamr/library/Noisy%20FE (http://s266.photobucket.com/user/lovehamr/library/Noisy%20FE)
All of the other surfaces that I can see all look almost brand new, i.e. the bottoms of the pistons are all perfect with no discoloration at all, the cam lobes and lifters all look great as well. I'm turning the crank by hand to do all this and haven't felt any rough spots or heard any noise during the 1 revolution that I turned it.
So, WTH guys? Ya'll have any ideas before I hook up a starter switch and turn this thing over with me under to hear/see what's going on?
Thanks, Steve
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Are you sure its inside and not clutch or flywheel?
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If you can't find any excess play or witness marks anywhere inside the engine, then like Ross said, start checking on either side. Check the clutch and flywheel veeeery carefully. Also, if you have a mechanical fuel pump, they can get real noisy, like rod knock noisy, if the pump arm spring is loose or busted. Maybe check the damper also as I've seen them start to come apart before.
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Thanks for the suggestions guys. With my hearing it very well could be in the clutch/flywheel. No mech fuel pump to worry about though. Guess I'll be yanking the trans today.
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Wish you well! Had an intermittent noise such as you reference and ultimately found a small chunk of loose aluminum flash occasionally making contact with the converter. This was in a car with 20 K miles before anything was audible.
KS
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I'd have been getting out the stethoscope and doing some probing.
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OK got the drive train out and found no obvious problem. One thing that stands out is the flywheel was loose on the crank after all the bolts were loosened. I've installed and removed this Fidanza aluminum FW 3 times now and, up until now, getting it on or off has been quite an exercise. Not today though as it practically fell off. There are no obvious cracks that I can see but the way it fits the FW just isn't right. Never had a broken FW, could this be it?
Scotia, with my hearing I'm a big user of a mechanic's stethoscope but the way this thing was banging it sounded like something catastrophic was going to happen any second so I shut it down.
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I have been down this road, before I start pulling the engine (that's what I did the first time) I check my distributor cap for cross tracks. Now I always carry a spare cap for those road trips. No guarantee but worth a look.
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If it fit tight and now its loose, something changed.
Look close at the rear main cap and block, make sure your flywheel bolts weren't hitting. Some bottom out lightly and you could have been pushing the crank back with the bolts and still had the flywheel only marginally tight.
If you do find they were hitting, I would replace the mains, actually only the thrust bearing if it is eaten up, and I would have the flywheel zyglo'd to check for cracks. However, if there was no damage to the crank thrust area and the flywheel wasn't significantly damaged, I'd trim a set of bolts and run it
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OK, finally had the time and motivation to get back out there and look at things closer. First up I checked the dist cap and other than a worn center electrode I see no evidence of carbon tracking or anything else that would cause this problem. That checks with me because it was running fine while it was making that noise. Here's a pic of the cap:
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii274/lovehamr/Noisy%20FE/604_zps4fb27769.jpg)
Now the flywheel. Having never cracked one before I wasn't sure what I was looking for so I took it outside and cleaned it. Low and behold what did I find, but a crack that would at least explain why it's loose in the crank all of the sudden. However the crack doesn't seem to all the way out the FW, it looks like it's only at the crank/bolt area. For you guys who've seen this, does it look like this could be my noise problem? Here are a couple of pics:
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii274/lovehamr/Noisy%20FE/0742_zps21226479.jpg)
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii274/lovehamr/Noisy%20FE/0742a_zps77edef62.jpg)
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Don't know if that's the noise problem or not, but for SURE you need a new flywheel, Steve. And if that crack was causing the flywheel to flex who knows what could be happening. I had a pressure plate once where the bolts holding it to the flywheel were coming loose, and the bolts on the back of the pressure plate that held the release levers in place started hitting on the inside of the bellhousing. Made a godawful racket. You don't by chance see any witness marks inside the bellhousing do you?
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Nope, I haven't seen any witness marks of anything in/on the motor. But it was so freaking loud! I thought I was about to lose a rod or something. :o
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Not sure either how that could be the cause of the noise but hey, it's not everyday one sees a cracked flywheel w/o a major blowup. Lucky, I guess.
Looks like the i.d. of flywheel crank flange was too tight (you mentioned it was a chore to take on and off) and the 'wheel wasn't seated 100% before the crank bolts were tightened. Could be a material flaw but I'll venture that when you had to draw-up the crank bolts with your torque wrench it clicked out before the 'wheel was fully seated. Would like to know the dimensions of flange i.d. versus the crank's o.d. 2X as well to closely checking both sides of the engine's thrust bearing for unusual wear.
