FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: DuckRyder on June 25, 2023, 09:14:58 PM
-
We are dealing with a 445 FE (the same wear appeared when it was a 390 as well).
It has
- C8AE-H heads.
- Erson Rockers
- Crower 280R "Street Roller"
- Crower 280R HIPPO Lifters (same part number as a LIMA motor)
- Crower Springs - 68385-2 390/405 open
- Smith Pushrods
- 90 Holley Jets in the oil feeds
I am having issues with rocker arms adjusters wearing rapidly, i had told smith to drill the pushrods for oiling in case i wanted to do that, perhaps that was a mistake. The adjusters wear fairly quickly to the point they have a nipple matching the pushrod oiling hole. (we are talking 1000 miles or so) I have used, the Erson, Smith Brothers and Harland sharp adjusters with similar results. The Springs are the ones recommended for the cam, and are not in coil bind, i measured the pushrods way back when and don't remember the length.
I am considering:
- Rechecking valve train geometry
- Reordering pushrods without oiling holes
- Decreasing Spring Pressure (what spring) Maybe Comp 924-16 347LBS/in
- Putting a 300 6 in it
- Putting a Coyote in it
- putting a Howards C6OZ-6250-B.in it
Only sorta joking with those last 3
Any ideas?
-
So, if I understand you correctly, you are using pushrods drilled for oiling, but the lifters are not sending oil thru the pushrods? If so, I am not surprised that you are wearing the cup end of the adjusters, as your cups have holes to allow the oil the rockers are spraying into the cup, to drain down to the lifter, rather than "fill up" the cup, to keep the adjuster ball swimming in oil. If this is indeed the case, I would switch to pushrods without holes. I ran the erson roller rockers for many years, with regular ball and cup pushrods (no holes), and never had any such issues.
-
Well, I wouldn’t decrease the spring loads or you’ll run into another problem. FWIW, it may be a combination of low spring load and poor material that’s causing the problem now. 400 lbs open is hydraulic roller territory, not solid, even if it is a “street” roller.
Your HIPPO lifters are oiling, which means if the pushrods are oiling, you’re getting oil through the pushrods and through the heads as well.
Never been an Erson rocker fan, my gut is leaning on just poor material. Any time you have significant wear like that, one material is not able to handle the other material.
I have zero confidence in cam companies to recommend a particular valve spring. They have no ability to measure your install heights, know how far your valves are sunk, know how heavy your valves are, etc. Your spring load is light and you could be having some valvetrain control loss issues along with poor material.
-
Are these the same pushrods everytime there is an issue or have you changed them already? I am using Crower hippo lifters with Smith Bros. pushrods(NON oiling) and Erson rockers. I changed the adjuster screws for some Harland Sharps. They were the closest dimensionally and had the nicest radius. Spring pressure is around 700lbs open. As you know, the rockers are needle bearing, so a 90 jet is not much of a restriction. I am running around a .060" restrictor and pre-oiling showed plenty of oil flow. I have not had any wear issues like you mentioned. I would swap the pushrods for non-oiling and put a smaller jet in for a restrictor.
-
I run erson rockers on My 445 FE. The rocker body's are stout and i like um. 750lb open, shaft oiling only, 6800-7200 rpm. Only minimal probs with rockers. 1 broken shaft but the DSC shafts and my modified supports took care of that. Have had 2 rockers than I had to replace the needle bearings in (over 70 passes) but otherwise no issues with the rockers or adjusters.
-
Rory, You understand correctly.
Nightmist, yes the same pushrods.
Brent, i wondered if the lifters were oiling through the pushrods, but when i primed it last time that did not seem to be the case, i will test this again and i guess if they really should be oiling and aren't i need to investigate that as well.
Im also now remembering there were two springs specified at the time and i may have used the heaver spring - I thought i had run this down a while back but cant find it. It wasn't much heavier IIRC.
-
Rory, You understand correctly.
Nightmist, yes the same pushrods.
Brent, i wondered if the lifters were oiling through the pushrods, but when i primed it last time that did not seem to be the case, i will test this again and i guess if they really should be oiling and aren't i need to investigate that as well.
Im also now remembering there were two springs specified at the time and i may have used the heaver spring - I thought i had run this down a while back but cant find it. It wasn't much heavier IIRC.
What's the part number on the lifters?
Typically, you want the feed hole on the lifter to be 90° to where the oiling is coming from. On a BBF, they oil the same as a Cleveland, which is 90° to the way that a SBF/FE oils. With a hydraulic lifter, it doesn't make a difference, but it makes a huge difference on a solid lifter, because it will pass oil when the pushrod is not making contact with the lifter. The link bars are typically the same between the BBF and FE lifters, but the oil holes can be different. If it's not oiling through the lifters/pushrods (unless the lifter feeds are plugged), that could be the reason.
