FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: 62_BattleBird on June 23, 2023, 10:36:47 AM
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https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-550-1076 Has anybody run this system on their dual quad FE? Forgive my ignorance, but would this be a correct fit (I'm using the Trick Flow Tunnel Wedge 2x4)? I'm seriously considering going the EFI route and really like the sort of "original" look this would give. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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I've ordered it from Summit. It's been a month and the estimated ship date was a couple days ago. Now the estimated shipping date is 7/27. So while I can't offer any help on how well it works, I can tell you order now if you want it because it's gonna be a bit of a wait.
That said my tuner who's been doing this since the 90's has stated the terminator x is THE way to go. He has promised me that I'll be VERY happy with it.
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I've ordered it from Summit. It's been a month and the estimated ship date was a couple days ago. Now the estimated shipping date is 7/27. So while I can't offer any help on how well it works, I can tell you order now if you want it because it's gonna be a bit of a wait.
That said my tuner who's been doing this since the 90's has stated the terminator x is THE way to go. He has promised me that I'll be VERY happy with it.
That’s great to hear! We’ll, not the delay, but you know what I mean lol. So to your knowledge this shouldn’t cause any fit issues? I guess I was worried because I’m still a bit confused on the mounting of the carbs on the FE (that it’s backwards or whatever) and it seemed these wouldn’t fit next to each other longwise (I hope that makes sense). Please forgive my ignorance, but I’m admittedly a newbie and this is my first build. Thanks in advance!
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I've ordered it from Summit. It's been a month and the estimated ship date was a couple days ago. Now the estimated shipping date is 7/27.
If you had ordered it from us (PBF) you'd saved a couple of bucks (O.K., not much less as there just isn't much margin left ::)), but I would have been honest and stated to you that Holley has been moving the "Estimated Ship Date" out 30-days at a time, so we really have no idea of when they actually might ship it; therefore, just give a partial deposit (vs. hitting your card for the full amount! :o) on the order and you'll pay the remainder when we actually do ship it to you. ;D
Scott.
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How do you mount those on a 2x4 Ford intake? Didn't Ford use side hung float bowls on them? Those look to imitate the center hung bowls a nd should be longer.
(https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/xlarge/hly-550-1076_kt_xl.jpg)
That might be part of the shipping delay while Holley comes up with a fix.
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I have a single Holley Terminator X Stealth on one of my cars and like it better than the Sniper or Edelbrock setups I have other cars. I think tunnel-ram style linkage to mount the throttle bodies sideways would need to be well thought out given how sensitive the EFI is to throttle position so the IAC can operate where it should.
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I've been considering similar, maybe not this specific throttle body setup, but a Holley dual quad EFI. My Prime Interest would be the ability to run both a gas (110 VP) and a methanol program using the Terminator X. Anybody know if the T-Rex will support such an effort?
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How do you mount those on a 2x4 Ford intake? Didn't Ford use side hung float bowls on them? Those look to imitate the center hung bowls a nd should be longer.
(https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/xlarge/hly-550-1076_kt_xl.jpg)
That might be part of the shipping delay while Holley comes up with a fix.
This is my exact worry; I hope someone in here can answer before I buy em
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I have the single version (not the X, just the stealth) I'm installing on my Mustang, it's pretty much the same size as a standard 4150 Holley with center hung float bowls, no way your fitting two lengthwise on a Ford 2x4 intake, sorry to say.....
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Plus, the original 2x4 carbs only had one metering block per carb with the secondary one being a plate. These have two "blocks" each, plus the cathedral bowls. Of course, I haven't measured and everything could have been scaled down some.
Pat
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Since you are using a TW intake, it should not be an issue to mount them sideways. Order a TR linkage kit for SBF/TR or 460Ford/TR from Weiand and you should be able to make it work smoothly. The air filter housing should still fit for a 2x4 Ford manifold. Joe-JDC
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Since you are using a TW intake, it should not be an issue to mount them sideways. Order a TR linkage kit for SBF/TR or 460Ford/TR from Weiand and you should be able to make it work smoothly. The air filter housing should still fit for a 2x4 Ford manifold. Joe-JDC
Crap! It didn't even occur to me that it might not fit on mine.
