FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: fryedaddy on May 31, 2023, 01:57:14 AM
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i fired my 428 up after sitting for 9 months. next time i tried to start it,it would not fire up.the rotor button had a hole burned in the center medal piece,the ball in the inside top center of the cap looked melted and the mech advance springs were rusted,condensation i guess.i pulled the cap and wires off without paying attention to where they were on the cap.i spun the motor over and found top dead but problem is it looks like the rotor is pointing between two plug wires but it is closer to the one to the left side of the pointer.i did not pull the distributor and it was running great.i ordered a new cap and rotor but i wanted to make sure and wire it back right.why is pointer not looking like its pointing directly at wire?
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Advance. Your engine doesn’t run at TDC, so if you turn it over to where your timing is usually set, you will see the rotor point at the terminal.
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bbm heads.my timing is set at 33,are you saying i need to put the pointer at 33 before tdc
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I think Brent means your base timing like mine is 18deg @ idle and 32deg @ 3000rpm if you didn't pull the dizzy you should be fine those MSD's are real bad for rusting
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thanks guys.it worked.
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bbm heads.my timing is set at 33,are you saying i need to put the pointer at 33 before tdc
Roll the engine over so that it's 20-30° before TDC on the compression stroke, put the distributor in with the rotor pointed at #1 plug wire on the cap, fire it up, set timing back to where you had it.
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i replaced the msd cap and rotor,hooked it back up and it wont start.remember it was running fine till it burned a hole in the rotor button after sitting for several months.the springs were rusted,do you think the pickup in the distributor may be rusted and not working properly??
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Have you checked the silly stuff like plug leads are going to the right plugs? and do you have spark at the plugs?
could be magnetic pickup or coil
A friends xy falcon circuit race car had not been run for years took it out ran fine all day long went to load it on the trailer and it would not start after hours of looking at things it was the magnetic pickup died he went through 2 new pickups and the 3rd is still working now years later
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i didn't change anything.it was running fine then it burned a hole in the rotor tip and would not start,i replaced the cap and rotor,still wont start.i double checked the wiring but it has not been messed with since running.it almost has to be the box,pickup,or the coil
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It dose seem like it could be box pickup or coil you can test the box msd box instructions should have how to test that msd should have a way to test the pickup and coil too
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https://www.cpperformance.com/Instructions/MSD_Troubleshooting.pdf
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Wire it w/o box for a test.
I keep a back up set of plug in leads for 12v and coil connections in car for the next time the box decides it does not want to work anymore. ( distributor is a Ready To Run).
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My guess would be the pickup. I've replaced 3...or 4 (can't remember now) of them in the last several years. They're junk, and they can "check" good, but still be bad. Twice I got stranded from this issue. I now keep a complete spare distributor in the trunk, just in case. It's easier to just swap it out, than to mess with taking the pickup out. But I also carry a spare pickup with the spare distributor. Yeah, they're that bad.
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I don't put any stock in the "test" that MSD says to do to check the box. I made this video 6 years ago, I think after the 1st or 2nd failure I had. I was trying to find anything that could be causing the issue I was having at the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85PLiA8qIr0
Jumping the pickup wires should produce an immediate spark, at least according to MSD. When I did that, I got nothing, repeatedly. That alone should indicate a bad box. But when I went to ANY other ground on the car, it sparked immediately. My box is wired completely independent of everything else on the car, so no external cause could be an issue. The car would not start until I replaced the pickup. Maybe they had a period of faulty production, I don't know, because like JB mentioned above, my last pickup has seemed to be okay for about 3 years now.
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I don't put any stock in the "test" that MSD says to do to check the box. I made this video 6 years ago, I think after the 1st or 2nd failure I had. I was trying to find anything that could be causing the issue I was having at the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85PLiA8qIr0
Jumping the pickup wires should produce an immediate spark, at least according to MSD. When I did that, I got nothing, repeatedly. That alone should indicate a bad box. But when I went to ANY other ground on the car, it sparked immediately. My box is wired completely independent of everything else on the car, so no external cause could be an issue. The car would not start until I replaced the pickup. Maybe they had a period of faulty production, I don't know, because like JB mentioned above, my last pickup has seemed to be okay for about 3 years now.
First pickup had lasted for 2 engines in that race car. But when the pickup died would of been close to the time you had your DOA new pickups. I will say with the car sitting long times between uses inside the msd looked really bad everything under the cap that could rust was very crusty and rusted. Im not sure if that is any part of the prob but it sure dose not look like it could be good. I think i only ever had a box die in my car
"lost all the photos of mine on the track this was last photos before it got sold to buy the fairlane"
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Very cool looking XY jb. Love the way it sits.
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Very cool looking XY jb. Love the way it sits.