A couple other things to look at include the ring gear pattern and the clutch disc hub. Rotate the 'wheel and see if the shiny wear marks from the starter gear move fore and aft (engine side to tranny side) as you rotate the wheel. Also, the disc's center splines may be messed up (loose on the input shaft) from not engaging 100% perpendicular to the crank pilot. The pilot bearing itself should also be closely inspected.
Hope you have a blowproof bell as well. Checkout the holey sheetmetal in some of the streeters!
http://www.google.com/search?q=flywheel+explosions&rls=com.microsoft:en-US:IE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_enUS533&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=c7jvUbq6LsGSyQG7vICYDA&ved=0CEkQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=566
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Right about now, I'd say that noise was a blessing! That flywheel was major damage just waiting to happen! I'd be looking real close inside that bellhousing too. Things can get pretty tight in there.
Just out of curiousity, what brand flywheel was it?
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The flywheel is a fidanza and the bell is a quicktime. Other than that small visible crack there is nothing indicating a problem. The pilot bearing is perfect and smooth in operation and both side of the thrust bearing are good.
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Looking at those pictures, I'd say the flywheel wasn't seated all the way and was periodically wobbling. That would cause the ring gear teeth to hit the starter at the very least.
Any sign of dings on the teeth or the starter bendix / pinion? Internal engine stuff that loud is usually pretty steady and easy to find. One exception I've experienced is cam end play caused by putting an old-style spacer onto a new cam sprocket that has a built-in spacer already. That will cause the cam to "chuck" back-and-forth under certain conditions, with unhappy results :-( Don't think that's your problem here...
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Well guys, thanks for all the suggestions. The thing is back together with a new flywheel and the noise was right back. For any who'd like to post what they hear I'd be glad to read it. In this first video I'd just put the program file into the injector and it doesn't actually start until about 25 seconds in if you want to FF.
http://youtu.be/mVNYdpE_6vc (http://youtu.be/mVNYdpE_6vc)
In this next one I'm under the car and still can't positively locate the sound. It's just something that I've never heard.
http://youtu.be/mVP06Mn_X7g (http://youtu.be/mVP06Mn_X7g)
In this last video the banging sound has gone away and for a minute everything sounds great but now I have a miss that I didn't have before.
http://youtu.be/EdTv0-m7XDI (http://youtu.be/EdTv0-m7XDI)
While I had it running I took ScotiaFE's advice and took my stethoscope all over the thing hitting each runner and each exhaust port; and other than thinking it's up top just because of the cadence and miss, I'm not sure of squat other than it's hurt. What do you guys hear?
Thanks Steve
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I'm going with valveish.
I'd be pulling the heads.
Edit: I've heard that sound more than a few times in my life and it's always in a chamber.
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Man that sounds like either a burned valve, a tight valve, or a bad cross fire.
Have you checked the ignition closely? Bad wires, coil wire arcing to a plug wire? Crossed wires, bad cap?
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my vote is broken cam ....man that sdounds bad ...good luck and I can feel your pain . :'(
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I had a two piece header tube come apart on the last day of Drag Week 2006. Sounded just like a rod knock on the way back down pit road, and I was sure I'd seriously hurt the engine. Found the pipe loose, hooked it back together, problem solved. Moral of the story - check the simple stuff first.
Have you pulled the plugs? Check carefully for bent electrodes, which will indicate shrapnel in the combustion chamber. If you see that, pull the valve cover and look for damage. You can also put your timing light on each plug wire to make sure that each one is firing.
Run the engine with the lights off. Do you see a spark jumping anywhere it shouldn't be? Like between 7 and 8 maybe? Those two plug wires should be separated by at least one other wire if possible, to avoid cross-arcing.
I've never heard a valvetrain noise that isn't in sync with the engine like that, but I have heard a bad rod sound like that before.
Mostly I've just got random thoughts on this. Just start taking it apart a little at a time, Steve, you'll figure it out...
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sounds like a valve is sticking open and the piston is hitting it. I would pull the valve covers and watch each valve through its motion.
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After watching your last video. Where you started on the passenger side of the car and walked around to the drivers side. It sounds like to me its popping out of the exhaust. Something funky with the fuel injection? Or ignition maybe? This noise doesn't sound mechanical to me. Flat cam was my first thought until I watched the last video.