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Plus, the original 2x4 carbs only had one metering block per carb with the secondary one being a plate. These have two "blocks" each, plus the cathedral bowls. Of course, I haven't measured and everything could have been scaled down some.
Pat
I'm way behind the curve on this. Why do we have bowls on an FI unit?
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Your injectors have to be mounted somewhere. If you don't use an EFI manifold with injector bosses, then the injectors must be in the unit. Those are inside the units. Joe-JDC
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Plus, the original 2x4 carbs only had one metering block per carb with the secondary one being a plate. These have two "blocks" each, plus the cathedral bowls. Of course, I haven't measured and everything could have been scaled down some.
Pat
I'm way behind the curve on this. Why do we have bowls on an FI unit?
The bowls are simply aesthetic elements to make the unit resemble a Holley carburetor. They don't hold fuel; but have two fuel injectors on each end hidden inside the "bowl".
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Seems obvious now that you said it. I think the term "bowls" is what threw me.
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Since you are using a TW intake, it should not be an issue to mount them sideways. Order a TR linkage kit for SBF/TR or 460Ford/TR from Weiand and you should be able to make it work smoothly. The air filter housing should still fit for a 2x4 Ford manifold. Joe-JDC
Thank you SO MUCH for the insight! I'll do some looking around and if you wouldn't mind, I'll reply to this thread with what I find to be sure it's correct. Thanks again.
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I think you will still need an adapter the mount the TBs, i know they make them. I don't think a square bore is precisely square.
I also wonder if you could mount a non stealth TB in the rear position....
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Since you are using a TW intake, it should not be an issue to mount them sideways.
Yes, it would be necessary to turn the throttle bodies sideways in order to fit the Ford O.E.M. intakes; note that this does require either an adapter to turn them or some welding and machining of the carb. pad. ;)
Also we have run T.W. and T.P. single plane intakes with carbs mounted sideways before and although at W.O.T. all is fine (as well as the intake functions that is) but at part throttle we definitely have experienced left to right side of engine fueling biases. :o
As far as with E.F.I. T.B. injection, if all eight throttles tip simultaneously with commensurate four corner fueling each, then that would be superior from the fueling distribution stand point, but low-speed throttle transition control might sorta suffer! ::)
Scott.
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>but low-speed throttle transition control might sorta suffer!
I dunno, there seems to be a little "magic" that happens when you place carb barrels over the runners on a tunnel ram. With careful tuning, it's almost like every cylinder gets one and is happy about it. I ran two Edelbrock 1406s on a Wieand t-ram on a 302. I tried a bit of delay between carb one and two and the engine didn't seem to like it so much, kinda "meh". At 1:1, it was "OK, lets go". The 60' on the track was same as with a single 650DP on a Air Gap intake.
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Anyone seen / got a picture of what the offy adapters look like on a TW or TP with dual holleys?
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https://youtu.be/zW6iXWWbgvE
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/sniper_efi/sniper_4-barrel_systems/sniper_2/parts/550-511-3XX?utm_term=holley%20sniper%202&utm_campaign=Google+Search+-+Holley+Sniper+EFI+-+Brand&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&hsa_acc=7848552874&hsa_cam=944068732&hsa_grp=155326550590&hsa_ad=666205894052&hsa_src=g&hsa_tgt=kwd-326803444791&hsa_kw=holley%20sniper%202&hsa_mt=e&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gclid=Cj0KCQjwk96lBhDHARIsAEKO4xYgikD78LHGJ5eb5Jp_eMQj2uKjgPIy9wAAiinpc8PvkYGC1Lr_MLAaArBkEALw_wcB
New Holley Sniper II. This looks like it might mount up inline on a 2x4 intake.