Thanks was alot of fun should of never sold it there worth a fortune now.
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i have a new pickup to put in,i already had it,and i have a new coil on the way friday.if one of those dont fix it it s probably the box.the coil tested bad,i had a couple stock 50 year old coils but they tested bad too.
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i put a new coil on today and it still wont fire up.i unplugged the coil wire from the dist cap and put a spark plug in it.i turned the engine over and the plug would spark one time only.then after s few more tries it would spark again.or if i turned the key off and back on it would spark one more time.is this normal or should i try something different.i hate to keep throwing parts at it.any ideas?
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What "box" are you running ? How old is it ? Is it an older analog box or newer digital box ?
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im running a digital 6al.its 3 or 4 years old.im going to buy a new box,what should i buy,i have seen videos of people throwing the digital 6al in the trash can.anyone know of a good box that dont cost a fortune.
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If your 6AL box is working now, then it's working. As for any other boxes, any box used for electronic ignitions can work as long as you wire it properly. There are instructions online for any box you could imagine. You can use a Ford Duraspark box, or even a GM HEI module. The HEI is better because it has the ability to increase dwell. But you have to use the factory module or an Accel module to get the dwell benefit.
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i unplugged the wire going to the magnetic pick up that goes to the distributor. i unplugged the coil wire from the cap and put a sparkplug in it and i turned the key on, i shorted out the wire going to the pickup from the box and it would make one little spark then you could short it out several more times with no spark, it should spark every time i short it out.i think this indicates a bad box even though the box lights up when you turn the key on. is the original 6al better than the digital 6al?i drive mostly on the street,but its usually short drives near home,run it through the gears a few times and put it up.i dont think i need the features of some of the high end race boxes but i would like to have one that will work good for a fairly hot street motor.
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Where did you short the pickup wires, or did you just jump them? Did you watch the video I posted, and what I wrote?
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i watched the video,very interesting,i tried it like you did and i tried it like the msd video says,either way it would not spark ,and if it did spark it was one little spark then nothing
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That certainly sounds like the box, but I'm always hesitant to say something absolutely when it comes to electronics. Unfortunately, the only real test is shelling out money for a backup in case of a failure, or in your case, to determine if it's the actual cause.
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It sounds like the capacitor has failed. Obviously a CD box with a bad cap is just a box.
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My son is a electronics nut.i gave him my digital 6al and he took the back off and the first thing he did was smell the capacitors,at least 5 of them in there,he said one or more of them smelled burnt,he has all that stuff in stock in his shop to fix it. he is going to test everything and replace anything bad or questionable.i told him to film it,especially if he is successful.
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Had a fairly new 6al digital box go bad recently. Began by running funny and then a no start condition. Replaced it with an older one and I am currently waiting for MSD to repair the new one. There is also a sequence to view what the red led light is doing when you turn the key- which can point you into a general direction of what may be bad.
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i ran all those tests on it.the box still goes through its sequence,but tests bad.i believe the rust in the distributor caused it to fry everything from the box,coil,cap and rotor.i have a spare box but it is bad too,conked out about 4 years ago that i could send back,i just never got around to it. has anyone ran a msd street box?
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Don't be a slave to MSD. You can use any OEM or aftermarket module. Yes, even a Ford Duraspark box. Or an HEI. Accel makes a very nice HEI module that is as good as the factory originals in that it increases coil dwell with RPM. All the module does in to interpret the pickup signal and then interrupt the coil's field current, which causes the spark. By using a non capacitive box, like the MSD, you are just back to the standard inductive ignition.
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can someone give me a part number for a good module that will work with my pro billit distributor
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These HEI modules will work: D1906, DM1906, LX301, TP45. You would also need the heat sink for the module: https://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Parts-19351887-Airflow-Sensor/dp/B0012P2EQU/ref=d_pd_day0_vft_none_sccl_3_5/144-8759243-6838835?pd_rd_w=vXU2s&content-id=amzn1.sym.8ca997d7-1ea0-4c8f-9e14-a6d756b83e30&pf_rd_p=8ca997d7-1ea0-4c8f-9e14-a6d756b83e30&pf_rd_r=ZJ7QZ16XE4X9ADMKVQZK&pd_rd_wg=6Dny7&pd_rd_r=40f8be70-d9bc-4f1e-9d16-ad7e0f026847&pd_rd_i=B0012P2EQU&psc=1 You also need the heat sink grease to make sure the module transfers that heat to the sink: https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Thermal-Grease-Compound-Heatsinks/dp/B005VULWLA/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?keywords=heat+sink+grease&qid=1686596608&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExWjRCM0pKR1dBRE9JJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNDEwMjIxMjNSNVdETjZDVzdXMSZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMTUyNTQzMzcxU0owM0YwOFpJTCZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=
There may be adapters out there for any number of modules, but you'll have to search. And you can always splice in whatever connector you want. I made my own connector for a Duraspark distributor to an MSD box.