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I watched the videos and read everyones thoughts and they are on the right track....I would pull the cover on the pass side and dissect it carefully...I here a popping in the pass side pipe.That tells me there is something wrong with the intake stuff...Broken spring to a stuck valve...
If the noise has stopped and you have a dead cyl....you now have a target..Check the compression on the dead hole and look at the electrode.....Cory..
As to Jays thoughts....I know a guy who built a brand new engine (Olds V8) because it was knocking bad...The new engine had the knock as well.....They found a bolt stuck between two header tubes....
Check everything....
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I listened with headphones on and it sounds like cam shaft or timing gear problem, might explain the popping out your pipes :(
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It looks like the distributor cap carbon contact is burnt up. Replace the distributor cap center carbon , if removeable, or replace the cap. Bend up the contact on the rotor to mate up with the cap carbon center contact. Good to go...
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You got lucky, that flywheel was getting ready to 'fly the coop'; exit stage right; get outta Dodge; leave the scene of a crime. The crank-flange opening is no longer a perfect, symmetrically round opening with evidence of material loss just to the right of the crack. I don't know Fidanza, but do know Hayes, Rod.
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It looks like the distributor cap carbon contact is burnt up. Replace the distributor cap center carbon , if removeable, or replace the cap. Bend up the contact on the rotor to mate up with the cap carbon center contact. Good to go...
Great catch! I didn't notice that when I first saw the picture. MSD rotors are known for not having the contact up high enough to hit the center carbon contact in the cap. The center carbon contact is supposed to be pointed, and in the picture it looks flat. That happens because the spark is jumping the gap between the center carbon contact in the cap and the rotor, and a spark there will eat away the carbon contact until it is flat, and then you will start to get a miss.
Don't know if this is the whole problem or not, but it could be. Steve, you should replace the cap and rotor, and when you install the rotor bend the steel contact up to make sure it is touching the center carbon contact in the cap.
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For all those who read and commented on my FE's issue, thanks for taking the time to help. If any of you were wondering WTF it actually was, here you go. After being so annoyed with it that I didn't go out in the garage for about a month I finally got to it today. All of these pics are in my photobucket account under "noisy FE" if you want to take a look at the full size ones.
http://s266.photobucket.com/user/lovehamr/library/Noisy%20FE?sort=9&start=20&page=1 (http://s266.photobucket.com/user/lovehamr/library/Noisy%20FE?sort=9&start=20&page=1)
The short of it is that it was a broken rocker arm. What follows is what I found and surmised what went on. Any other opinions are more than welcome so don't feel the need to keep something back, this is a learning experience for me.
When I took the pass VC off this last time after making the videos (turns out that was a bad idea) the top half of a rocker fell out and dropped down to the floor. Remember that I'd had the VCs off of it already, felt all of the rockers and nothing felt out of place. I believe that the last rocker pic shows why I didn't feel anything wrong the first time the VCs were off. You'll notice that, unlike the pushrod side, the valve side fracture shows numerous stress fracture lines indicating repeated compression and rarefaction before catastrophic failure. Because of this I believe that the pushrod side went first (starting that godawful noise) but the valve side didn't fail until I was making the videos, hence my "bad idea" comment. Here are a few pics of the offending POS.
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii274/lovehamr/Noisy%20FE/IMG_0856_zps7ee493ad.jpg)
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii274/lovehamr/Noisy%20FE/IMG_0857_zps5f3cb22c.jpg)
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii274/lovehamr/Noisy%20FE/IMG_0858_zpscdca908d.jpg)
Once the rocker failed completely, it allowed the lifter and pushrod to slap about willie-nilley breaking one lifter and bending the pushrod for that rocker. Luckily the lifters stayed straight in the bores and the cam is OK. Here are a few pics of that.
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii274/lovehamr/Noisy%20FE/IMG_0853_zpsa3ee0e85.jpg)
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii274/lovehamr/Noisy%20FE/IMG_0854_zps7be46730.jpg)
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii274/lovehamr/Noisy%20FE/IMG_0855_zpse4300d57.jpg)
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii274/lovehamr/Noisy%20FE/IMG_0859_zps88d112ef.jpg)
I hate it when something is posted in a forum and then never followed up on, it's like reading a book that the author never finishes. So there you go guys, no more mystery.
Now, what rockers do I need? ;)
Steve
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Yikes
What rockers are those?