-
I had this exact problem, pushrod oiling holes and such. In my case I was using Isky iron rockers. It wasn't so much the oiling hole itself but the pushrod cup was slightly too big to match ball of the adjuster. The contact area between the two was too small made worse by the oiling hole being there. It wore the ball end exactly as you described. I changed to a spair set of pushrods I had that fit better, no problems in about 5000 miles.....Jim Kramer
-
Brent i will have to look the part number up, might take me a bit i'm away at the moment and receipts are spread across several places.
Jim, thank you.
-
I had this exact problem, pushrod oiling holes and such. In my case I was using Isky iron rockers. It wasn't so much the oiling hole itself but the pushrod cup was slightly too big to match ball of the adjuster. The contact area between the two was too small made worse by the oiling hole being there. It wore the ball end exactly as you described. I changed to a spair set of pushrods I had that fit better, no problems in about 5000 miles.....Jim Kramer
I've seen this issue - but it's been many years ago. Pushrod cup diameter versus adjuster ball diameter incompatible - line contact.
-
Not having any luck so far on lifter part number, maybe this pic will help.
Found what at I think is the pushrod length @ 9.062 - does that even sound in the ballpark?
Most of these parts are Circa 2005/2008 IIRC
-
These are the FE specific lifters with pin oiling:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRyYJvV5/20230703-102352.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
My pushrods are 8.980" effective length, but there are so many variables- deck height, head gasket thickness, which heads and if milled or not, rocker brand/stand height, adjuster brand and placement, cam base circle diameter, etc. Yours are prolly close. For instance, my heads have been milled to death, so shorter pushrods.
-
What's the part number on the lifters?
Crower 66216H-16
Also Springs are Crower 68385X2-16 = 432 lbs./in.
The cam part number is Crower 16462.
-
Lots of really unrelated questions and answers have been posted here already. Many of them are both important and correct. But most of them are not going to cause - or fix the problem. It's a material, dimensional, or finish problem causing rapid wear. You already said you've tried multiple adjusters from several manufacturers. It simply must be the pushrods or the rockers - or possibly (unlikely) the oil you are using.
Even with no oil up through the pushrod you're going to get enough splash to do the job as long as it's showing signs of adequate "top end" oil under the valve covers. Unless the piss hole in the rocker is not aimed at the pushrod cup - or if it is not drilled at all. The wrong lifter potential thing is 100% correct - but is not likely to be this particular issue. Some pushrods have a full round looking cup that - if the diameter is too snug - might close themselves off from spray only oiling. Others have a cone shaped upper that would allow splash to reside in them no matter how accurate the fit to the adjuster is.
-
Thanks Barry
Its a bad week for Erson Rockers (Hi TunnelWedge.)
Pulled it apart and was going to run through the measurements, take some videos and so forth see if you all could spot any gotchas ... adjuster for #7 intake is laying in the head... ???
I'll pull it tomorrow and triage.... if i cant repair the rocker i'll have to access if i want to drop a grand or more on a new set of rollers or do something different...
-
If you decide to change to cups without an oil supply hole and your geometry check (or re-check) turns out to verify the existing push rod length, contact Smith Bros. about returning your push rods for a "re-work" where they remove-and-replace cups with the un-drilled versions. They have offered that as a prior customer service in the past and the price is significantly less than a complete set of new push rods. Good luck.
-
Thank You SS, had not even thought about that.
I'll be back with some pictures. Rocker is unsalvageable ... sort of upset with myself as apparently i did not tighten that adjuster last time around.
-
So a post mortem via my project thread elsewhere.
Alright, so:
A while back i decided to investigate a mild ticking (Mrs Duckryder says I am deaf, maybe she's right.) and found one of the rocker adjusters laying in the head. Apparently i did not tighten it of did not tighten it well.
Some further investigation found the corresponding rocker shagged.
(https://www.rangerxlt.com/images/forums/vehicles/F100/Engine/ErsonCarnage1.jpeg)
(https://www.rangerxlt.com/images/forums/vehicles/F100/Engine/ErsonCarnage2.jpeg)
I tried to buy just one and could find anyone with a good one. Was able to sell them to someone who needed some shafts and parts.
(https://www.rangerxlt.com/images/forums/vehicles/F100/Engine/Harland3.jpeg)
(https://www.rangerxlt.com/images/forums/vehicles/F100/Engine/Harland4.jpeg)
(https://www.rangerxlt.com/images/forums/vehicles/F100/Engine/Harland5.jpeg)
This did have the benefit of finally letting me put PBF valve Covers on.
(https://www.rangerxlt.com/images/forums/vehicles/F100/Engine/445PBF2.jpeg)
Now to tidy some wiring and start cleaning.
I'm cautiously optimistic of making it to ford fest. :wink:
I did order new pushrods from smith brothers they are slightly different in the ball cups in addition to the lack of oiling much as Barry mentioned.
Keep fingers crossed for me.