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thanks for the part numbers,as cheap as these modules are you would think that it would make the several hundred dollar boxes be hard to sell.
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i bought the accel module.i will have to do some research on how to wire it up,not sure if you use both wires coming off the distributor.
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You do use both wires: https://www.camaros.net/threads/remote-mount-hei-module.462339/
Also, the NAPA TP45 module is the same performance wise as the very best high performance GM 990 module. About the same price as the Accel module.
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im going to try the accel module,but my son found a bad diode in the msd box,he said it burned up first so the rest of the box would not be damaged and it would also be a easy fix when repairing..
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rewired my ignition with the accel module,fired up instantly.i left my harness for the box in the car,if my son gets the box fixed,i will have a backup.
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...if my son gets the box fixed,i will have a backup.
It is more practical to get spare 4-pin HEI modules since you can carry those as spares in the glove box along with a spare pickup. Just like the old days of carrying a spare set of points and condenser. You got the heat sink and the grease too?
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my son made me a custom heat sink,it even has a small computer fan on it,and he had some military grade paste to put on it.its overkill but thats ok.you are right,i have a extra coil new in the box,new pickup,all i need is another 4 pin module and i will be set with about everything i need in case of failure.it may be me but my engine seems more responsive with the new module vs the box.it even idles without a choke in just a few seconds from starting.
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The difference is that instead of a capacitive ignition, you are back to using an inductive ignition, which is what the factories have been using for more than 100 years. An inductive ignition has a longer duration spark, which is better for a good burn, and since electricity is passive, it has just as much energy as a CD in most cases. CD is great when you have a hard to light burn but offer no advantage over inductive ignition in most nearly all street applications.
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no doubt,its more responsive and it is no longer cold natured,you do not have to play with the throttle to keep it running when you first start it.it idles right away.im liking that
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WILL CHANGING FROM A MSD BOX TO A GM MODULE EFFECT MY TIMING,DOES IT NEED TO BE CHECKED OR RESET?
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A four pin HEI module does not retard timing. If you get a five pin module, the fifth pin, when grounded, will retard the timing by five degrees. The module does this in concert with a knock sensor and timing control. It's a nice feature for when you might be in a situation, like a race car, where your timing is optimized for the run but is too far advanced for starting.
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The reason i asked about the timing is im getting a backfire and i dont know why.would the initial timing be different
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Any time you change between boxes you should recheck the timing. My MSD 6AL-2 boxes are 4* different. Joe-JDC
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As Joe suggests, you should check the timing. Under what conditions is it backfiring? Is the sound coming from the intake or the exhaust? Are you running + battery voltage to the B terminal of the module and that wire also feeds the coil+?
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it backfires randomly while idling or at low rpms and it backfires when it idles down from a rev.could low fuel pressure cause this,i was worried the foam in my tank might have stopped up my holley black fuel pump.but i havent checked the timing either.
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Any time you change between boxes you should recheck the timing. My MSD 6AL-2 boxes are 4* different. Joe-JDC
This, very much. And check your wire polarity on any mag pickup as it can vary between models. Get them backwards and you get all kinds of weird behavior.
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it backfires randomly while idling or at low rpms and it backfires when it idles down from a rev.could low fuel pressure cause this,i was worried the foam in my tank might have stopped up my holley black fuel pump.but i havent checked the timing either.
Okay. I think I know what's going on. Make sure you have the distributor wires on the correct module terminals. If you reverse the wires, the ignition timing ends up very advanced. Most people don't know how the pickup works and how the module interprets the signal. It's electromagnetism, so it just works mysteriously. All modules work on the same "zero voltage" principle. As the reluctor approaches the pickup's magnetic field, a negative signal is generated, then zero voltage when the reluctor is centered on the pickup's magnetic field, then voltage rises as it continues to pass center and out of the field. It is the negative to positive swing over zero voltage that produces the ignition signal. If the wires are reversed so that the signal goes positive first, the unit will trigger early (as the rotor approaches the pickup). This will cause early timing. The trigger point will change depending on RPM, as higher RPM will create higher voltages.
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its wired up like the diagram says,i cleaned the foam out of my tank,new filter and cleaned holley fuel pump,put new plugs in and it quit backfiring.dont know if it was fuel related or if i had a bad plug or plug wire connection.i remember i went for a ride a couple years ago and it started backfiring.i went home and found a plug wire off.
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everything is running good now,i checked my timing,it was over 3 degree more advanced than it was with the box.it was 33 before and almost 37 after switching to a module.i backed it back down to 33 and now its so responsive you would think its a small block.