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T&D!
http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thread/1378766821/PRW+rockers
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Yikes
What rockers are those?
Those appear to be narrow Comp Cams (Dove) rockers. What spring pressures are you running with that roller cam? What are the specs on the cam?
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I'd say they are POP rockers.
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PRW's?
http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/message/1378780530/PRW+Rockers....
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PRW's?
http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/message/1378780530/PRW+Rockers....
The one that failed in this thread are POP rockers. Made in the good old USA and advertised on the FE forum.
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/-strse-43/FE-Ford-Roller-Rocker/Detail.bok
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ScotiaFE is right on this one, they are POP rockers BUT I must add that I bought them used over on that other forum. They appeared to be in good condition when I got them but obviously I can't say that they didn't have issues then. For that reason I'll not bash POP. I'm also using one of his oil pumps and it seems to be absolutely first rate.
The cam is a Comp with;
Int .645" and 242 @.050
Ex .635" and 248 @.050
Lobe sep is 110
I can't remember what the spring rates are and can't seem to find it in my notes but they do match the cam.
Steve
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I haven't used a set, but T&D street rockers seem to be the rocker of choice since Erson stopped
I hear they are pretty nice, probably going to go with a set on my 445
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The issue I see with these rockers and others, whether US or another country of origin
is the use of the stock shaft @ 0.842ish and the thin strap that holds it on the shaft.
The T&D rocker shaft and the old Erson setup are 0.625 inch shaft which allows for a much
thicker strap.
Lets face it, the cam that is spec'd here is not a tiny cam. The springs would have to be in the 500 + lbs range.
I would not consider POP rockers to be "HEAVY DUTY". jmo
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The real issue with any of these rockers is that they are made out of aluminum. Aluminum has a fatigue life, and every aluminum rocker arm will fail when it gets to the end of its fatigue life. Some are better than others, of course, and with light spring pressures many will last a lifetime. BUT, when stressed, all of them will eventually fail. At Drag Week yesterday at Indy I was walking through the pits and a guy ran up to me asking if I had a replacement T&D rocker; he had one of the good ones that had just split in half. Unfortunately it was for a small block and the spares I had with me were FE rockers, so no joy for him. But even the really good, expensive T&D rockers will fail; Jack Miller had a few fail on Drag Week in 2007, at Wisconsin International Raceway, on his supercharged FE.
What we really need is a decent steel rocker arm for a reasonable price, like the old Isky rockers.
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Now all we have to find is a FE addicted guy with a big fast mill and will to make parts at
pretty much cost.
Hmmm... now where would we find a guy like that?
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ScotiaFE is right on this one, they are POP rockers BUT I must add that I bought them used over on that other forum. They appeared to be in good condition when I got them but obviously I can't say that they didn't have issues then. For that reason I'll not bash POP. I'm also using one of his oil pumps and it seems to be absolutely first rate.
The cam is a Comp with;
Int .645" and 242 @.050
Ex .635" and 248 @.050
Lobe sep is 110
I can't remember what the spring rates are and can't seem to find it in my notes but they do match the cam.
Steve
I seem to remember Doug saying he had a problem with his early rockers and will replace any problem. Since you bought these second hand my wag is you got early parts.
Of course not forgetting what Jay said about aluminum fatigue life.
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Now all we have to find is a FE addicted guy with a big fast mill and will to make parts at
pretty much cost.
Hmmm... now where would we find a guy like that?
You're a funny guy, Howie ;D ;D
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The issue I see with these rockers and others, whether US or another country of origin
is the use of the stock shaft @ 0.842ish and the thin strap that holds it on the shaft.
The T&D rocker shaft and the old Erson setup are 0.625 inch shaft which allows for a much
thicker strap.
Lets face it, the cam that is spec'd here is not a tiny cam. The springs would have to be in the 500 + lbs range.
I would not consider POP rockers to be "HEAVY DUTY". jmo
On the other hand, the smaller diameter hollow shaft with the four holes for 3/8" rocker studs/bolts are weaker around the bolt holes. Even with the end stands, you see cases of broken Erson shafts but don't see as many broken .842 diameter shafts with end stands as far as I know.
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I think that's right; I've broken those Erson shafts just getting them on and off the engine because they are hollow with the smaller diameter. The T&D race parts oil through the pushrods, so the shafts are solid and pretty durable.
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I didn't see one in the photos, but are these bushed or non-bushed rockers?
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Non-bushed