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https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-550-1076 Has anybody run this system on their dual quad FE? Forgive my ignorance, but would this be a correct fit (I'm using the Trick Flow Tunnel Wedge 2x4)? I'm seriously considering going the EFI route and really like the sort of "original" look this would give. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
I could buy 2 new sets of carbs for my TW and still have money left over for gas.
And no electric parts to break down.
And you need lots of gas to operate a TW.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3NFzqrzv/Fuel-stop2.jpg)
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My cheap ass 650's. Work great.
It runs on the front carb until about 3300 rpm
then the back carb will start to open. I have worked the transition slot and timing.
In 4th I'm legally speeding on any public highway @3200 rpm. Which would be illegal.
It gets ok mileage. The trailer put a dent in that. I was stopping all the time.
I have a stock gas tank. A bigger tank would make difference.
I have about 11.5 of vac @ idle. I can run it on 87 if I have to. And I have.
It's a highway engine and car. No electronics on the engine.
I don't use a choke on either carb and I have no problem starting it on cool wet morning.
I think if you have the coin and like the look those on top of TW with some nicely done
plumbing/wiring. And well done linkage and a nice gas tank to go with it.
That would be a really nice show piece.
Depending how you use the TW and the type of engine under it will be part of the equation.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5D1dpyg/IMG-20210623-082734455-BURST000-COVER.jpg)
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Back about a zillion years ago, when Holley first started talking about EFI, I was writing for Super Ford Magazine. I called Holley and asked if they'd given any thought to doing a package for factory dual quads. They first told me that it'd be six months before they went to dual quads, and after several months they'd decided not to do it at all, "For the forseeable future."
I told them I had a car to work on---Brother Lon's '67 Mustang with 427 TP engine---and offered to do all the work if they'd help me with the tech stuff. We agreed, and over a few weeks, installed two complete systems, with separate electronics, but a single paired fuel delivery system. I won't go through the whole scenario, but we did put together the very first dual system that Holley was aware of. By the way, it worked great when we got it all sorted out. I wrote several articles for Super Ford as we did the work, and Lon's car was on the cover when we wrapped it all up.
Now, to your proposed project. First, throttle body EFI systems that have the injectors mounted in the throttle bodies are set up in such a way, that all four injectors run all the time. They are not staged, with primary and secondary barrels like a carb has. Therefore, with two throttle bodies, you'll have one injector for each cylinder, and all eight will run all the time. There will be no imbalance if you were to mount the TBs sideways.
Don't expect to be able to switch to methanol and use the original TB injectors. Methanol is a wonderful competition fuel. It's much more desirable than gasoline. But stoichiometric values for gasoline are about 12.5/1 if you are looking for greatest performance (14.5/1 for driving down the street). The equivalent performance value for methanol is more like 4/1. Very likely injectors for TBI aren't available that are that large, and the system isn't designed with enough tuning latitude to work. Drag-'n'-drive engines such as are used in Drag Week have a completely separate set of eight njectors for the 'drive' activity on gasoline, and use sixteen much larger injectors to provide the methanol for the 'drag' activity.
For what it's worth, I'll never use carburetors again. EFI opens up a whole new world of performance.
KS
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So would something like this work? Thanks again for all the insight!
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I think it would look awesome. The sideways big Holley's look great on the TW.
Tuning would be interesting.
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Very likely injectors for TBI aren't available that are that large, and the system isn't designed with enough tuning latitude to work. Drag-'n'-drive engines such as are used in Drag Week have a completely separate set of eight njectors for the 'drive' activity on gasoline, and use sixteen much larger injectors to provide the methanol for the 'drag' activity.
I'm talking bracket racing, in the 450~650 HP range, not 8 second Drag Week cars. The dual Holley TBs provide a total of 800 lb/hr which should be plenty for 650HP on methanol. Rule of Thumb for most bracket engines is 1 lb/hp/hr on methanol. The TBs should be able to handle that at less than 100% duty cycle.
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Aside from differences in tuning parameters, the materials used in manufacturing the injectors for TBI injection are unlikely to be 'happy' if one were to expect them to ingest methanol on a regular basis.
KS